Cantousent

More tactical combat where it doesn't feel like everything devolves into a dog pile almost immediately. More advantages for players who actually use positioning.

Thanks for the tip, Karkarov. I finished everything on the map with the cultist dungeon. I thought the spiders were actually quite easy. On normal, I only had two people drop during the battle with the spider queen and finished off all of the spiders without incident. I actually was so surprised at how much easier they were than the cultist that I went to the main menu and checked to make sure I hadn't accidently played on easy. On the other hand, I did the cultists first and had two full level advances with my party between the two spots, so maybe it's a matter of the first one being harder just 'cause. I killed off all the beetles and wolves. My first battle with the beetles was tough, but then I got the hang of how combat works. If I played on hardcore or whatever it is that kills folks who get knocked out, then I clearly would have had to be a lot more careful. ...But, although I find it fun, combat is clearly just messed up. They have a lot of tweaking to do.

I feel for you using the tablet. I've posted a couple of times from my phone, and it's a real bitch. Anyhow, I'm one of the folks who wants to keep the main title more 'elusive' and less 'epic,' but I can see using music to help create the mood. I think I read somewhere, maybe here, that melodramas, both before and after the rise of cinema, used a lot of music in the way you describe. Even though it's kind of fallen out of vogue in movies, melodramatic music has a big role in TV shows today. In particular, I'm quite fond of the LOST soundtrack. Some films still have that heavy melodramatic feel to the music, such as There Will Be Blood. A lot of movies and TV shows also have music that is more background as you describe, AL. I think having some really heavy (or sorrowful or playful) tunes could be helpful as long as it's not overdone. Like you said, once in a while. You just don't want the listener to become tired of the music over time. Personally, I didn't much care for the main BG theme, but I think that's because it's so in your face and I had to hear it in long stretches. If it had been played more sparingly, or even if the arrangement gave the listener a breather every now and then, I think I would have enjoyed it more over time.

Something a lot of folks have mentioned is getting XP from steps of a quest line rather than only upon completing the entire line. Actually, that's how the quests work in the demo right now. I've got to be getting close to the end, and I've noticed various spots where I get XP. In a full game, I think we'd be getting XP regularly and quite often with multiple quest lines going concurrently. I seriously don't think folks will lose all incentive to kill, especially after combat gets tweaked. I've been smiting baddies all over and I usually clear the map. I don't kill the deer and random villagers and the like, but I do kill all hostiles in a map and I did that in everywhere I've been in the demo. I like the combat, but it's weird and still too prone to becoming a orgiastic experience of constant cluster ****ritude. If they can make it so that positioning is easier, or even possible in the first place, then I'll be a lot happier.

I guess I might be, but this time it would mistaken judgment rather than being wrong about the actual thread. :D I guess that is a general suggestion, but I'll leave it here and post other such things in the other thread in the future.

If you've completely cleared a dungeon, doors and whatnot should stay as you left them. If there isn't anyone to close it, the secret doors you open should stay open unless it's clear there is a mechanism that closes it automatically.

Okay, I got to the big final battle in the cultist dungeon. I knew I was borrowing trouble, but I didn't rest before I went into a room that clearly was going to be filled with belligerents. So, no mage spells at all. The dialogue choices I made resulted in all of the folks in the room when I entered died. First thing is, and I know someone in this thread or another mentioned this, but the *missing string* archers are brutal. Whatever bleed effect they put on the characters is twelve kinds of ugly. So, I lose my PC knocked down right away. My rogue gets it next, even though I'm trying to disengage, she had the bleed effect of doom and goes down like a two bit whore in a twelve dollar whore house. My priest who has actually managed to get off a few healing spells decides to visit Uncle Dirtnap. At about the same time, or maybe even just slightly sooner, my fighter succumbs to the victory button bleed effect. Now, not everything was because of the bleed effect. The boss is a caster and his spell *hurt.* Anyhow, by the time the priest and fighter go down, the boss and the cultists are gone, so it's just melee and ranged guys left. My BB mage and the Paladin I *hired* take out everyone. Here's what's weird, the Paladin didn't even take any stamina damage at all. I should, by all rights, have lost that fight in the condition my merry band enjoyed when I entered the room, but they all leveled when my quest technically finished before the battle. So I leveled everyone. It didn't get my spells back, but it might have messed up something so my Paladin laughed off effects. I might go back and redo the battle and see if I can replicate it, but my Pally *has* gone down before. Hmmmm

EDIT: Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread. :Cant's embarrassed icon:

A great moment in the demo: 2. (murder someone) [rational - minor] What's funny is that it *is* a rational (if cold blooded) decision. If it comes up in the game and we have the same choices, I'll have a hard time deciding what to do. I find the dilemma quite interesting. The whole area is weird. Kind of makes you feel like taking a shower after you've cleared it. Well done, though. Of course, now I have to return the game where I have a feeling I'm going get my ass kicked. :Cant's eying the bad guys warily icon:

