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Everything posted by Karkarov
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Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
I pulled out of this thread before because it was quickly devolving into a circuitous never ending conversation that was reaching the "yo mama" level of intellectual debate before. It seems like it is already heading back that way again :\ It may be that everything constructive that can be said on this topic has already been said. -
Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Just to pipe in again I will say once more level scaling is not good, nor is it "better" by any sort of definition. The fact that most people say scaling is done best when you can't tell it is scaling is even more proof that maybe it isn't design wise needed. Open world you can go anywhere the second the game starts projects like Skyrim "maybe" need some scaling to compensate for the fact that the player literally can go anywhere at any time. P:E is not an open world game though. There can be many things limiting where you can go and when, from world or faction elements like a trade route being blockaded, to simple logistics like not being able to go to Cave X because you haven't found a map leading there, or even plot catch all's like you can't go to City W because a plague was unleashed there and until you find a cure traveling there would be your death! There is just all sorts of ways to limit where you can go, when you can go there, and why in a game like this. Even if you leave it largely open you can still stagger large parts of the world out without limiting options. Example: World of Warcraft. That game was so huge at first that you could literally have anywhere from 2-4 different viable leveling zones at any given time and it was totally normal for a person to hit max level and never see certain quests or areas. For the sake of re-playability and depth it would sure be nice if P:E could do this. Not to mention it also nullifies the "linearity" argument which isn't really valid to begin with because the game was never going to be linear and it would never be forced into it simply by not having level scaling. If you do have to go with the design crutch that is level scaling it needs to be based on how it is done in D&D. The enemies don't magically become higher level there are just more of them or some of them are replaced by more threatening variants. Or maybe do something smarter and go with story based encounter changes. At plot point X this happens and now that area is populated by these enemies instead of the old enemies and as a result it is more dangerous etc etc. At least then there is a logical in game reason the scaling happened. -
Like I said before, the only way Main Character death would work in a game like this was if it was highly scripted and intended from day one. Example, Crono dying in Chrono Trigger only to be brought back to life later.
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Well Junta.... - Dungeon Crawler = Yes Diablo is a dungeon crawler. - Procedurally Generated = Diablo has a lot more than "some" areas that violate this but let's let it slide - Single Character = Uh... sort of, you can have more than one save at a time. That is not Roguelike. - Single Player = Not Diablo, in fact Multi Player is a definitive component. Definitely not very Roguelike. - Fully Turn Based = Diablo doesn't meet this criteria, not Roguelike. - Permadeath = Only if you turn it on in Diablo but not by default, not Roguelike. - Swords and Sorcery = This isn't even required in my opinion but yes Diablo is swords and sorc. - Keyboard Controlled = Not Roguelike, you could play Diablo with a controller even if it wasn't the "optimum" way. - ASCII Graphics = Blatantly not Roguelike but this is also a silly rule so we will let it slide. - Open Source = Yeah Diablo, it isn't open source. Not Roguelike. And the one you forgot... - No Dedicated Towns, Merchants, or Rest Areas = Definitely not a Roguelike. Going down that list it is pretty obvious Diablo might be inspired by Roguelikes but it definitely is not a Roguelike itself.
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Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Dude, this whole topic aside. Grow up. If you can't write a post without insulting someone else don't post. Your immaturity makes any argument you might be making pretty much invalid because the minute you open with weak personal insults I cease to care about anything you have to say. So, what I just quoted above? Right back at you. -
Economy & Difficulty
Karkarov replied to Osvir's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Here is the problem Osvir. It costs 100 GP for a short sword? So what? I just wrecked a small army of Hobgoblins all with perfectly functional bastard swords. Or did the game forget to mod the sell price? Very "realistic" if it did. Supply and demand goes both ways and all that happens when the "Iron Crisis is REAL" is the Candlekeep PC becomes the biggest weapon dealer on the Sword Coast because he is the only guy with a steady supply. So since I can sell weapons for more the heightened price of buying weapons doesn't really make a big dent in reality because I now also have more money. Unless of course the so called "tactical" mod was totally unrealistic and actually had a broken economy where weapons cost more to buy but sold for the same. In other words, no. The economy should be based on something that is somewhat realistic and makes sense. Not on a difficulty slider.- 35 replies
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But there is no DM Osvir. This isn't D&D, we aren't at the tabletop, this story isn't about the party which is comprised of five real human beings with their own characters. This is a single player CRPG and the story is only about MY character because I am the only actual player. I am only saying this to reinforce the common sense reality of the game. Again your idea can work, but it would have to be highly scripted and the game would have to be designed around it happening from the ground up. Also it doesn't really work well in blank slate games like this one. Games where it is less about you role playing your character and more about you experiencing the story and the world through a character (again example: Mass Effect's Commander Shepard) it can work. But this isn't one of those games. If it were then there never would have been an Adventurers Hall in the first place.
