theBalthazar

You talk about resistance (best TRUE defenses actually indeed). I talk about pure defense. Might and dexterity resistance are so much better than a +10 in willpower/fortitude/reflexes. Question for you Boeroer : Why there 50 % hit to crit for Fighter ? because Obsidian realized the smallness of his small values. Sadly, it doesn't apply this for all values. Yes you can reach a good defense but it is not the question. The question is at what price and when ? With 2 times less abilities I am far more stronger with offensives stuff than that. You are an "artist" of building but you miss a thing. You look final picture with all bonuses. I look all levels of developpements. Level 1. Level 2-3. level 6, level 9. At each level you don't have your complete bonuses. In POE1 that was already the same stuff. Except for Chanter, you have no interrest to have a high defense. It is not totally rewarded by the game. Fighter and Paladin was awfully bad for that. Single target and slow. Add defenses by an external mean was a better idea. With Priest. Or we can't play the same game... It was ok with Chanter only because he had a fairly poor panel of talents + Good passives effects arround him (No really need to attack with Mith fyr (team) + Dragon thrashed (auto)) But at the end, high defense or not, I did not see any difference. So it is a proof that I could put it full offensive, without problem. And you can have this argument : Yes but Balthazar, you are an hardcore gamer, and for casual/begginner ? Think to them... They want a more secure situation. In fact no, the beginning of POE1 is far more easy with glass canon team. More the longer of fight it lasts, more you have a risk of death. And you know that : Chanter at the start of the game is a pure poop until level 9^^ So Yes, waiting to accumulate the bonuses until the end of the game (where this is far less useful...), you need a big starting bonus. +15 is needed. You know it is a dice roll of 100. So 10 is absolutely not crazy for one defense... Yes you can pick 3, but at the cost of 3 abilities points.

For 3 guiles and against only a single target, I want a skill with +50 % damage. For 2 guiles Barbaric blow is now OK. For 2 guiles, Mule kick will be OK IF distracted is repaired. But Rogue have only trash active abilities. Same for the concussive shot of ranger. fortunately only one bond. I'm not even sure that worth it's this price... If I can change a thing : concussive shot is a shot in the head. There is a notion of risk. - Hit to crit : 40 % + Interruption on hit + 20 % of critical hit. - Or/And Paralysed / Stunned ?

Lol you already have 2 slots. Far enough in all cases. +10 in one defense is extremely weak. Not really generous. If you give +5 in accuracy with one ability, you must at least give +15 in one of 4 defenses. Accuracy is the general response against 4 defenses. So we can up until a bonus a 20 (5x4), easily. But globally 15 is a good average. 10 seems to be pretty weak.

Yes. Totally agree. That's why I prefer that Obsidian erase all useless options ("Scales" "only up" story and all expert mode and create ONE GAME) and create a mode for solo player with a different difficulty. And allow a mode for team building with 5 characters. It will become more accurate for POTD with a higher difficulty. Plus, side note don't Forget, me, you, Josh, we are hardcore gamer and expert of pillars. They are people who want MAX difficulty but in a reasonnable measure. Stay with a lot of team building for fun+difficulty. It is understandable. That's why I hate game where your choice is imposed and you have no more freedom with the greatest difficulty (Fire Emblem is the perfect example in hightest difficulty : 3/4 of characters are good for trash. Stay the main hero + Oifaye Character + 1-2 horse knight of the start of the game. Level of choice when there is optimization = 0). Absurd difficulty is not desirable. Limit is : A good challenge with optimal teams. No more, no less. Like that, you have very hard challenge with only "viable" teams. But all this stay "possible".

