Hiro Protagonist II

I agree. A lot of the best items in the game were off the beaten track. They were not on the main quest line and you had to do a lot of optional side quests to track down these items or components. It was the same in BG1. There were a lot of great magical items that you would never have found. I didn't find a lot of these items in BG1 until I read a walkthrough after completing the game. I can understand people's concerns but really don't understand the continual argument since PoE is also going to be a low level game.

You also have some people complaining about SoA and not just ToB. And that didn't really happen that much in SoA. Also, a lot of the good weapons that you started near the beginning of the game, you also had at the end of the game. And these were either +2 or +3 weapons. eg. Scimitars, Slings. However, Trashman is complaining about magic items being discarded every five minutes which is a nonsense. BG1 had +2 and +3 weapons. SoA had a +1 weapon that you upgraded to +2 and I would say the majority of players kept at the end of SoA. eg. Mace of Disruption. The majority of weapons would be +3 which is only +1 better or the same as BG1. Scimitars are the exception with only being +2 in BG2. However, in BG1, you could get +3 Scimitars. Same with a +3 Staff. I believe you couldn't keep Drizzt's scimitars in BG2. So you had weapons in BG1 like scimitars that were better than in BG2. The majority of the ammunition was the same as BG1. The majority of Rings, Cloaks, Amulets were the same as BG1. The Helm of Balduran was the same. Even some of the Armour was slightly better than BG1. eg. Red Dragon Scale was -1 AC and in BG1 you could get Full Plate at 0 AC. In BG1, you could even make Full Plate that had an AC 1 with the Cloak/Ring of Protection +2 into a -1 AC Armour, similar to Armour Class of gear in BG2. You also had Balduran's Cloak in BG1 to make your AC better. Yes, there was +4 weapons in SoA and even +5 with such gems as Carsomyr, but only 1 class could use Carsomyr. And even in ToB, it was upgraded with a +1 to it. And it's not like people discarded these items. The Flail of Ages was upgraded to +5 and people would have kept it. ToB had a lot of loot, but the expansion was also very small. So of course it's going to look like it's raining +5 and +6 weapons. But look closely at the items in ToB. The Armour, Amulets, Rings, Cloaks, Helms, Ioun Stones, etc were similar to SoA. A lot of the ammunition was the same with the Bag of Plenty +1 and the Quiver of Plenty +1 upgraded to +2 ammunition. In fact the ammunition for those bags are the same bullets and arrows as BG1. Let's think about that for a second. There are items in ToB which is Epic Tier that are the same items in BG1. You have to consider ToB is Epic Tier. The sort of weapons you would expect in Epic Tier is +5 and +6 items. Even in pnp, you're using +3 and +4 weapons near the mid-end of Paragon tier. The biggest problem for me with ToB is not the loot per se, it's the small expansion + items for all classes = Loot raining from the sky. And a lot of those items were only slightly better than items in SoA and a lot of them I sold, because the SoA items were still good. If the expansion was a lot bigger and less linear, then the loot could have been spaced out better. So this argument of discarding items every five minutes is a little exaggerated. If you look at the BG games. BG1 is Heroic Tier. SoA is Paragon Tier. ToB should have been renamed something else and a small expansion with a few new areas in the same style as TotSC. BG3 should have been a totally new game called Throne of Bhaal and all about Epic Tier and your way to godhood (if you so choose) and the loot would have been spread over that game. What happened was the expansion became Epic Tier and everything was crammed in which is why I don't particularly like ToB because it's way too short. It's not the loot I dislike in ToB, it's that Epic Tier was crammed into an expansion when it should have been a game on its own. imo. Note: When I say SoA, I'm not including Watcher's Keep as I consider that part of ToB.

I take balance in a party based single player game as meaning you'll most likely need the four types of classes (Strike, Defender, Controller and Leader) to overcome the objectives in the game. Like 4 pillars to hold your party (or house) together. If you don't have one of those types, then your house will fall down, or at least be wobbling and make it very difficult to get through. All four need and rely on each other. If you stock up your party with Strikers, you're going to fail or at the very least, it's going to be very hard to get through. So I'm not too concerned about the different classes of Strikers or different classes of Defenders, because each class will bring something unique to the party but also maintain their central role of being a Striker or Defender, or whatever their role is. If there is to be balance between classes, then I believe it should be between the classes in that type, eg. balance between Rogue, Ranger and Cipher. Not trying to balance Strikers against Defenders, Controllers or Leaders because they have different roles. The encounters could be made that you may need all four types, and not a specific class.

