theBalthazar

Yes and when I have analysed all the spells/abilities, I found illogical, a spell level 1 of wizard Fleet feet ( same Main bonus + no malus) was better than the mythical Deleterious alacrity of motion. Swift (inspiration level 3 of dexterity) should be : +5 Dex +100 % stride, immune to engagement and +10 % speed attack. Deleterious become more logical with this bonus. You have a malus but a real demarcation of fleet feet. For your case, totally agree. It is weird.

I don't want skip it because it is new / different of a CRPG or TRPG. Trully. But actually this mini-game/additionnal gameplay is awful. Not satisfaying. Everybody say that. I observe Obsidian's forum all days. Nobody tell this is fantastic. If it's really bad at the launch date of the game, critics will come down to stop the game. "Sadly, the biggest novelty does not bring anything, it is boring." "Apart from the multiclass, nothing new under the sun" It is unfortunate that this phase is not interesting. I would like it to be. But precisely, when you like something, you have invest on this project, you must tell the truth. Otherwise everyone is an ostrich. (Perfect Obsidian ! No default ! keep on going !)

True. Example with Neverwinter nights 2 : 16 pre-buff. 60s / level = ~ok 6 pre-buff 6s / level = Generally each big battle if not you rest extremly often... Pre-buff break the rythm and promotes full knowledge of the game. absurdly long ! Sawyer is right.

Yes ! Frankly, All could be simple if everything stacked. Fairer.

Afflictions (consecutives) + Pure bonus (https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Godansthunyr) stack Quick. Too bad for me : p

You too on the legitimacy of the post that triggers all that. You not worth it and it was rethorical, obviously : ) Good, go back to more interresting stuff, like Sawyer tweets. You parasitize the topic, and that was the aim of your previous audacious step ; )

You can't control people. If they want to talk about a thing, they talk about that. During 20 pages. Not your problem. There's no quota here. If your are not interrested by actual subject, talk about someting else, or does not interfere. If you have a better subject, we follow you, dude. But stop insinuate that the time is up. And that you whistle the end of recess. By writing your sentence you will do more drama. because it calls for reactions. Your are not a modo. And the topic will lose more time to answer your attempt of censure that he would to speak again about proficiencies. I evoke the topics of Pillars 2 that I want, as often as I want. Nobody will tell me what to say or not. Thanks.

This topic is crazy ! : ) Good work !

Josh = various subjects concerning POE2. If not, it's just a showcase and there's no discussion. Twitter is already here for that. Not my vision of a forum.

I strongly disagree. For me 2H MUST be the best DPS. 2H > 1H Slow > 1H Fast > DW Slow > DW_Fast > > > Shield_Fast > Shield_Slow Speed add 'secret values' of DPS... at equal DPS... Ideally : 2H = 4s, with best DPS 1H = 3s 1H Fast = 2s It is logical, if your weapon is heavier, you attack slightly slower. Equal DPS = I choose Dual wielding because fast attack add an additionnal invisible DPS. (bottleneck effect = 50 000 damages on 30s recovery with an ennemy with 1 HP left... Loss of 49 999 damage, and I have to wait 30s) + Double effect of two weapons > One effect to one weapon. (Unique, Soulbound)

Yes dopple. But if you want use ALL weapons ? Why not offer for free all modals ? As they was already there. without investment ? FAR MORE simple to understand if it is the purpose of developpers... All weapons have a modal, already integrated when you equip it. You not create a trick of gameplay, a whole system... for this... ? If not it becomes so generic and so general. Like now.

I don't speak of MaxQuest's mods in my previous post. More the last Beta. Perhaps I don't understand but you move your wizard to approach it ? indeed in this case you have more range.

Lol. Troll inside.

Personnally I have no problem with any design. Problem here (I speak for myself) My two melees kill all the melee ennemies in less than 6s. So you cast your only fireball and... No... you can't retarget to wizards ennemies because your out of range. (happens more often than we think.) So cast only one fireball is not a problem if : - I am sure there is an effect (reach) (But not totally the case with the game system of POE series Kill-Moving forward-Kill etc.) - Damages are strongs. Idea of "long casting" is good, application is more problematic. You want a revelation ? There was spells of level 14-16 in POE1. Extremely powerful. But... Never used. Why ? Because far too long. Not worth it. When you have a good team glass cannon, this is useless. After that, yes, you can DON'T PICK fireball. It is true. So why not, after all, for slow teams.

