TRX850

Games like IWD2 and NWN1 did make use of the "Animal Empathy" skill, which allowed druids and rangers to charm/dominate certain creatures. Even Minsc in BG had a "Charm Animal" ability. I have played characters using this skill before, and in most cases it was used to calm a hostile animal into a neutral state. But I don't think there was any XP reward for doing so. So if you're playing the game to max out your XP potential, you just end up killing the animals anyway. But if there was some incentive for a small XP reward each time you made a successful skill check, or at least in a scenario where you avert some kind of threat, then it could be useful to bring back Animal Empathy. In BG/BG2 you gain XP for lockpicking (and possibly disarming traps, not sure), so if you're also able to "tame the wild beast" as it were, there should be a reward for that too. It's not like it will happen all the time. And yes, communication between humans and animals is often very subtle, coming down to body language, posture, eye contact, and vocal sounds. So it's not an unfeasible idea.

From a purely mechanical view, it would seem that an "array" of reputation values would be needed to cover all factions, guilds, and ideologies. If you began the game with a neutral value, say 50 out of 100 for example, that might represent your standing in the overall realm, with 0 for lawlessness and 100 representing unwavering adherence to "laws of the realm". But as you encounter characters whose ideology differs from that, like a high-ranking thieves' guild member, or a misanthropic hermit, or a bounty hunter for example, the values no longer represent law, but whether you are "in good standing" with their ideology. As in real life, lawless communities don't last very long, so maintaining peace and law should probably be the default ideology. Even organised crime syndicates have their own form of law. But if you decided to have dealings with the local thieves' guild, and assuming this became known to the wider public, you might become a wanted criminal in the eyes of the town mayor, but seen as a trustworthy type within the thieves' guild. So the first entry in the reputation table would drop, but the second entry would increase. And when you happened upon the misanthropic hermit (a third table entry), your % value with him might initially be 0 or close to it. Then if it turned out that you killed a group of bandits who'd been harassing him, your reputation with him might remain the same, but the % value with the mayor might increase, and the thieves' guild value decrease (if the bandits were from that guild). In a way, it's a bit like how they implemented it in NWN2, but I think it only extended to companions, and your alignment was used to determine your standing in the wider world. I suppose it boils down to how complex the devs want to make reputation in the game. I don't think it would be overly complex to have a "reputation table" that gave an accurate snapshot of how you are viewed by anyone you've encountered before. Even if there were several hundred entries, it's still a straightforward concept. And in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't take up a huge amount of space.

What if your companion played "hard to get", but the game allowed conversation responses from you that ultimately lead to them discovering that it was YOU who was playing hard to get all along? - That awkward moment when your companion blushes from being played at their own game -

Why not think of the druid class as a cleric whose power comes from the earth, rather than the heavens? And so their spell selection and class abilities are all about manipulating nature, the elements, and the environment. A sort of "Enviro-mancer". (Although now people are probably picturing a modern tree-hugging hippie activist type. Nothing wrong with that). The druid could be a specialist cleric similar to the mechanics of a specialist wizard, i.e. their spell selection is a reduced subset of the whole, but which allows them to focus in their chosen school/domain. I think the real question though is how are druids differentiated from clerics in the game world and what is the incentive to play one. If you tot up all the perks a cleric has (divine spells, domains, healing, turn undead, heavy armour etc), obviously it's a case of assigning similarly weighted perks that fit the druidic type. They had some really nice feats and spell options in NWN2, but as has been discussed here already, the shapechange (Wild Shape) ability was made overly complex and introduced the possibility that you might be statistically worse off while in that state. I appreciate how much thought must've gone into it to keep it realistic, and it's an improvement on the IE & NWN1 druid, but if there's a "perceived disincentive" to play a druid, then we should attack the idea from a different perspective, namely player enjoyment. There have been some good suggestions on this forum so far. And as I mentioned in my previous post, if they can get the shapechange ability right, and make it a true perk, rather than a series of complicated trade-offs, then straight away they've reintroduced an incentive to play one. I can see why, in an effort to keep things realistic, you don't receive certain bonuses from weapons or armour or other items while you're running around as a bear. But my point would be that everything the druid has equipped in humanoid form represents the sum total of their adventuring competency up to that point. And I would be absolutely thrilled to finally play a druid where I can shapechange (for a limited duration) into a "super-druid" rather than a "Swiss cheese druid". Clerics gain temporary perks that allow them to become super-clerics. And wizards can cast "Tenser's Transformation". Druids should have their limelight too. Please let's do this right.