When BG was released, I was hoping for a Ravenloft 2nd ED IE game next. We got Planescape and Icewind Dale instead which I also enjoyed. 2nd ED had a lot of settings.

Adam Brennecke in a video interview mid last year said the release date of a possible Summer 2014, confirming it wasn't going to be April. But anyway the information was out there that April wasn't going to happen.

No it's not, the backer portal has said Winter 2014 when it went live last year.

No freedom to do what you want, how you want. You're locked into the current rule set. If you want to go back to a previous rule set? No can do.

Yep, I would be doing this if a summons only had a limited 3 uses and it's gone. It would become a meta-gaming tool on subsequent play throughs, which is why I'm not in favour of the 3 uses and it disappears item. Except for things like wands that can be recharged. BG2 did figurines quite well and they weren't OP. What made summons in BG2 unbalanced were some of the spells and the amount you could summon. I was playing BG2 last night and sent my summons in to see who would survive against a Lich purely to see what summons was OP and what weren't. The spider and fighter figurines put up a fight but died. Spider spawn and Animate Dead spells were okay but died. However, Monster Summoning III summons didn't seem to be affected and killed the Lich and the two mummys that were helping the Lich. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing a limit of summons compared to how many members are in your party. BG2 had a 5 summon limit. This was good for solo spellcasters because it could turn your party into 6. However, when you had 6 party members, it turned your party into 11. So maybe as you get more party members, the ability to summon lessens?

This is one problem with Epic levels. The higher the level you go, the better the weapons (and abilities) you get. While it didn't make sense for shopkeepers to have those items, you would normally get better items through the expansion. This is always going to be a problem when you have the same character levelling up in games with expansions, exporting them into sequels and more expansions. And when you have so many classes, you have to cater for all those classes, hence the over abundance of magical items. At least ToB didn't have abilities like this:

Looks like Oby got a few; hook, line, and sinker.

I didn't vote. The powergamer in me would like to know the various races abilities and bonuses before I choose a race for a specific class.

I like how healing is done in Warhammer 40K and Traveller being First Aid skills. Both games are set in Earth's future so there's a certain realism to it. And it can take some time to get back to full health. This is okay because at times you're travelling vast distances and taking weeks to get from one place to another. Something you can't really do in D&D. In D&D you can be back at full health with a couple of spells. When it comes to D&D a lot of the realism is thrown out, especially Divine Power and I wonder if taking part of that divine power from classes like Clerics and turning it into a First Aid skill for any class is the right choice. Then what does the Cleric become when part of that Divine Power is gone? Or are you suggesting the Cure Light wounds spell be replaced by a First Aid skill and the more powerful Healing spells are still handled by the designated healers? I don't think that's going to get around the bigger battles where the more powerful healing spells are required and First Aid won't be as effective. It's okay for low level games like BG1, but when you get up to level 10+, I rarely used Cure Light when more powerful healing spells are available. And First Aid would be the same. I have no answers.

I'd like to see figurines/summons actually talk. Especially with figurines.

Going from the trailer, screen shots and a lot of the classes, it does seem like an IE game. But the test for me is playing it and finding out if it's has the (taken from the KS site) memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. The bar has already been set high. I'm keeping my expectations down for now, mostly due to Obsidian already polled for new wilderness areas which concerns me about the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate. I'm really hoping it's not going to end up similar to IWD where you're railroaded into areas and not being able to go back like you can in Baldur's Gate. I'm playing through BG2 at the moment and did the absolute bare minimum quests to get to spell hold. It's interesting going back to do the quests that were in Chapter 2 / 3 and the remarks by some of the quests givers saying stuff like, 'collect the fee and you'll be able to find Imoen' even though she's in my party. But it's also good that I can go back and do these quests. Also, on armour. I noticed Melisan's armour isn't as revealing as Irenicus, especially with Irenicus' nipples and codpiece.

If there's going to be codpieces in PoE, then I'd like to see some attributes imbued on them like +10 Charisma and open up additional dialogue options.

Something like Irenicus? He doesn't have much armour, but does have a big codpiece.

I'm not being disingenuous at all. I didn't see the tank part of Lephys' post because it wasn't there. All I can see is you wouldn't run in with your Rogue. Being a heavy hitter, of course you would run in. And the Rogue works best with the Defender. So ideally you would have both run in together. You can also run in to get your sneak attack off and as I said, you have an 'escape' method to get out. And this is what I'm trying to say. Not kind of right.