Crit to Hit is not Hit to Crit. Crit to Hit is damage received by player. 50 % of chance damages become a Hit when it is critical. Constitution cover Health / s and armor. Might, penetration. Perception Hit to crit and graze to hit. Intelligence +1 power level. Resolve, concentration. ----------------------------- For recovery, difficult to split, because often, Obsidian add a new trick each level of inspiration. Anf if we retain the best for the end : * Dexterity +5 ** Dexterity +5 Stride +50 % 50 % Crit to hit *** Swift Dexterity +5 Stride +100 % 50 % Crit to hit -20 % of recovery

I am more concerned by balanced CHOICES in trees panels. Inner each classes ... With this system, it is too difficult to create perfect balancing between single and multi. But if it is viable and not too far of the optimal part, there is no true problems. In on other hand, if you had a poor choice, perhaps there a "general balance" but this become un-fun to play... So there a balance between Fun side / Amplitude of choice / Balanced side.

One solution is to put a good bonus with trash bonus. Like +15 % Stride -5 % of recovery Or +10 defense when disengaging -40 % damage when disengaging. +1 engagement and +5 in fortitude and deflection. ETC ETC... Always try to catch a fish.

Because DPS is the fastest way to finish a battle and contain a problem. Pick up all "bad" passive abilities and try. See the difference in effectiveness. It is a good tool to move faster. But absolutely not a must when you are in melee. Same for disengaging. I disengaging 1 % of time and often there is a death behind. Because run is a bad idea. You reload and found a better strat. So yes, it is obvious : few abilities are completely useless and serve nothing. Except newbie (And even...) can make a mistake and take this. So newbie trap or create an illusion of choice. But it is not a choice. A true choice : (abilities doesn't exist) Hero's might : +15 % of Might under 50 % of health. OR Velocity of champions : +10 % of recovery when full health. HERE. You have uniques abilities. WITH a true choice. In Line 2 of figther for example. All Unique Abilities are often a true choice. Retribution, fighter stances, barbaric blow etc...

All depend of degree of asymetric. In POE1. You have one character for one class. So, balancing is important but slighty less than here. Why ? Because you compare not class VS class. But Classx2 VS Single class or Class x2 VS Class x2 PLUS, each level you can invest in passive OR active ability with the same "money". So, if you haven't a symetric gameplay, you can effectively legitmate : Fast Runner : +15 % Stride +5 Defense when disengaging One Ability point. VS Fighter Stances : 3 differents stances among +attacks on kill and +5 accuracy against solo foes. One Ability point. Hard choice... : p

Hum... Not bad. We can't give Action speed (Monk +5 dex, already in action speed indirecly, + 20 % action speed in bonus, so if we add +20 % in Swift : it is weird etc.). But recovery is possible. It is a new concept. Swift +5 dex 50 % Crit to hit -20 % of recovery +100% stride Immunity to engagement is already cover by a lot of concept. Not particularly linked to a man "swift" ? (fast, rapid, quick, prompt, speedy) = Linked to the movement ?

+1 Totally agree. I have already note that with my analysis of abilities. I add a thing : With wizard, you have fleet feet without malus. Few level later deleterious alacrity with a malus and hardly better. A good proposition could be : Swift +5 dex 50 % Crit to hit +100% stride and Immune to disengagement You avoid the most dangerous shots with good reflexes.

Ideally, with all team (and a solo character) and a good micro-management, I must be end all fight. Even in POTD. Here it is not really the case except with weird strategies. In POTD this becoming absurd. And gears yes. But we are level 6 at the moment of the game. So... We can't be sure of the quality of gears.

In fact, the big problem is : If you nerf Fighter like 25 % of hit to crit. He become a big poop. Except if we consider devoted. Fighter have two really "+" : 1) cleave stance 2) Disciplined strike. If you nerf one of these abilities, Obsidian kill the contract with single target. Indead cleave is all arround but only if you kill someone. It is normal that a globally single target do more damage in his niche. That's why Rogue with 10 % of dirty fighty is big a lol actually. Ranger and Rogue, big loser of BB3-4. When Obsidian put 5 % hit to crit in the last abilitie. = 2.5 % So if in the head of obsidian he want to increase by 5 real %. It must useful to up until 10 % like said Dunehunter. That's also why 5 % of one ability of paladin is very bad. 2.5 % of critical of all party members. WTF. Virtually at the cost of 2 abilities points. Laughable. In my head the perfect balancing is : 50 % Hit to crit DISCIPLINED STRIKE Fighter. Cost : 1 Power source. 2 abilities points 40 % Hit to crit BERSERKER FRENZY Barbarian. Cost : 1 Power source (Frenzy) + Confused. 25 % Hit to crit DIRTY FIGHTING Rogue. Cost : Passive ability. 10 % Hit to crit. ZEALOUS FOCUS Paladin. Cost : Passive on all team. 2 abilities points 10 % Hit to crit UNCANNY LUCK. Cost : Passive on only one guy. Personnally, I have never take Zealous focus at 5 %. Pure loss atm. (And with bad stacking rules of Obsidian, that's become useless) If it is 10 % and stack... I can start to think of it. Not crazy but OK.