I really liked having the individual behavioural settings in NWN2. It saved a lot of time during combat and with lockpicking etc. One thing that irked me about it though, was that if you temporarily took control of a companion to micro-manage a task, no matter what behavioural settings you had enabled, other party members (including the character you created) tended to stop what they were doing and follow you. Now it may be that I was just doing it wrong, and there's a simple solution to it. I think the game devs probably decided that they had to keep the party within a reasonable proximity to one another because of the 3D nature of the game and camera placement. What's great about the isometric world view of P:E though, is that if it's going to be anything like other IE games, then you can move individual characters around the map with no issue of them trying to play follow the leader all the time. So that's one problem solved. I would like an option to tell my "scout" companion to "search for traps and attempt to disable them until directed otherwise". But if there was any danger of them wandering off to disarm a trap and potentially aggro monsters in the process, then you could adjust the sensitivity of the behavioural setting so it only alerts the player to a trap being detected. Then a separate action to disarm it. The reason I make a special point about this is because with a high enough "search" skill in some games, the search radius also increases along with the chance of detection, and so if they detect a trap at the end of the corridor and go running off (because that's what you've told them to do) then I'd like some additional control to prevent overzealous behaviour.

Absolutely. Physical skills and feats would be affected. And possibly more subtle things like Listen and Search. I like it because it's not just a visual element, but something that could influence the player to revise their strategy in water-logged conditions. And create new and interesting ways of overcoming the environment to reach their objective. Maybe if you spend too long in water, you experience problems with core temperature, stamina, and are subject to water-borne disease.

<Sigh> Yes, it's 3D and uses models instead of sprites. Great deal. Look at ToEE and add a decade, this is what we will get. 1 inch party-member figures seen walking trough the dungeon from high above. No matter whether the party-members are pre-rendered by a mainframe or on the fly by your graphic card, I don't see any effect on atmosphere by the simple fact that a shader covers the lower bodies of your party. The atmospheric impact comes from the setting of the dungeon itself, or the fact that you *can* walk trough water as a tactical option, not the graphical presentation of actually doing it. I really would like swimming climbing and wading, as tactical options, heck I *hated* NWN2 for not letting me to simply climb over that wall to Blacklake, but I also realize what this means for level-design and story telling, especially when you want to make a game where you don't just waltz trough the dungeon and click on anything that moves until it gives XP and drops new equipment. JOG, I hear what you're saying. With the camera zoomed out, we probably won't enjoy the full effect of water navigation. I'm just looking at the sample image from update #36 (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63020-project-eternity-update-36-off-to-our-elfhomes-but-first/), and by the way, someone tell me please if this pic is a current demo or a screenshot from an older IE game? I don't recognise it. Anyway, it seems to tilt the camera to roughly a 45° angle which still reveals enough of the characters to see the potential effect. It's not as if it's a top-down view. And yes, water on its own isn't that much of a spectacle. The atmosphere does indeed come down to the dungeon setting, as you say. Also sound effects and lighting would help sell the atmospherics. I think we should at least entertain the idea that the devs are more than capable of surprising us with engine technology to render out a water-logged dungeon that doesn't feel like it's the 1990's. Let's give them a chance before we dismiss the idea.

That whole business with the bonus properties of some equipped items stacking with the shapeshifted form, and other bonuses being ignored was only one of the frustrating aspects of how it was handled in previous IE games and NWN 1&2. That and there seemed to be an irregular progression of benefits as new shapes became available. If they could just keep all ability scores and item bonus stats the same as the base class, THEN add appropriate perks on top during shapechange, that would eliminate a lot of the confusion and doubt. Maybe a large cat = base stats + improved dex + stealth + sneak attack. Bear = base stats + improved str + con + (optional?) devastating claw attack. And so on. Maybe if they wove possible side quests into the campaign that allowed the shapeshifter class to shine? For example, hunters have over-culled the local bear population to dangerously low levels, and it takes a Druid/Shapeshifter to do her thing and lure the hunters into a confrontation. It doesn't need to have a happy/politically correct outcome, but it would certainly create a moral dilemma for each player. This example is possibly a cliche though, but you all get the idea.