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Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Uh the issue with your statement is that the entire concept behind "level scaling" no matter how you achieve it, is that you want the challenge level to stay at a consistent point and always be based on how strong the player is. By it's very definition it is designed to prevent the player from ever being stuck in an un winnable fight or a fight that is too easy. In other words it's entire goal is to make sure the game is never "that hard" or "really easy". My level 20 party wielding vorpal blades of death dealing bad assness should be able to clear the bandit fortress in the woods blind folded, heck I should be able to do it solo or with only maybe one other dude. The bandits should not all suddenly be level 12, have level 15 spell casters with them, and all have magical weapons just because I showed up at level 20. -
I think part of good design is making sure no skill is "gimped" so while I agree with you in theory I will borrow a 3rd Edition D&D implementation. A Fighter in 3rd Ed is obviously not a master of stealth, by nature he is not well trained in moving silently or hiding in shadows. HOWEVER, he can still learn these skills just at greater cost and a longer investment period, also he is limited in that while he can ultimately become good at it he will never be as good as a rogue is. So you pay a price, get what is considered a "sub optimal" choice for your character, but it is still a viable choice that gives you a skill that IS useful just not ideal for your chosen class.
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Uh bad idea for a bunch of reasons, many of them already stated. That said. I think if they wanted to do a cool pre release promo for their game before it hits doing something like releasing a basic roguelike called "The Endless Paths" and giving it some basic back story, making it about the P:E world and running leader boards for it would be really cool. It wouldn't take too much effort on their part either. Then when the final game ships they could put a spot in the final level of Od Nua where you discover the corpses of an adventuring party and you could leave a diary there and all of them are named after the top leaders from the roguelike with little anecdotes from people who played it written in.
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Glad you posted that Osvir, because while I think what you are posting could work in specific situations (such as a Mass Effect style game) and I don't think it would work in any form of "blank slate" game (IE: Project Eternity) there is always a catch. It has to be highly scripted and pre planned. It can't happen in some random encounter and then *shrug* if it did then the game would have to be based on the idea that your character can die and be replaced at any point which is also blatantly going to result in a weaker story arc. Why? Because nothing can be written to be specific, everything has to be crafted under the assumption that "anyone" can do this (which cheapens your characters accomplishments by the assumption) and everything has to be generic. People will be coming to this game for a well crafted story too, and your entire idea hinges on the concept that the main characters identity is unimportant in any way. When the main character doesn't matter (at all) then it is going to be hard to have a deep engrossing well crafted story. Red Dead Redemption is the perfect example of what you want out of this idea. The thing is like I said, this only works in a highly scripted game where events in the one like Read Dead are planned from day one. Not where it is a random event that can happen at any given moment at any time. What a better example of why this also makes no sense? A group of heroes with a great leader go on a quest to save the world! A year later the leader has died and been replaced 7 times and only one of the original band is even alive. Two years later all the original and even 2nd - 3rd gen heroes are dead and it has had 13 different leaders. Year three.... This is perfectly possible in the type of game design you want and quite frankly anyone who joined the party I just described is likely a suicidal lunatic, so I could understand the party wanting to stop after the leader died perfectly fine.