Personally, I like the combat and have gone out of my way to kill specific groups in the demo, basically anyone I view as hostile, on principle. I agree with Tart, who is basically giving a stock answer to the question of logic as regards experience. The reason it's a stock answer is because it's the most sensible one, namely that experience is and will always be removed to some degree from reality no matter what. How realistic the devs get will always be balanced by their vision about what will make the game fun and serve their artistic vision. ...And Sawyer has always seemed primarily concerned with combat systems and character parity. I think too much so sometimes. ...But it's not like the system came from someone who hates combat and only cares about the dialogue or story elements. That doesn't mean his vision is therefore necessarily correct, but it does mean that at least one person who likes combat doesn't feel shafted by quest only XP: the lead designer. I will admit something, however. Even though I have been against 'kill XP' for years, I was playing the demo last night and I saw that I was sooooo close to leveling. I wondered how many mooks I'd have to kill to level so that I could go into a tougher area. lol So, even the quest XP crowd has been habituated in how it views combat XP. On the other hand, while this does admit that I wanted to level and had to remember I couldn't do it with a quick killing spree, it also shows the effects kill XP has on our actions by incentivizing us to play a certain way. That's the biggest reason I disagree with folks who claim that kill XP doesn't alter the game for anyone else. Of course it does.

Also, I think the quicksave confirmation should not only be floating text but also in the game log.

It's funny, since I turn on the game and then end up leaving my computer, I'm sure my account makes it look like I've played hours and hours of the beta, but I've probably only logged about ten max. I've finally gotten into juggling my inventory and I have some things I think they should fix. First of all, I want to say that I *don't* hate the stash, but I think it is flawed. 1 If we're in a non-stash area, put up a boilerplate box warning us that anything we put in the stash will stay there because we're in a non-stash access area. 2 For the love of God, let us decide where things go in the stash. Some things I put in there to dump, some things I put in there to hold. I want to know where stuff is at a glance because of the slots I use. This won't be as big an issue when we have something other than spaceholder icons, but it will stay an issue for me nonetheless. 3 In terms of our inventory sheet, give us the numbers behind the stats we see. I'm sure there's a reason my BB Wizard has more DT than my PC Wizard although both are wearing the same armor (exactly the same, including the ex in exceptional scale). However, I don't want to have to hunt down the specific reason when a tool-tip or right click would work nicely. 4 the stash should be accessible in *any* non combat area. It's idiotic that I should have to rent a room to access my stash. I look at the stash as the stuff I stick in my backpack. It makes sense that I don't have time to root around in my saddle bag during combat. It makes less sense that I can't root around in my backpack while I'm sitting at the bar. I'm sure the tenth level barmaid will be patient enough to withhold her attacks to give me time to dig up some coin.

I don't know if the beta is a good idea or not, although I know that including the beta in the kickstarter phase undoubtedly netted Obsidian more money. I don't agree with every design decision, but I tell you one thing, from my perspective, the beta backer has bolstered my confidence *considerably.* I only played a tiny amount the first time, and I was not particularly impressed. Of course, I almost always hate betas/demos/unfinished products so I wasn't worried. After the patch, I decided to really sit down to play it. Once you ignore obvious bugs, most of which are already known and which folks have already reported, this is a fun game. When you get a handle on it, the combat is a lot of fun. Yeah, I wish it weren't quite so brutal on sleeping, and I think some of the special effects are annoying (especially the fast acting beetle poison), and I think Might is a stupid name for something that grants both magical damage bonuses as well as physical ones, but all the warts on balance have not hindered my enjoyment. I have become much more enthusiastic about the game because of the beta. ...And, sure, the voices of complaint are louder in this forum. When have they not been? It's good that folks complain. Maybe they'll win over the devs, maybe not, but at least they can't claim they were stifled or that they didn't know what was coming. From my perspective, I'm glad they included the beta, and I didn't even think I'd try it until I read that they weren't going to include spoilerish stuff. I'm especially happy with the cultish dungeon thing whatever it is. Some really good stuff in there and I've already made one dialogue decision that dead ended the conversation. I didn't go back. I didn't reload. I figure that I'll play through more than once and what I miss now I'll get later.

If we're to have cake, can I interest you in a beer?

Have fun on the road trip, Marceror. I'll voice my gratitude for Sensuki and Matt516. People like you will end up transforming game design. Enthusiasts who can contribute for no other reason than love of the game.

Prime attributes certainly had a significant effect on DC if nothing else. In fact, it becomes the biggest chunk of the DC for your spells.

I don't mind having an attribute that governs physical and magical prowess. I simply find it offputting that it is called 'Might.' I know that might can reference more than physical strength, but in a fantasy RPG, I associate it with muscle. I think of 'Might and Magic.' I firmly believe, and I may be wrong of course, that *a lot* of players will come in and run afoul of the Might attribute because they'll have the same intuitive thought. Call it Soul Power or something is all I'm saying. Not everyone who plays will be a number crunching game theorist. Folks will learn, but why use a term that, by common use, is so weighted towards physical attributes?

