Ganrich

Not bad. I made the recommendation early on in PoE1 that Chanters should get a specific talent that lets them cast from a scroll once per encounter without consuming it. Combined with deep pockets it would have made the Chanters a good bit more active without constantly making scrolls. Imho, Deep Pockets is a must on Chanters anyway, but ymmv. However, scrolls are getting an overhaul. Josh said somewhere that he doesn't want them casting spells available to any classes. That could make that Bard-like idea incredibly viable, or make it much less so. We don't know enough to say. I think he said this about scrolls on one of his SomethingAwful posts. I think the class needs to be able to be made to have the potential to be much more active, and invocations need to be useable at lower difficulties (as I said above). This should be regardless of whether you want summons or not. Having a class that doesn't use half its features because of difficulty isn't good design. Half the fights in PoE are over, or close enough as to not matter, before you have the Chants to cast. This is even worse with higher level Invocations. Y Maybe, instead of Chants building counters based on saying the phrases over time, you could increase the counters based on number of targets effected by the Chant? Then increase the required number of counters to cast Invocations as necessary. That way, it is less time based, and more positional. You could even increase counts if the Chanter is mixing buffs and debuffs, or if they aren't spamming the same phrase repeatedly. I don't know. Just some ideas.

Yeah, no class should be designed for PotD only. It's a bad design, and one of the few in PoE one. Which is why I have no issue calling it out. The class becomes less and less effective the lower the difficulty is set. Brisk Recitation is like putting duct tape on a leaky pipe. All it does is temporarily alleviate the leak, but you still see water on the floor after a while. The class needs another look to make it fun for everyone regardless of difficulty preferences. I waffle between Hard and PotD depending on play throughs. One of those makes Chanter less viable.

I think build diversity should outweigh balance in this regard. With the 3rd edition system I can make a Chanter and focus on it with a few levels of Ghost Heart Ranger and have a pseudo necroranger. While focusing on Chanter mostly I will lean toward spell casting, but be competent with ranged weapons and my pet summon will be ok. If I go the other route, I'll have less spell casting, but have much better ranged attacks and my pet will be better. With the AD&D system it will always be an even split, and at that point the only thing that will change the Multiclass's forte will be attributes and maybe gear. The 3.0 system will add more build diversity, and that to me means it will increase replayability by a greater margin. That's a good thing. Especially in an RPG. Does every permutation of a Multiclass need to be equal? No. As long as the design goal of being viable is still reached then it is fine if one combo is lesser than another. If one combo outshines another... then it really doesn't matter since it's a single player game. Most games of PoE I don't care if I'm 100% optimized, but that the build is fun and viable. Edit: Another perk to the 3rd edition way of doing things is if I want a 50/50 character... it's still an option.

@SaruNi - they absolutely could do that with subclasses. Have a Summoner sublcass and have all summons cost one less Chant in order to cast them. While simultaneously they could do the same for other Invocations in a more Bard-like subclass. I really think the class needs tweaking regardless of what it's subclasses are though. The higher level phrases causing slower building of its resource vs a lower level sounds neat on paper, but doesn't work well in practice.

Back to level 1.

Little reason for them to do a Linux version, but they did that. In fairness, Linux users usually back crowdfunding and humble bundles pretty well. They may not be many, but they have deep pockets. It might not sell well once on Linux, but I'm sure that enough backers from Linux justified the expense. Also, I play the first game on my Linux based steam machine. So, I take advantage of it. Lol

You know... Thinking on it, with the new Power Source (Spirits in the case of Chanters) being used as a level scaling mechanic, we could no longer have Phrases separated by levels. Combine that with the change to buffs and debuffs that will simplify them we could be looking at selecting phrases as we level, but having access to all of them from level one on. Or, perhaps, the phrases aren't lock by "spell" level, but require the appropriate Spirit level to obtain. This could mean that since there would be no more high level chants Vs low level chants that Chants build at a standard rate at all levels. I don't know. It might make both sides of this party more content with the Chanter.

@KaineParker - You are right, but if you play without summons you become a ****ty sorcerer that happens to never cast an invocation save on boss fights and PotD. This critique applies with summon builds too, but at least that is a unique attribute among the casters. The ramp up mechanic is still long, and Brisk Recitation is a bandaid that comes into its own a bit late into the game. I think no matter which way you look at it the Chanter needs some changes, or at least more talents to specialize it. It gets 2 class specific talents, and they both add healing when you're chanting.