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Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
We have no problem with that, we want that. Why do you have a problem with using a good level scaling system to achieve that? Bolded part. Level scaling achieves the opposite. "Good level scaling system". R0flcopter Thanks for your post Valorian, I was beginning to wonder if I really was the only person on the forum who didn't get why level scaling isn't always a good thing. -
If you think shutting down a thread that is nothing but a 7 page long bashing of one person and their company as censorship then I hope you never practice what you preach outside of the internet. This thread isn't a flame war, it is just one non stop long running flaming train wreck. That and it is pretty much pure spam, there is no real discussion, nothing positive is being said, nothing good is going to come out of it. But then again maybe I am just some simple minded hick. I am after all from some dumb backwater where parents teach their kids things like "If you don't have anything good to say then keep it to yourself."
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"Because he isn't the main character" is common sense... Common sense rules the day at the Friendly Arm Inn. Forton is a NPC who is a member of my party. He is important, but he isn't MY character. Or to borrow my own words "... who is a member of my party". In other words my character is the boss, not Forton. It doesn't matter if there is some super power or not that makes it imperative that my character is there to defeat the baddies. What matters is that the main character is MY character and this is MY characters story. Not Forton's.
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Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
You will never see me using the words "well designed" in relation to any game with the Gothic title. Level scaling is not "There are two ogres in this room. Oh the PC showed up at level 7 instead of 5 lets add a third ogre." That is simply making the encounter slightly different to keep the challenge consistent. The ogre is still an ogre, none of them turned into Ogre Mages, none of them suddenly had +5 Katana's on them. If they want to enforce a consistent challenge level I personally think that is dumb because it never works, 3 ogres is really not actually harder to kill than 2 in practice even if it is in theory. It is better than level scaling sure but it is still not as good as simply making a well built encounter and letting the chips fall where they may. You can call the above example whatever you want (encounter scaling or otherwise) and it is fine for a table top game with 4 or more other people, but it sucks for a single player game I am playing alone. Why do you guys seems to have a problem with the idea of letting player go where he wants, when he wants, and maybe getting a rougher ride or an easier one when he gets there? Also for a game that was so unscaled and un linear I sure never felt challenged EVER by Fallout NV except when I went to the deathstalker dens after everyone and their brother told me not to. I still cleared most of the place out at very low level too. I literally started the game by going straight north to vegas then scratched my head reading forums where everyone said "you can't do that death stalkers kill you". I was like.... they do? Sure didn't stop me. The game never felt too "easy" but it certainly never felt hard. If you think they did that without heavy use of some type of scaling you are very mistaken. -
Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
This implies a linear area progression. One of the nice things about e.g. the Fallouts and BG2 was that the early to mid-game was not linear; all areas were accessible from the get-go. This means that the dev can't know how powerful the party is when they first enter an area. I for one prefer Fallout-type worlds to, say, Witcher type worlds, and would be a bit disappointed if P:E ended up linear. Junta you say this like BG2 wasn't designed just how I described? There was no scaling in that game. You guys seem to be mistaking good game design for linearity. Being linear means you have to go from point A to point B and there are few to no options on how to travel that route. What I am suggesting is "Make encounters in area X this strong, and no matter when the player shows up this is what you get in area X". You should show up before you are ready, you could show up after, you could show up at the perfect time, you might not show up at all. Fallout New Vegas on the other hand is this.... no matter what I do or where I go the enemies will always be based on how strong I am with a few exceptions. That pretty much sucks. It prevents me from ever really walking into an un-winnable encounter. It prevents me from ever having a truly hard fight that I can beat with good play. It prevents me from ever just going back to that old bandit fort that spanked me like a monkey way back when and absolutely laying waste to the place and getting bloody revenge. In short. It isn't as fun and it isn't believable. -
Illusion Magic & Mog Dance
Karkarov replied to Osvir's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