Yes ! With a better system you can do : Black Jacket - Increase the bonus with the first point, and decrease the malus directly with the second point. (Two points spend rather than three (see my system previously)) Or/and, if we are crazy (because black jacket is actually one of the worst subclass) : - Remove malus of a proficiency fully upgraded. ------ Normal Character 1 Acqusition (Like now in Beta 1-3) 2 Increase the bonus (Variable) 3 Decrease the malus (/2 ?) Black Jacket 1 Acquisition of the proficiency. Bonus already increased. 2 Malus totally supressed. With that, interrest of the poor black jacket is tenfolded. ^^ (It will never shine next to the Devoted otherwise ... : p)

Hum... Interresting post of Mr Sawyer. But if trash mobs and titan can't be taken for benchmark. Spells seem to be intended to what ?^^ boss battle ? (With empower ? It is indeed extremely powerful, no doubt) But, in this case, subsidiary question : often (not always) a boss is a unique monster. What is the point to send a fireball whose goal is to attack a group. In this way of thinking, Fireball of POE1 have a better fits his own function (Less damages/fast attack for a group of trash mobs). Or we have to find the in-between.

Snif : p

MaxQuest Mod. You have try his mod ?^^ Purpose of this topic... I have already specified three/four posts highter : Anyway if you pick up my calculations, it is not possible to come at nerf +53 % between POE1 and 2, without 3s base speed. Based on MaxQuest proposition. So Yes with 4s it is more "balanced" (naively). But even with 4s, people complain about casting speed of casters. Why ? Because in the course of the fight seems irrationnal. OR there is a part of bias for old players of Pillars 1. (Internal reference of shorter timing) ...And that was the objective of my first post...^^ Compared pillars 1 and pillars 2 beta. To conclude, Yes. And for me. The perfect position and example of Fire ball is balanced around : My taste : In POE1, I have never used slow spells, because it was awful to use. It was 5.63 s Effect+completion (I don't talk of recovery) So for deadfire : 5s max (And in my list, AoE damage are the longest spells...) 1s (if we stay on a total of 6s) And with that, correct damages (Like MaxQuest's proposition like 43-55). But more than 5s is bad idea for me. It is my taste, my feel and my calculations. Balthazar

No, casting time is far more important with spells. 0.7s vs 5s is not the same thing... So yes you mix the two values when you say 6s, it is a fact. (CT+R 4.5 + 1.5, or 5 + 1) But side effects only applie on casting time. That's why interruption is more problemetic with casters. Same, when you start casting time, you cannot go back and retarget outside your reach. Often, a lot of things happen in 5s. the fighting situation can change dramatically. Plus, you can want do an another spell urgently, and break yourself your casting time... So yes, side effects are not "I don’t know why u say it’s far less here.". If not nobody would complain about that. There is a problem with casting time. I try to explain why. Bottleneck effect applie to 4s recovery time+heavy armor too, yes, that does not mean we can not compare the rest ... And you can remove an armor. You cannot reduce a casting speed if we excude dexterity (Because also the case for an armor / recovery of a weapon). Comparison between POE1 and 2 is comparison between 1 and 2. No more. I only explain the gap. Doesn't remove the fact of 6s of casting speed : I explain why people feel spend so much time, for high difference of memories with POE1. Initial purpose is not to include melee at all, dude... After that, I include Melee for you, with 3s of MaxQuest proposition. So it is not 4s but 3s. With that, we are at 5s (heavy armor include), so less than the fire ball. But in anycase, I like the 3s for melee, it is more logical. I prefer the proposition of MaxQuest. 4s is strange.

- But dude, you ask a comparison between melee and caster for Deadfire. So yes, Dual wieiding is needed. Two elements of THIS game. Not previous game... My base concept was just curiosity to compare the difference between two games. If you include POE2 melee, now it is only a comparison between classes VS classes. So with all theyre tools. - You mix casting time and recovery time. Plate is recovery time, no casting time. Casting time is problematic because if you are interrupt, you lose everything. Ressource and time. Bottleneck effect is also present with two handed obviously but not at the same level. 3.7 is not ~near 6s. It is far less WTF... And heavy armor is not an obligation. PS : All my calculations are on MaxQuest proposition. 3s or recovery is far more logical. And give a necessity to go down a little more the spells (casting time). - In PoE 1, I finish all bosses in PoTD in 15s of less easily, so yes, there is always a bottleneck effect here or here. But more longer is a spell, more chance he has to not kill ennemy. (last strike) That's why fast attack always finish ennemies. And that why you must give a little bonuses for high recovery/high casting speed. If not at equal situation of DPS, I prefer dual wieiding and fast spells. Less waste. Simple to understand. I end here for the calculation today.

The main problem of Power Level is indications for understand his reach. We can call that tomatoes/DPS or else, in the game, it must be appear somewhere. And the most simple way to do that ... ------------------- Flames of Devotion Accuracy : 20 Fire Damage : 40 % ------------------- (And then, slide your mouse on "40 %") = Tooltip Single class : Base : 20 % Power Level : 20 % (Gain of 5 % each 5 levels) Tooltip Multi class : Base : 20 % Power Level : 15 % (Gain of 3 % each 4 levels) In this case we are visibly level 20 and single class. Cool ! Done !^^ Power Level is now an understandable concept.