In fact, the interest of devoted / Berath is cleave stance + Modal of greatsword = crazy damage. The advantage is : - 2H is 99 % of time less good than 2W, but here this is crazy damage. - Cleave is a "one shot" approach after a kill. That advantage strongly 2H. After what, if in the game, there is a better weapon, the part of "priest damage" is strongly reduce. But at the start of game (line II of spells) +50 % acid is unique and very good.

Devoted / Berath is excellent. Paladin annoy me because I cannot add bleak walker. So this is not the best combo.

+1 And we don't know if ennemies after that have a increased armor. We don't know. Surely few bosses ? But also ennemies at the end of the game so... Perhaps a highter pen will be useful, we don't know. IF, I say IF it is not a bug, I will UP his position. But I strongly think this is bug. Obsidian rarely jump an effect like that. In recent times, he has rather wanted to sacrifice overtime damage with chanter. Wait and see.

In a complete system you are true MadDem. +1 penetration is very complicated to justify because it is hard to say when it is really usefull overall. "+1 penetration and +5 % damage." would be cool for example. And becoming more "clear" in the head of the player. But here, often there is a non-choice (Often a poor choice of passive abilities for example). And at this moment, I take the +1 penetration. Always better than few trash abilities. And if we cannot enjoy this little abilities : this validate my other point : New passives are scams, nothing do a real difference !^^ So I agree, Obsidian like to create unbalanced abilities. Im pretty surezwe can create a tiers list of Abilities : p, it would be fun (and tragic)... This is more comparative since you can multi class. Because your ability point can be used for 2 panel. Comparison become more "exiguous". And abilities "equity" -should be- MORE respected. But this is not totally the case...

Single doesn't gain as much. If you have +++ of abilities but that your pool is composed of abilities that make too little difference (+25 disengaging, +15 % stride, +10 willpower, reflex, fortitude, +2 health per level = 40 at the end not crazy, 5 % of avoid attack (= 95 % of attacks works) ), in this case single is not really stronger. So I think Multiclass is far ahead atm. Problem seems to be a lack of choice in the panel for both single and multi. If not we would not ask ourselves the question and single class COULD BE a very good investment. Actually not at all... It slightly better, but largely not enough.

For me I think it is a bug. No indication of that in the description. And I doesn't do/undo a list on bugs. If not, few classes in Beta 1 was godly strong. Far better than Devoted...

1) All tiers list are subjectives. 2) To answers : That's why, they up slightly less than bleak walker. +25 % critical damage / Penetration +2. And my list is do on a judgement of Subclass in singleclass, more than multiclass. Fighter is globally extremely equilibrate in accuracy + Damage + Penetration + Critical damage + Cleave stance. There is one irregular exception, a troll we can say, for black jacket because I think the concept of this subclass is totally useless. They "up !"... And don't forget low tiers is not bad tiers. Like DB fighter Z tiers. Differences are infinitesimal. I personnally prefer kill my opponent, more than create a chain of spells deception. One is good, no need to more. Ok but not top tiers. Chanter is excellent. But if your purpose is to finish the battle in the fastest way, he is not the first. He is good but not crazy. Soft is only 2 HP per 3s. And 2 raw damage per 3s. Nothing revolutionnary. No need of move classes for that. Priest still suffers from a certain length to attack. It is better now. They "up" (I forgot the symbol, I will edit just after that). But compared to the rest, they cannot to hoist top tiers, no. Problem, we don't have high level spells. So, in this situation, Ascendant will become perhaps god tiers, but we don't know, so... I stay on Level 9 (indication of level at the start of my tiers list) With the full game this list will perhaps completely explode for a new Meta-game, it is extremely possible indead, but now, we cannot know. Even in multiclass I doesn't feel a lack of ressource cost with others classes (except for Rogues sometimes). So atm, Ascendant is absolutely not in trash tiers, but no more (for me).