Yup, but I'm waiting for details on those subclasses so I can add to them instead of removing them outright. I doubt they will be exactly the same as PoE1's Orders and Deity selections. This is more for information consolidation than just new info.

I agree on Druids, but obviously there are some things changing in Deadfire, and this seems more logical. So, the suggestion is worth posting. If summons change then I say this is a logical step, but some may argue the details. I would say Rangers dont summon a beast, but have a single one that stays with them. They aren't casters, and no one expects them to start being one in Deadfire. They will have a subclass that summons a spirit pet, though.

It wasn't the cast in the early beta. Summons didn't disappear after combat so you just accumulated them until they were destroyed. I once ended up with might own little skeletons army. True, but it didn't last long. I would look at where the game ended up moreso than it's beginnings. It's a better indication of where the developers heads are at.

Just a thought, but there are 5 (other than Kith) enemy types in PoE and 5 Casters. You could give each caster a type that they summon. E.G. Priest - Vessel would make the most sense, but that would tie necromancy to Priests. Chanter - Spirit. Hey, their power source is called Spirit now. Druid - Beast of course. Wizard - Wilder? Ciphers - Primordial? The last two, I'm unsure about. Those make sense to me, but others might feel differently. This way you could turn any of these classes into a summoner, and have a larger set of variety. You could even have subclasses or even Talents that emphasis summoning for each class. I don't know. Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure those core abilities (Carnage, Ranger Pet, etc) will scale via the classes power level. The power level (bond in the Ranger's case) would increase accuracy, damage, deflection, dr, etc for the Pet. So, a high level Ranger will have a stronger pet vs a multiclassed character with a single dip level in Ranger. A barbarian's rage level could increase the base AoE of carnage, and perhaps its accuracy, penetration, and the like. The problem is that if you are too heavy handed with that scaling mechanic then it may not be worth it to dip one level into a class, but that might be the point. I expect a handful of levels will be more optimal, but we need details on the classes and their abilities, spells, and when they come during the level up of a class to be sure what is optimal.

Ryzen can't come soon enough. Only one more month or so. I need Vega too. :/

You're right. That said, Chanters are the summoner class of PoE, and no amount of you not liking them will change that. Could it change in Deadfire? Sure. Should it? Maybe. Will it? I doubt it, unfortunately. I would prefer they offloaded summons onto another class, but I doubt they will. The Chant mechanic is a good inhibitor on clustering the field with summons, and I expect that is exactly why they were given the summoning forte in the first game. Whether, they will change that or not is up in the air. I repeat, I like Bard classes, and I hate summon classes. This marriage is just as irritating for me as it is for you. I would prefer they move summons to another class, speed up chant building, and let the class be focused on mixing mundane combat (be it melee or ranged) and magic casting more. Whether it happens or not... is up for debate. They wanted Chanters to have something specific that they did vs the 4 other casters. (Druid, Wizard, Priest, Cipher). The only thing they really have to give the Chanter that is unique is summons. I just find it odd that people claim PoE has no summoning class when it is abundantly clear that it does. Not liking the Chanter is fine. I want it to be something it isn't at the best of times. Saying there isn't a summoner is factually wrong.

This. PoE already had more active melee characters compare to the I.E. games. Those games had melee classes that were meat shields with auto-attacks. Add in Multiclassing and you have even more active abilities for builds while simultaneously letting a character semi-effectively fill two roles, and I can definitely understand this decision. Better for pathfinding? Increased engagement range with bigger melee weapon ranges? It starts making since the more you think on it. It's one of the major changes that I understand the most, and want to try before I critique it too much. That isn't to say I don't understand the ire of some people. I do. Had they gone to a 4 man party I would be on the side of people that are pretty upset. 4 man parties in RTwP games have always felt too stifling to me. E.G. NWN2, Dragon Age, etc. I always wanted at least one more party member.

Agreed, boeroer. People heard someone say Chanters are like Bards once, and the rest is history. The Chanter now has the Bard stigma, and it plays nothing like them. The only thing it retains is that it's Chants can be cast while doing other actions like a Bard Song in most games. Otherwise it's a caster focused on Buffing, Debuffing, and summoning. Those are its strengths. Well, and Dragon Thrashed is also a strength, which is stupid good... Probably OP. Chants are more like normal spells than singing. You are reciting ancient words of power, and that is spell casting in a nutshell. I expect a subclass that significantly increases the speed of them building of phrase counters, but diminishes their AoE or the numerical value of their buffs. Thus, a more summoner friendly chanter, or invocation focused in general. Now, you can summon more quickly. Another idea is a Chanter that builds chants slower, but starts with a near full counter like the Cipher. So they can use abilities at the onset of combat, but take longer to get another cast. Honestly, I think it might be wise to speed up Chant count building in general since invocations are tough to get to use outside of PotD, or hit the drawing board on that mechanic in general.