That's why I'm suggesting it now. To have water considered as a traversable part of the level design, rather than a simple barrier. Unless of course it's too deep and purposely there as a barrier. I think when I said "new" I was meaning something not previously implemented in IE games (it was almost always a barrier), even though it's been done well in many other game worlds and franchises. Also, new in that if you've been marching overland for days and discover a partially flooded cave or dungeon, it's "new" as in a change of environmental experience. Hopefully bugs and oversights will be ironed out when we get to alpha test this puppy.

I'm not suggesting water is new to the game world. Of course it's not. P:E has been pitched as a pre-rendered isometric RPG, as an evolution of the Infinity Engine games. <-- these are my words, not Obsidian's. I'm asking the financiers of this caper if they would like to see their party facing the option of wading through murky water, which is something you don't normally see in a pre-rendered isometric RPG of this heritage. I've not played Fallout, so I can't comment on that. None of us know what P:E will become eventually. But during pre-production is the time to offer up ideas, big, small, outlandish, unpopular, humourous, tragic, and every degree in between. I personally like the idea of a party of "D&D" adventurers slowly wading through waist deep floodwater in a dungeon or underground lake, not knowing what might strike from below. I mean, come on, use your imagination. Having your own story to tell is what this is all about.

I could see that happening. So a critical miss gives your opponent a bonus on their roll to confirm a critical hit in the following round. Sort of a temporary "Power Critical" feat from NWN2. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Critical

Yes, but it's possible to create the "illusion" of splashing through water, with surface ripples and particle effects. The water itself would most likely be a flat plane or box with some texturing applied to simulate depth, murkiness, and possibly animated to portray a direction of flow. Interactivity doesn't mean a dynamic commodity like weapons or items, Just something that characters can walk/wade through as if it were a reactive terrain type. I think it boils down to how much can be simulated by illusion.

Has anyone dared to consider that the d20 system, beloved as it is, might be part of the problem here? Maybe a d50 or d100 system would solve some of these issues? Ok, I haven't thought this through yet, but it seems like folks have a big big problem with outcomes being decided in 5% intervals, when here we are in 2013 where the level of creativity and inventiveness from you all, and the number of perceived RPG choices seems to overwhelm the humble tried and tested d20 system. Maybe instead of black and white outcomes, we need more grey? Maths and grey areas are what we're trying to eliminate though, aren't we? Or maybe we just need to overcome our fear of grey? Maybe grey is the new black? This doesn't really help, I know...

It was an example only. I'm sure the devs can research real world habitats and ecology as a guide for creature placement. And maybe invent their own fantasy versions of real world creatures. Interesting in that it becomes a new terrain type to navigate through. And if you can't see the bottom, your imagination might lead you to worry about what lurks below. Maybe there are penalties for trap detection in water, penalties to movement, and combat. Sometimes, what you can't see is scariest. Well yes, in a tabletop game where your DM might allow environmental changes like that. Traditional IE spells don't really allow changes to the environment, but maybe now is the time to suggest it? I like the idea of elemental spells in particular being used to temporarily manipulate the environment. Cast "Wall of Ice" in a narrow chasm to prevent enemies reaching you. And the bridge example you gave. Why not suggest a list of spells that create useful interactive structures, natural or "man-made" ?

The Battleguard of Tempus from IWD2 is a great example of why axe-wielding clerics rock.

Like Michael Winslow (from Police Academy) making squeaky shoe noises when you walk. You get paranoid and stop to listen. Nothing. You take a few steps and the squeaking returns. You stop again. Nothing.

Any thoughts on allowing players to ford streams/rivers or underground areas that are knee/waist/chest deep in water? Apart from it being visually interesting and possibly scary at times, it could allow for a variety of aquatic encounters to take place. For example, if the party has no choice but to cross a waist deep stream on foot, they might become targets for electric eels, snakes, and "bitey" fish like piranhas. Or in subterranean lakes, aboleths, aquatic undead, frog-men, and all manner of amphibious creatures. Obviously, the engine would need to handle the visual complexity of water and water-combat, but it could open up additional adventuring possibilities previously unavailable in IE games. Do we need this in P:E ?