Tiers list – Beta 4 - Until level 9 GOD TIERS Devoted (Fighter) Berserker (Barbarian) UP ! He gain one of three Style but loses +6 of accuracy. He also gain +25 % damage with barbaric blow. TOP TIERS Bleak walker (Paladin) UP ! All paladins gain +2 penetration for FoD. Shifter (Druid) Unbroken (Fighter) Base Fighter Nalpazca (Monk) Base barbarian Base Monk Goldpact knights (Paladin) UP ! Shieldbearer of St Elcga (Paladin) UP ! Kind wayfarers (Paladin) UP ! Darcozzi Paladini (Paladin) UP ! Shattered pillar (Monk) Penalty too strong if not... It could be highter MID TIERS Base Druid Base Chanter Mage slayer (Barbarian) Assassin (Rogue) Base Rogue Troubadour (Chanter) Sharpshooter (Ranger) Beckoner (Chanter) Lifegiver (Druid) Soul blade (Cipher) UP ! Return of Might. Few interresting passives abilities. LOW TIERS Fury (Druid) Street fighter (Rogue) Trickster (Rogue) Corpse eater (Barbarian) Helwalker (Monk) Good when multiclass but very bad deal (With 5 wounds : +15% damage AND +25 % more received damage WTF far too much…) Skald (Chanter) All priest UP ! Base Wizard UP ! All Wizard earn a better casting time + 2 good passives abilities. Trash tiers : exit ! Youpi ! Ascendant (Cipher) UP ! Base Cipher UP ! Same reasons heres. Beguiler (Cipher) UP ! All spe wizard UP ! Ghost heart (Ranger) Stalker (Ranger) TRASH TIERS Black jacket (Fighter)

Pet Ranger is weaker than his POE1 version. It is strange because, it is an eternal repetition. In version 2.0++ there is a boost of power for ranger. Because before he was bad. Here, I think Obsidian doesn't feel this lack of might. Nerf of Pet. Ultra nerf of overtime damage (40 % now...) No penetration boost Subclasses are all complicated to play or with high malus, or too restrictive. He have no specificities except tank with his pet.

There is too few passives abilities. On the paper, I am for to deal with "ex-talents of POE1 becoming unique." But here, there is a scam : it is severely lacking of choice. And Obsidian reinjected some stews to content single class. But EVEN in single class, there is hardly more choice... And multiclass, with the reclassing of few abilities become a real strangulation to do a good choice. OR you accept to deal with +10 in willpower, +25 disengaging, +15 % of stride and others poops... even if you don't want put in this. A choice is between 2 choices interresting. The measure is : a good panel in single class and a great panel in multiclass. Actually this is bad in both for physical classes. Wizard is now the only exception. Ideally, it missing 1-2 uniques passives abilities per line ! this grib of POE1 transplanted to POE2 does not work because the cake is too small, the parts are too small. Where is the +6 of accuracy of barbarian ? Obsidian think he can take things away when it's already hard to choose! : p You think it is a non-choice ? It is exacly the OPPOSITE !^^ If you create more interresting passives abilities, +6 in accuracy become not necessarily an immediate choice. But if there is a lack of choice : YES, all players will take this essential. Obsidian take the problem in the wrong way.

often have two attacks when I kill someone. Worth it. Personnally my problem is more +5 of accuracy. Normally for a dual for a boss for example. Except there is an awful stacking rule. If you have a paladin in your team. Your stance is useless. But Cleave stance is OK when you have 2 or more people around you.

If Obsidian don't create more passives abilities, a big +1. Sometimes there is nothing inspiring at a specific level so this will be a good feature.