I won't be angry, but I expect the same, Gromnir. Nothing major, but enough flavor to make using the kit enjoyable is all I ask. The subclasses will also feed the Multiclass system well. We don't know enough about the individual subclases to figure any of these out, but I'm sure there will be interesting combos.

Sadly, 200$ isn't "mere" to me and I'd likely have to replace my motherboard to upgrade anyways. Also I wasn't complaining, just asking. If you can swing it, you may look for a used PC on Craig's List, eBay, yard sales, pawn shop, or something equivalent. When I've been strapped for cash I've hit pawn shops/yard sales and snagged a PC that was better than I had for pretty cheap. Then slap you gfx card in it, and voila. You could easily find someone selling a Sandy bridge system for a couple hundred or less, and it would do fine. I've helped friends find cheap PCs this way as well, and more recently. Just a suggestion. Yeah I'll be keeping an eye out on craig's list, etc. :D Good luck! I don't know what games you play (other than PoE), but if you aren't big on modern AAA games you can get away with murder on a used system. Also, I forgot to add Salvation Army and Good Will to that list if you have them locally.

I would expect a few Talents/feats for each subclass that are specific to them, but I also expect the subclasses to retain most of the core class's talent pool. It will have some unique abilities, and may lose a few talents/abilities that it has access to as a ramification. I'm expecting variations on a theme with slight gameplay differences, but nothing much more. The few we have info on don't seem to be drastically different from their base class, but a little flavor here and there. The Ghost Heart Ranger still has animal companion Talents/abilities, but the difference lies in the companion's defenses and the fact that you need to summon it. It may have a few Talents available specific to the spirit animal companion.

Pretty sure the difficulty settings are still intended to increase the necessity for optimization. Story mode is "lol who cares?" Then the higher you climb in difficulty the more you need to understand systems and be optimized.

@injurai - Knowing Josh Sawyer, these will be equal variants on the core class. They want to ensure that the base class is still a good and viable choice. Edit for clarity: The subclass will likely give up certain benefits, but gain others. For instance the a Black Jacket loses accuracy, but gains more proficiencies with more weapons. He has a quick swap capability. When using a weapon the enemy is weak against he does greater damage and penetration. So, his bonuses to damage and penetration make up for the lack of accuracy IF you switch weapons to something the enemy is weak against. This lets him switch to the tool that is best for the enemy at hand, and stay close to the core Fighter.

So long as it's a sufficiently powerful ability, it could be a replacement for Sneak Attack? The class would be a duellist I guess, and sneak attacks never really fitted with that archetype to my mind. Perhaps, but at that point is the subclass a rogue? With a Fighter, it could retain many abilities and talents of the Fighter class. If it's a Rogue without Sneak Attack then what Talents can it persue? Not very many Rogue talents because it has no Sneak Attacks. So, it won't benefit from a lot of Rogue abilities. There could be a way around that, but it might fit Fighter more, in this case anyway. You could limit it to Medium or light armor to further inhibit it as well, but I know Josh doesn't like such limitation. I guess you could only have Sneak attacks apply on reposte attacks. That might work.

Yup, it would definitely be difficult to balance a class design like that, but it would be cool. It could work for rogues too, but I don't know how well it would work with their sneak attacks and the like. It may be too much micro for that class. Who knows? We have to know more about the class changes to make an educated guess there.

Sadly, 200$ isn't "mere" to me and I'd likely have to replace my motherboard to upgrade anyways. Also I wasn't complaining, just asking. If you can swing it, you may look for a used PC on Craig's List, eBay, yard sales, pawn shop, or something equivalent. When I've been strapped for cash I've hit pawn shops/yard sales and snagged a PC that was better than I had for pretty cheap. Then slap you gfx card in it, and voila. You could easily find someone selling a Sandy bridge system for a couple hundred or less, and it would do fine. I've helped friends find cheap PCs this way as well, and more recently. Just a suggestion.