Like I said previously, if your battle has been going on for 10s. You hit at 6s with your fireball. But we cannot count 4 last seconds, spell will not arrive to terms. Loss : 40 % of the second iteration. This can be happened. Players feel (perhaps it is true, perhaps it is false) a lack of efficiency of casters. Players feel globally the bottleneck effect (That why 8s casting time is a crazy idea...). Doable with the titan for example. Generally down in 10-15 seconds. In POE1 for exemple, Fire ball was Fast speed. This change everything. Beyond the numbers. 2.23 seconds cut the new iterations much better. 2.23s x 3 is MUCH MORE effctive than 6s once (Bottleneck Effect + Less risk of interrution etc etc.) And this whatever the damages. So, to answer to your question : with pure numbers, there is a gap of 7% of DPS against POE2 casters. Absolute difference between melee and casters. (Without count Dual wield/single weapon bonus of accuracy...) I say no to give the same power to casters they had in POE1, but there is a happy medium. 15 % is the minimum, and people seem to be violently feeling side effects. But casting time also increase. And there are side effects. (bottleneck effect). Extremely difficult to calcul, but they are here. 15-7 = 8 % of side effect is a very little number. But I stay cautious. this must be counted. Like a bonus. MaxQuest have take ~10 % for these effects but increased recovery/cast time in a same time. So it is a leverage effect. I think we have to be at least 15% of the current value needed (at total). Whether in cast time or damage. FIREBALL Damages : 37-48 (like now) Casting time : 4s (~ -15% with rounding) Recovery : 1s Or Damages : 43-55 (~ +15%) Casting time : 5s Recovery : 1s Obviously, I prefer the first proposition. I am an hardcore gamer, I can kill the titan in 8s, so sooner the spell is out, the better is the situation. Long casting time annoy casual gamers (interrution after 4s, I don't know the game, and I am even more punished, because I have to redo 5 seconds of casting time again to launch it.) and hardcore gamers (My ennemy already die, my wizard cast only one spell overall... WTF ?) So I prefer the first version ^^... So, I resume my thinking : if in the next beta, spells down again to 1s of casting time (for the 5s/8s category of casting time), we will start to enter in a "logic zone" Before that, casters are not worth a nail.

84 frames = average 1H = 2 seconds 1H in POE1 = 2s 1H in POE2 = 3.7s Melee = nerf of +53 % (*1.53) Fireball = nerf of +60 % (*1.6) And here we don’t count dual wielding bonuses. And not more a single weapon accuracy bonus. Only a slow "Weapon + small shield" for exemple. We can admit a difference of 7 % nerf overall of casters. But there is a new thing to understand : - With a longer cast time, you increase the part of risk. Interruption : Loss of your ressource point, loss of time (If there is an interrution after 4 seconds of casting = it is a crazy loss of time for 10s of battle). It is Awfully risky. - If there is no ennemies, retarget cannot re-cast further than is reach = loss. - Bottleneck effect, more damage you do, the longer you do it, less you have targets, greater is the loss. - Bottleneck effect also applicable on the number of participations during the fight. If your fight during 10 seconds and you cast your spell in 6s. There is a maximum loss. You only attack once. All of this widely balance all of "per rest" story (for me it is a non-story, because technically with a rest = per encounter situation) That's why two handed style must always be in front of DPS. Same for high casting time spells (5s+) MaxQuest applied a *1.15 bonus to the actual fire ball damages. Good number. 7 % + a slighty boost for the risk = ~ 15 % seems legit. But only if you don't touch CASTING TIME !... So I'm right. It's not just the general slowdown gap. After that, you can decide to stay with my proposition or decrease for exemple the casting time of 15 %. It is a another solution. Fire ball 37-48 (like now) 4s Casting time (~ -15% with rounding) 1s Recovery In addition, this 15% is important, because I estimate that it is the current gap between spells and melee, in a large majority of cases. (There is always exceptions)

I think it is a bug, it is not possible to stay like this...

I have do a small calcul tu understand the shift between POE1 and POE2. Here the result : Fireball POE1 Fast speed 81 frames = 2.23 seconds (Cast time + Recovery) Damages : 25-35 POE2 DEADFIRE BETA --> ACTUALLY 6 seconds (Cast time + Recovery) Damages : 37-48 ------------------------- CALCULATION of the gap... 2.23s = 25-35 Should be… 6s = 67 - 94 (Actually 37 - 48) So we can say : Either there is a lack of power, or there is too much casting time. Even if we consider a nerf of POE1, the gap is insane actually. If you want my opinion (I will give it anyway: p) perfect balancing of Fire ball : (including a nerf...like Obsidian seems to want) Fire ball Casting time : 5s Recovery : 1s Damages : 40-56 67 and 94 * 0.6 = Nerf of 40 % compared to Pillars 1. Enough like this. More, there is highter risk of interrution, etc. In 5 seconds I can do a lot of damage with melee. Even with retarget there is a risk of "no ennemies in area" and "hurt an ally". So in short, I take damages of MaxQuest, and I stay with 6s CT+R max.