What it comes down to is that you're arguing against what I don't mean by specifically quoting Fantastic Four's The Thing. You disagree... with what I'm not actually getting at. Hence my explanations. If it was perfectly viable to easily allow your Rogue to hold his own AND still fully take advantage of his heavy-hittingness, then the choice between Fighter and Rogue in that regard would be a no-brainer. I trust that team Obsidian's designs will make sense, so I trust that that will not be the case. A "default" Rogue's hold-his-own factor will be lower than that of many other classes, while the effective heaviness of his hits will be higher than that of many other classes. In relation to the other classes, the Rogue will not be the lord of the rings Troll to your Orc party. Sort of a "the best defense is a good offense" combatant. As long as you can get the hits you need, you can make the most of those hits and produce more damage than others. But, you have to deal more with getting the hits you need than other classes do. Nice back track. Your original quote doesn't say anything about Fighters, just Rogues and Rangers. And I was answering your quote at it stands. Hence everything I said was in relation to your first quote. Then you shifted the goal posts with your second quote by introducing red herrings. Also the Fighter wouldn't be the best either as their damage is less than a Rogue. This is why it's a party based game. You play as a party. So your example of sending in the Rogue alone is moot. Also, why wouldn't you send in one of your biggest damage dealers in? Considering they are a 'heavy hitter' and deal more damage than say a Fighter or Barbarian, hence the title 'heavy hitters'. You wouldn't send a Fighter or Barbarian in alone either. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. A Rogue that's designed specifically to hit heavily can still be gung-ho in charging in since the gung-ho seems to be a play style, not necessarily a Rogue build.

I don't see how. Give the Rogue a shield, no problem. I use a shield in pnp for my Rogue. I have the Master at Arms talent which lets me swap melee and ranged weapons with one hand as a minor action and still have actions left to sneak attack. So having a shield on my off-hand isn't a problem. Although all crossbows in PoE will probably be two handed. So you may be able to swap while the game is paused. Also, there are probably other ways to bolster AC and defences than giving full plate. However, since PoE doesn't operate the same as the IE games, it might be a viable option to deck them out in full plate. But what this comes down to you is saying: "Your Rogue being a "heavy hitter" does't mean he runs in and goes "It's CLOBBERIN' TIIIIME!". I disagree. I think it's a good option to do so.

I don't see the distinction. If you can optimise the Rogue in PoE to have a high AC/Defense, then you should be able to take on 3 dudes with swords, especially if they have statuses on them that grants the Rogue combat advantage. Granted PoE is not pnp, but having a hard to hit Rogue that can do a lot of damage should be able to hold his own. And the added benefit of party members (including Defenders) would complement that. So you'll want to have your Rogue running into battle after they get off their ranged sneak attack in the first seconds of combat. It's what I did in pnp and my party members relied on me running into the fray. Also you have the ability to 'escape' if things get to much for you with the Coordinated Positioning ability in PoE and that should allow you to keep attacking while the 3 dudes are now concentrating their efforts on your Defender. But you're still in battle clobbering away.

^ Actually, it does. You want your Rogue to run in and go 'It's CLOBBERIN' TIIIIME'. Because you'll have your Defenders helping the Rogue. And you'll want to get off your sneak attack in the first couple of seconds of combat when they have sneak attack active (combat advantage). This will probably be done with Ranged attack first to get off your sneak attack and then changed to melee, as is the case of pnp. That was the main advantage of the optimised Artful Dodger/Trickster/Rogue in pnp. You are hard to hit, you almost never miss, you can move anywhere freely, and you hit hard. If you can do something like this in PoE, then running in will be a good option, especially with your Defenders taking the brunt of the damage.

After all these years, this is my first time with Anomen. Never taken him before. He's not too bad.

Playing BG2 with a Sorcerer and came across a room full of vampires. No worries, Anomen casts Sunray. Kills the mummys as well which I didn't know.

You're a bit late to the party? What I originally wrote is not what Infinitron's original post or this thread is about.

Some questions: 1. So you don't have a problem with magic being tossed in a world that doesn't behave as ours does? 2. What sort of world would that be? 3. And I don't understand these implications your going with? I'm genuinely curious because for myself and my friends, we want to have something familiar. Using worlds that behave like ours helps players and the DM to understand that world. Medieval type settings with magic helps players to identify what they're playing, Knights, Paladins, Fighters, Druids, Thieves, Magic users, etc. When you take an alien world that doesn't behave like ours, then it's a lot harder to identify with it and the rules that govern it.