But you're not talking about illusion magic at all, then, you're talking about the Geomancer (or Feng Shui Knight, for an accurate translation, Feng Shui falling under the Western category of Geomancy anyway,) class/Geomancy ability like in FFT. The character you're talking about filled the role of Geomancer in FF6 which had no class system. Which wasn't illusion magic. At all. The idea of Feng Shui is sorcery based on spatial positioning/orientation, whose power is derived from the four cardinal directions and the center, these each being associated with an element in Chinese and derivative civilizations (Japan, Korea.) http://en.wikipedia....e_constellation In this case the five Japanese elements being relevant: http://en.wikipedia....ese_philosophy) . I think you are over analyzing what he is saying. All Osvir wants is to see illusion spells that can make the world look different from what it actually is. IE: A killing illusion that kills by making the opponent think they have been trapped in a deep pool of acid. Even though it is all in their head there can be an "effect" that makes it look like the dude has fallen in a river of acid. The problem with illusions for the most part is just that though, unless the player themselves is under the effect of the illusion you technically should not be able to "see" it since it literally isn't real and is purely in the mind of the afflicted. -
Level scaling and its misuse
Karkarov replied to Hormalakh's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
NO. Deja-Vu time. In a well balanced and properly made RPG the devs should know at any given moment how powerful the player is likely to be at each point in the story or when each area is first available. Thus they should tailor those encounters and those areas to that level of strength. If the player should somehow skip an area and not come back until they are much stronger so be it. They get the benefit of being able to steam roll it while feeling like bosses but realize the exp and loot was probably a little mediocre at best. Should they arrive early and decide to proceed so be it. They get to face added challenge with higher risk but the potential for greater rewards and bragging rights. If they show up at just the right time when they were intended to so be it. They get a good challenge but nothing crazy plus loot and exp that is relevant but not too high or too low. -
The passing of time and 24/7 shops
Karkarov replied to ambrusynev's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
I only agree in so far as that there should be an npc merchant (say a pawn shop) who will always buy anything. That way if you are just looking to offload your junk fast you can find someone to do it. But those who take the effort to sell to the appropriate vendor should get slightly better prices. I do agree 100% on one thing, Elder Scrolls games always limit the money a merchant has on them, which is dumb. If you don't want me to have money just give me a lower sell price on the goods, don't stop me from selling it in the first place cause the so called merchant is broke. -
The passing of time and 24/7 shops
Karkarov replied to ambrusynev's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Actually I didn't really suggest that but it is a good point. There definitely should be some vendors with premium stock that do requite hoops to be jumped through. -
PrimeJunta what's your beef?!?!!? Everyone knows a Warrior is only as badass as the size of his horns! If his helmet has no big bad ass horns he may as well just go to the kitchen and make everyone some muffins like all the other suzie homemakers! (if anyone doesn't get it I am joking ;p. Though I probably said that word for word while playing WoW more than once.)
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I am a bad ass adventurer killing machine. Unless my pet is able to tear a bandit limb from limb I don't want him around in the first place, he can just hang out at the house and chase mice instead. After all they are my cherished pet buddy, why would I want to risk their life in combat with a giant ogre or fire breathing drake if they were not able to be a legitimate threat on their own? I would be sending my supposedly loved cuddly little companion into certain doom! That said. Minsc and Boo were great, but Boo was a pet in name only. It was the writing and the voice acting that made them so cool. Boo if you didn't notice... never actually did anything other than squeak. The only game I have seen a pet done right (as an actual in game entity) was Dragon Age: Origins where they Mabari Hound literally is your pet but also serves as a stand alone party member. Like I said before if my pet is not capable of standing on their own 2 to 4..... possibly more feet/paws/claws, then they aren't worth having around outside of some players for RP purposes. So if they want pets to be something you keep with you, either go the Boo route and make it an NPC and be all in the writing while the pet never actually "exists" in game terms. Or make the pet a stand alone creature that is equal to any other party member. Otherwise just make them things that hang out at the player house and maybe have some funny little side missions or mini game like activities based around them. Such as tracking it as it sniffs for buried treasure in your back yard, or bringing it a collection of weird animal bones it can gnaw on which results in it fetching you a "adamant long sword +22 of slaying death and such" if you bring it like a hundred of em.