I've now gone through several groups of cultists without resting. I'm sure that wouldn't be exactly feasible on hard, but I don't care. I always run every game on normal to get a feel for the 'baseline' gameplay. I thought resting would be more of a burden going by what I'd read. However, combat still feels... weird. It's enjoyable, especially as I'm using spells and making choices that work out, but my party's health keeps ticking down and I'm running out of people who can realistically tank. I created a wizard, who is sadly inferior to the generic wizard, partly because he doesn't have as many spells and, frankly, because I was ignorant of spells I would most need. I hired a paladin who has come in handy for healing and can tank decently also. The fighter is the best tank by far, and I often end up running like hell with someone who's getting the chop. The beetles, as it seems to me, are tougher than the cultist, but the cultist are far more ubiquitous. Anyhow, still clearing out this ruins place. I found a place to use the grappling hook but I'm saving it until everything else is cleared.

Sadly, I haven't read the whole thread, which I'll admit now. I'm going to contribute my opinion and where it overlaps with other views, take it as supportive. I didn't want to get too far into the beta at first, but folks kept saying that it wouldn't spoil the game. When I did first start it, I thought combat was clunky and it was hard to get into it, but that's usually true of most RPGs for me. RPGs require more from the player than most other games. It's not just learning the ropes for combat, but getting into the setting and developing a feel for the characters and whatnot. This is especially hard in a beta, particularly if the devs keep out the juicy stuff soas not to spoil the fun for folks who don't want to get into the juicy stuff until the full product ships. After the beta patch I started again. Unlike before, I'm using my spells and developing tactics. I'm really getting into it now. I probably won't play anything other than normal for the beta, but the battles are fun right now. I won't play like a murderous wretch in the full game, but to get a feel for combat I killed Nyfre and her mooks as well as Medreth and his thugs. Then I killed off a bunch of beetles and then a bunch of cultists. I appreciated the various ways of getting into the ruins. I have not been more optimistic about the game as I am right now. It has warts, but it's coming together.

Just got the chance to address the beetle problem. The poison is, indeed, brutal, but no deaths from it. I used a ton of heals and the rogue went down, but I took out one group and then picked off a loner to get a nice spot o' earth to call my own long enough to sleep and get the spells back. I don't think it's too bad, but it does look like a lot of sleeping, as others have noticed. I'm going to clear out all beetles just for the hell of it, but I do like to have areas by and large cleaned of enemies just in case I need to scour it for one reason or another later.

Finally got back to the game and I'm preparing to go to the Forest of Borean Beetles. Anyhow, I had some loot to pawn, so I went to the sale-bot. just a quick question, is the *missing string* a special bow enhancement item? <.< :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

I get what Sawyer says in the video, but I would observe two things about the idea of dex or wis: dexterity, as a broad category, reflects the idea of both the ability to dodge and the ability to work well with your hands. Wisdom is intuitively tied to priests and elders as well as the willpower to live by that wisdom. Sure, you could divide them out more, but it's simply not as jarring to have them lumped together. Might imparted by souls yielding stronger power to spells strikes me as an after the fact argument to support the decision to monkey around with the attribute system. My biggest problem is getting my head around the idea of Might imparting physical prowess as a result of a strong soul and someone who has a great physique from working out all the time. As an aside, as much as I hate the idea that Might ended up being the way it did won't stop me from enjoying the game, but I'll always think it seems a bit contrived, at the very least by the choice of the term Might. However, I resent like hell that we didn't get to see the damned cat. I was listening to the video and actually scrolled up to see the cat. Rat bastard!

I decided that, since this isn't really *playing* the game so much as testing it, I would simply kill both sides. Medreth is a far tougher fight and I don't even think he and his mooks have better stuff. I don't know, the battles seem too long and the aoe thing kind of gets a little on my nerves, but I think I'm getting more used to the system and the battles are becoming more entertaining. At least I'm using up my spell reserves. The one thing I will say about Medreth is that I didn't start out the battle tactically positioned this time, whereas Nyfre and her band are in an enclosed space with a doorway to block egress. So it's a little easier tactically to spam aoe spells without having overlap either on beneficial or harmful effects. I'm going to rest up and head out to administer beetle beat down.

I don't think I have anything new to add, so I'll just reiterate some arguments in support of their points. Might has non physical connotations, but it by and large seems to be commonly used in reference to physical prowess. As such, it's jarring to have it affect my spells in better ways than intelligence, since I think sheer spell power has been more important in what I've played so far than increasing the aoe (which just hits more of my people anyway) or duration. If Might covers the power of the soul, then how do they represent actual physical strength? The idea that all races are roughly the same strength is idiotic. Members of the same species vary *wildly* in strength. If we're to gauge intelligence in the game, why the hell are we not doing so for sheer physical power? It is so absolutely counter-intuitive to use the term 'Might' to represent magical ability that I can't help but find it distracting every time I look at my character sheet. I could accept it, but I'll always look on it as a design flaw and simply ridiculous.

I've had similar thoughts about the plants as you, Fiebras, but I don't think they need to be highlighted so much as the player should know right off the bat to keep an eye out for prominent looking bushes and other things that are harvestable. That way the player is rewarded for keeping an eye on the scenery, which really encourages folks to enjoy the beautiful artwork also. :Cant's sight seeing icon: