Ganrich

Yup, I'm pretty sure it's an approval thing, but I still wonder if they drag their feet updating the total funding and stagger them a little here and a little there. It keeps the campaign chugging along, and like I said previously it is a good carrot on a stick scenario for those that haven't pledged or those looking at add-ons. I expect we will probably get near to double our current pledges. Add on that $800k and you are looking at over $4m. Which isn't including PayPal whenever they get that sorted. We will see. We are only around 3k backers away from beating Psychonauts which is the most backed game on Fig. It ended with $3.8m in funding. I think we might get close to 30k backers in the end. Maybe more.

It means they are only willing to take 2 million worth of investor money. Once they hit 2 million mark they won't be taking any more money from investors. So the current 1.18M is actually what they have gotten and there's still 800k left if people want to invest. If you click on the invest page you will see that they have hit the $2m cap. Anyone Investing now is put on a first come first serve waiting list. So, they are either trickling them out, or they are waiting for approval.

That's how I am reading it. I believe the Investors must be approved, and are waiting for that approval before being added to the total. It wouldn't surprise me if they used it as a boost between stretch goals either. For instance, they don't post all the approved ones at the time, but when we around getting close to halfway to the next stretch goal they update one or two of them to get us closer. That would kind of put a carrot on a stick for people to grab addons and or finally pledge. Especially if the upcoming goal is enticing to someone. That could be me being cynical though. lol

The goal was hit at 4PM PST. Most places are still at the office at 4PM. However, I gave up after it wasn't up when the most recent update hit. They will do it in about 9+ hours.

Yup, I just want something more detailed before I update the OP. I'm a bit disappointed by it, but oh well. What can you do?

That update is amazing. I mean I'm excited about every letter on that page.

So, an interesting update to the Deadfire Figstarter campaign... They have a $2m cap on investors of which only $1.18m has been applied to the total. They have hit that $2m cap already, and any further investments are put in a first come first serve order. So, they probably already have another $820k or so just waiting for approval. That means that technically they are around $3.2m with 15 days left even though they are only at $2.4m on the main page. The people waiting in line will fill the void of anyone not approved, and there are another 15 days if not. They will probably beat the record for Fig which was Psychonauts iirc, and quite possibly get more funding than the first PoE did. This isn't including PayPal since it isn't up yet on the backer portal for those where that is their only option or refuse to use Fig.

I'm excited that spell casting times will be increased for certain spells, and that interrupt both cancels the cast and consumes the spell. Interrupts will probably be pretty good in this game. Also, this will give Resolve much more weight when building a caster if AI decides to peck at them with interrupt abilities.

They took the regular off of GoG a while back, iirc. It's Enhanced only from here on out. Which is sad. If you already purchased the original then you still have it of course.

Good points. My only issue is that you even if you focus on low level phrases and casting Invocations the time to build still creates issues for higher level Invocations in most fights. Which is part of the issue of the odd way phrases become longer and Invocations become more expensive. Dragons Trashed is easily the best ability the Chanter has. It is way too OP. Can the class be played without it? Sure, but that doesn't make it an ok spell to have in the game. The frost chant is fine, and that's because it's balanced by movement. You don't just walk in and kill stuff. Simultaneously, another critique of the class that I missed on my initial post is how much more limiting (very few options) both Invocations and Phrases become at higher levels. I can't help but think that the class isn't being given the same amount of focus as others. On the note of Empower. How would a Chant focused Chanter even use them? I figured it would be a toggle for the next ability/Spell, but that means a Chant focused Chanter couldn't use them. Perhaps, you activate Empower and it kicks in when the next Phrase starts? I'm unsure. Just something to think on, I guess. Also, with Power levels and scaling abilities in Deadfire, do we need multiple levels of Phrases? Couldn't they all be level 1 and scale in effectiveness? Then have Talents to further augment them (possibly at the expense of their cast time) in terms of effectiveness, accuracy, damage, etc. It allows what you want, and what I want. We have a frost Phrase we can select at level 1 that doesn't small damage amounts and hobbles, and shortly after a talent that increases its (or Chants in general to keep talent bloat down) potency but causes increased cast time. Or, the other way around, and a Talent that reduces your Chant potency, but speeds it up in building Invocations. This makes Talents the deciding factor vs more powerful Chants and more usage of Invocations.

They can retain all that with talents, though. A talent that adds a damage component to Chants, but increases your time to generate Chant counters. Now the Chants can be buff/Debuff only and the talent can make it do damage, but slowing invocation time. We don't need an overturned Dragons Thrashed, though. This isn't an "either or" situation. We can have the Chanter be more passive and talents that allow him to be more active, or vice versa. The class needs more than one way to play it, but not at the risk forsaking its design. Also, in PoE one Vancian Casters had to conserve spells for bigger/boss fights because of per-rest limitations, or run back to get more camp supplies. Now they don't. So, now a Priest can dump buffs and debuffs every fight. What is the point of a Chanter that barely can cast Invocations when his forte is being done just as well by a Priest? Add a Wizard or Druid to that, and the Chanter has nothing but summons and you won't get the chance to cast those in most cases. Sure, a Chanter being present means you can focus on different spells for your Vancian Casters, but what's wrong with being able to make your Chanter have a different focus if you already have a Vancian Caster in your party? Even with longer fights those Invocations are often too late in the fight to be of real value. I am not advocating for the removal of the passive play style, but advocating for the ability to build it more active than it is now. I don't want to lose anything, but add to what is already there. Edit: I'm not even considering subclasses here. They could definitely pull the class toward a more active play style or a more passive. The passive having damage components to its Chants.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. I was just clarifying that I don't want Ancient Memory gone. It's cool, and unique to Chanters. Then I decided to reiterate on the need for more of that. I wasn't implying you didn't agree. I should have been more clear.

I remember Josh saying "If you want a passive Fighter you can build it that way, but if you want a more active Fighter then you can build that too." I want that kind of versatility with every class. If I want a Chanter with powerful Chants, but doesn't use Invocations as often, I can build that. If I want the Chanter to be a more active play style then I can build that. No class should be a mandated "set it and forget it" class. My main gripe is Dex being useless because it creates a single build type. How do I build a Chanter? Spec tank. Every time. @Boeroer - I don't want Ancient Memory to be removed. It's a cool ability. I do think that with the scaling in Deadfire that Beloved Spirits isn't necessary. I just think the class needs more Talents. 2 is a pittance for a single class. I can't think of another class that doesn't get a solid number of Talents to really tweak its play style.

Furthermore, since talents are pretty limited resource I think there shouldn’t even be talents that upgrade other talents. It should automatically improve with your level if the power is not too strong on its own at later levels. It’s like learning, say, Cure 1, Cure 2, Cure 3… sure they might be different spells but that’s just boring. IMO, it’s also a lazy design to pad the number of talents. I agree. The class needs some padding of it's talent numbers, though. Lol. You are right though. It's boring.

Yeah, I'm definitely not arguing from the stance of power in PoE1. They aren't weak by any stretch. I just think I need to clarify that. They are just a bit of a one trick pony. Max Strenth, Intellect, Res. Dump Dex, leave Con at 10, rest of points in Perception. Give heavy armor and a 1 handed weapon with shield. Pick Talents for defence and select Sdionc of FLame or equivalent. Select Dragons Thrashed when available, or build your Chillfog Chanter.

I agree. I would make scripted interactions and maybe even special weapon artwork of the same watercolor style as the portraits. A consistent art style across all of those things would be good.

So, in the thread "Summoner Class" (link below) people expressed issues with Chanters being the summoners of PoE. I expressed my opinions there that Chanters are off in terms of design, but I don't want to derail that thread further in case it resurfaces. So, I decided to create a new thread that lets me list issues I believe the class has in terms of form and function. This thread isn't a pro vs anti summoner debate, but is to discuss issues with the class and potential ways to remedy it. So, without further ado I am going to list my grievances. If you have any to add please do, and I hope for some counter points as well. WALL OF TEXT INBOUND!!!!! 1) It doesn't see benefits from Dexterity. Dexterity is almost 100% dump-city. Dex reduces the down time after using an Invocation, and outside of PotD the use of Invocations is rare. Of course, it will reduce attack speed, but since your attacks will be mediocre at best it is best to build a tank. (maxing Resolve and Intellect). In fact, very few builds I have seen don't include near maxing of Might, Int, Res. Con isn't needed, but shouldn't be dumped, and Perception is much the same way. However, the class does benefit from Perception for its offensive Chants vs enemies to land. So, because its main stay abilities aren't effected by Dex, it tends to be dumped. Most other classes gain greater benefits from Dex either through attack speed for the mundane classes, or reduced cast times for casters. In the end, this runs counter to Josh's philosophy on Attributes as it creates a very effective dump stat. 2) Build time for Invocations, in its current state with PoE1, nearly requires long fights. On lower difficulties it becomes rare that the Chanter actually gets to the point of casting Invocations. When they do the fight tends to be over anyway, and the invocations are used for cleanup. So, this further reduces the necessity of Dex. The solution in the first game was a passive called Brisk Recitation which reduces the speed at which chants are spoken, and thus reduces the time needed to cast those invocations. However, this means that Chanters don't really start using Invocations (on most difficulties) until later in the game, and even then its late in the combat or in a boss fight. 3) A severe lack of Class specific talents. This class has 2 talents. That is the equivalent to the special talents available to a single Paladin Order. There are 5 Orders (*2 talents per Order = 10) for a Paladin to choose from, and the Chanter class gets 2 talents, period. One gives a passive heal when you are Chanting, and the other buffs that same heal. This class needs some talents that let players pull it in different directions. To some extent, this could alleviate the previous two points, but I don't believe any class should require talents to fix a design flaw. That is me. YMMV. 4) This is less a critique of of Chanters, but a change in Deadfire. Vancian magic is out, and per encounter is in. Now, the first game had a balance. Druids, Wizards, and Priests were incentivized to be conservative in their casting because of limited per rest casts and Ciphers/Chanters had to build their resource to cast their spells. With the removal of per-rest abilities the Chanter could easily slip behind the other casters just because they can dump everything on the field, and their only likely inhibiting factor will be per-encounter and cast speed. So, those are my issues with the class. Now, we have a few more changes in Deadfire that I would like to bring up. We have Power Source and Power Level (Spirits for the Chanter). We also have Empower, which is a one time boost in Power Level for an ability/spell. These things need to be kept in mind in any proposals we make on this thread. I have done my best to consider them here, but they don't effect a whole heck of a lot that I am proposing. Now, lets move to remedies and ideas. These are in the same order as my issues with the class. 1) Make Dex effect chant speed. It doesn't make logical sense in terms of verisimilitude, but it would alleviate Dex being a dump to an extent. And if we are being honest... verisimilitude was out the door a long time ago with the Attributes of PoE. (Not a complaint, but stating a fact) If a chant takes 4 seconds with a 2 second linger. I would let Dex reduce the chant time by its normal amount. If I have an 18 Dex (24% attack speed) then I would make the Chant time to 3.04 seconds, but still set linger based on the 4 second base cast time. I still think that Chant counters are a bit long, but this is more to give Dex some more meaning to the Chanter. This would allow you to decrease cast times via dex, increase linger via intellect, or both. Of course, Dex reducing down time from using an Invocation would still occur. This removes the need for Brisk Recitation to a large degree, but it may still be needed to a smaller degree if the current build system remains. 2) Build times for Invocation usage may still be longer than desired even with my previous recommendation. I particularly think having Chant Phrases get longer as you use higher level Phrases is problematic, but with Brisk Recitation it becomes less so. So, perhaps changing the details of Brisk Recitation might be necessary. Reduce the amount it does, but keep it in the game. However, I would posture that it might be wise to make the Chant itself the equivalent of a level 1 Phrase in PoE, and then let players select from a pool of Phrases. One idea I have is that the chanter can only have X amount of Phrases in a Chant, but the more potent Chants cost more to that limit. For instance, "Thick Grew Their Tongues" would cost 1, but "Sure-Handed Ila" costs 2. However, they both build chant counters at the same rate. The Chanter can have 3 Phrases running, but since Sure-Handed Ila cost 2 it can only have it and 1 other weaker chant running. So, instead of sacrificing the power of a Phrase vs the use of invocations... you are sacrificing versatility for power. You could even have phrases be run simultaneously to further bring this power level idea in line. So, Thick Grew Their Tongues, Dull the Edge, and Blessed was Wengridh all work concurrently vs consecutively. Which would mean more powerful phrases are spoken by themselves, or with one other lower level phrase depending on the potency of the phrase. Just an idea, but not entirely thought out. Recommendations are welcome. IMHO, Chants should be entirely buffs/debuffs. Things like Dragons Thrashed need to be Invocations. That's just my opinion. The exception to this would be the Come Soft Winds of Death recommendation below. The walking death ball that is a Dragons Thrashed build is just silly. 3) Talents... I could go all day on this topic (I kind of do here lol). Ancient Memory gives a HoT aspect to your Chants, and Beloved Spirits makes it better. That's all Chanters get. Otherwise they select from Generic talents available to all classes. A) So, keeping with Ancient Memory's theme. I propose "Come, Come Soft Winds of Death" be removed from Phrases, and made into an opposing type of talent to Ancient Memory. Any time the Chanter is Chanting that small amount of damage is applied to any enemy within the Chant radius. B) A Talent that allows a low level invocation to be cast immediately upon entering battle. This could be specific to a type of invocations. Like one talent for Summons, and one for Damage, another for buffs/debuffs, etc. C) A Talent that (once per encounter) allows the Chanter to cast from a scroll without consuming it. D) A Talent that reduces Chant Radius or increases invocation requirements, but gives the Chanter's weapon added Elemental Damage. E) A Talent that lowers Chant requirements of a specific Invocation. Similar to Spell Mastery for the Vancian Casters in PoE1. This would let the Chanter cast that Invocation(s) more frequently than others. F) and so forth and so on. I'm sure there are ideas I have missed, but the Chanter needs more Talents specific to them. Add some below.These are just ideas, and some could be set up to be either or selections. Like example A could be you choose the path of Ancient Memory/Beloved Spirits, OR the path of Come, Come Soft Winds of Death/and whatever its boosting Talent may be. These ideas would allow a more competent summoner build, or a better caster build, and perhaps a Gish build that doesn't involve full tank stats in order to spam Dragons Thrashed in the middle of all the enemies. 4) Vancian vs Per Encounter - I don't think I need to say more here. The Chanter worked because of the limitations of the Vancian system to a degree. Without those limitations it will likely be obsolete because Priests, Wizards, and Druids would just dump everything every combat and make its build time a handicap of the highest order. (The Chanter also worked because a couple of its late game Phrases are too good like Dragons Thrashed). Unless the concept is simple to have an incredibly passive design for a caster. In which case, success has been obtained. Anyway, this is just a list of ideas. I expect some push and pull from anyone who cares about the class be you a person that wants a better summoner, buffer, debuffer, another Gish, or what have you.

Yeah, that's more or less how I see it. Chanters are almost the only class that can dump dexterity with no major ramifications as it still effects the cast speed of every other caster and Invocations are too few for it to matter. Every build is a Tank (might, intellect, and resolve are maxed or near maxed), leave con around 10 and perception at 10+. They have two class specific talents, and those aren't too interesting. Their Chants take forever to build, and now with Vancian casters not being limited by per rest they are going to need a boost imho. Brisk Recitation won't help their viability at low level or on lower difficulties. Ciphers should be ok, but it will effect them too. Just not as much. I am working on a Chanter specific thread on this topic that will go into the GD section. I hope to have it up tonight, but we will see. Come by and check it out, and lets brainstorm ideas. I'm sure Josh has it sorted out, but it couldn't hurt.

This. With Vancian casters moving to per encounter I think we will need to see revamps of the Cipher and Chanter at the minimum. The trade off was once spell management vs resource management. Now, Druids, Wizards, and Priests can dump spells with little repercussion while (if the old resource systems don't change) the ciphers and Chanters could fall behind building up. So, that said, as a part two to your question: What will the devs do to keep this from occurring? Will they speed up resource gain? Will they increase Cipher weapon DPS? Will they increase Chant effect?

Yeah, spell differences via deity would be cool. You know they could have two subclasses of Paladin. One being defensive and another offensive as an example. You select the subclass and it gives you a smaller subset of the Orders to select from. Then they could further flavor your Order via talents like in PoE. So, the subclass dictates certain things, and the deity gives talents to further flavor it. EG. Select the defensive Subclass and you can select from Shieldbearer, Wayfarer, and Darcozzi. Select offensive and you can select from Bleak Walkers, Goldpact, and they could give us access to Pallegina's order or create another. The same could be done with Priests and their deity. Although, you probably wouldn't split their two subclasses by defense and offense. It doesn't sound like they are doing this, but a guy can dream.

I felt the same. I am still waiting for a bit before making any snap judgements. I wish we knew more. I am ready to hear about the subclasses.

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up. Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits. Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses. Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure. That is why I haven't put more than I have. Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change. YMMV, on that assumption.

When was this?I specifically remember a series called Ultima which didn't get enough sequels. O_o Oh, and Wing Commander. I miss you OSI. EA has forsaken us. Lol Edit: Petition supported.

I doubt 17/1 will be very viable. I expect talents that are locked to having a Max power source (discipline, rage, etc) in a class. Those will make that single dip much less appealing. AD&D had scaling for some spells. Magic Missile, Fireball, etc all scaled. So, lower level casters that multiclassed had spells that weren't as good if they multiclassed. We don't know how scaling works. We just know its there. It's throwing the baby out with the bath water to say any multiclass build is better than a pure at this point. We have zero information. That said, I definitely want more talents and skills, but I think the AD&D system is akin to just too rigid. Let players experiment. Half the fun of PoEs system was neat builds, and carrying that tradition over to the sequel but cranking it to 11 is something that I think would be better. To each their own.

New companion is a Wendersnaven as a nod to a previous Obsidian title.