What about a save function similar to the original Tomb Raider or Tomb Raider 2 game? I prefer the TR2 option where finding limited "save crystals" throughout the game allows you to er...do what it says on the can...save the game, which makes you plan your game strategy much more. Much in the same way permadeath introduces palpable fear/stress to some games, if you choose a hardcore mode in P:E, removing the "save every 5 seconds" option would be one method. I'd only play hardcore once I'd completed the game in "normal" mode first though. But I'd still want a traditional pause option.

What if a critical miss simply counted as an auto-hit by your own weapon? So your flaming longsword dealt 1d6 fire damage for example. This could work with any or all perks your current weapon had: Elemental damage Spell effects (Dispel magic, Slow, Bane etc) Poison I still think the character should be allowed a save attempt, possibly with a penalty applied. Also, I'd like to add to my earlier post: (temporary effects) Deafened Silenced Blinded Slowed Weakened (Enfeebled) Dazed/Confused I can see some of those being frustrating for the player, but then, if it's a combination of a 1-in-20 die roll, offset by a saving throw, and possibly class/racial/magic resistances, then it should be a rare thing indeed, and quite spectacular when it does happen. Maybe there's a 50/50 chance of striking an adjacent party member?

I'd hope that these will almost never happen to a competent warrior. Having a critical miss on one in twenty swings just seems way too high: the fighter's skill should play a big part in the outcome. I agree. Perhaps the warrior (or any class for that matter) might get a save attempt, using their appropriate skills, like the way Discipline works in NWN. That would seem more reasonable. EDIT: Expanding on this point. It does seem ludicrous that a level 1 fighter would have the same 1-in-20 chance of slipping and stabbing himself in the eye as a level 20 fighter. Combat is the purview of warriors. And in game mechanics, any class can perform a melee attack, but not all classes can cast spells or backstab for example. So I think warriors in particular should be allowed common sense saves against the one thing they spend their entire career focused on.

Intelligent or sentient weapons are usually regarded as being an artifact or relic of antiquity, information on which is often shrouded in mystery. So they're unlikely to have been created recently, but there could be exceptions. But yes, traditionally (in fiction at least) they are imbued with an ancient spirit or soul that remains unaffected by time. So if they are discovered in a long lost tomb for example, they might insist that the new owner complete a quest that the previous owner did not. There are many variations to this of course, and I'd be excited to see what Obsidian could come up with.

What if the outcome of a critical miss was a range of effects, rather than just damage? Self-knockdown Self-disarm Self-stun Self-wounding (i.e. damage over multiple rounds) If you rolled a critical miss with a ranged weapon, maybe this represents the arrow/bolt "sticking" and shattering (with a hilarious "sproi-oi-oi-oing" sound effect) causing temporary blindness etc. It makes more sense to introduce variety into a miss, instead of just impaling yourself every time. EDIT: Apologies if this has been suggested before. I do try to read through these forums, but on hot topics like this, it's sometimes difficult to be aware of previous suggestions.

From a conceptual view, the weapon might be imbued with its own ranger-esque favoured enemy feat with an active listen/spot skill check for the creature type in question. But would it act independently of its handler, like a companion or familiar who attempts to taunt or intimidate the enemy? Presumably, the enemy reacts firstly to the weapon, before reacting to the wielder, although if the wielder had a higher taunt and/or intimidate skill active, the higher value might be used. In terms of how the weapon alerts its handler, it could have some interesting variations. If it has an active listen/spot skill check (like an omni-radar detection), the alert could be a gradual glow effect, or a rising wave of sonic dissonance, or both. Maybe it emits its own creature noise like a growl/hiss/roar/rattle as its warning? The next question is, when this happens, do the creatures detected *know* they've been detected? Do nearby or hidden enemies sense this and auto-react? Or only once they're in range of a taunt/intimidate attempt? It could have some interesting roleplay outcomes for a stealthy PC trying to pass unseen through an area filled with weapon-reactive enemies.

I agree with this. My gut feeling about finishing moves is that they're up there with "planking" and those reality TV shows you love to hate. They're fine in console fighting games that use modern uber-styling as their selling point. P:E should do all it can to remain timeless, like the IE games.

"Are we there yet?" No. "Are we there yet?" No. "What about now?" ...