Boeroer

Playing the lance guy atm - I don't know, but in early levels Merciless Caze is really useless. Even in longer fights it may trigger once, I never saw it trigger twice - i mostly graze at the moment. But that's still a lot of damage with Concelhaut's Staff. Siphon is much cooler in my opinion. Might change with more levels though...

ok

But how to determine what is best without certain criteria - like how much time passed from start to end? Brynlod def. is the hardest encounter, but I don't know if it's a lot of fun to do only that. It's a really tedious fight. Maybe it would make a good final though. But I would start with something easier.

How come? At lvl 16 he should have more ACC bonus via Novice's Suffering than most weapons can get.

Always put out some figurines. With the barb I also survived some encounters with figurines although I was already dead. Just lure the enemies to a different location, if you think things go south summon a beetle or whatever. Even if you die and the summon disappers after it's duration wears off you will still get up after the bounty guys return to their places. But maybe I tested that with a party in the back and only send the chanter in to test this. Most of the time I test builds with some other guys at the edge of the encounter to prevent annoying encounter cancellations due to mind control.

@K Galen B: Good to know, thanks for the info. I used it a lot with a blaster build quit some time ago and I couldn't remember if a spell mastery would make sense or not. @prototype00: Merciless Gaze doesn't seem to make a lot of difference compared to other lvl-2-spells like Corrosive Siphon (which is really good: AoE dmg + healing). Combusting Wounds is also good with the Lance. But MG lasts for a long time which is also a good thing. In solo runs it will be better than with parties: the longer the encounter, the better the payoff of Merciless Gaze I guess. As I said I will test a bit more and then I'll see what feels is the best choice. Maybe it will be Merciless Gaze, who knows?

But we shouldn't make things too complicated. I think it's not possible to come up with a competition that will give you the best overall build. It will only give you the best build for this special competition - like you said: the best racing car for a special course. But that's ok for me. Developing a competition that takes "everything" into account will take forever and I also think it wouldn't be too complicaed to be much fun. We shoudl keep the rules simple and the work you have to put into the competition shouldn't bee too hard. If we want to copmare other aspects of builds (who are not good at this competition but we know they are good at something else) we can come up with another competition later, for example a supporter competition. We could define a given, generic character that needs to do an encounter and then you'll have to come up with competetive builds that support that character the best they can.

It's damage is not too good. But sure, with enough healing bonuses it can be good. And for HoF you can always switch to a second weapon set that's more optimized for it.

@Ben: it's a solo competition.

I also used the exact same barb for a solo run - at the same time Kaylon did. It was a funny coincidence. You have to know that it doesn't always work out like this. Often enough the barb gets disabled and dies. Of course nobody would post that on Youtube. Actually I solo'd Magran's Faithful with a chanter and Black Sanctuary: go in with Cape of the Cheat, withdraw and switch to one handed setup. Don'tknow if I can repeat it, but it felt OK. Less fuzz than with the barb + Frenzy + Dragon Leap + Combusting Wounds + HoF (trying to get them all) + Barbaric Blow + Vengeful Defeat. Of course the barb's HoF+ action is more impressive.

I would prefer no consumables. They lead to the same tactics with every class. Figurines would be OK I guess. Maybe we shouldn't pick the toughest bounty which only tanks or kiters can win but choose encounters that become a bit more difficult with each "round". Like three difficult but not too hefty bounties that you can do one after another (and three times each).

I only did bounty testing so far. Can't say how it fares throughout a whole playthrough - I will find out this evening I guess. But since it's a wizard it will be all good I guess. Spell Masteries: I will test different spells. But my first guess is 2-Corrosive Siphon, 3-Alacrity & 4-Pull of Eora. Lvl 1 i'm not sure. Either Wizard's Double, Eldritch Aim or Spirit Shield. For level 2 I will also test if using Infuse with Vital Essence prophylactically will reduce health loss a lot or not. Stats with higher values will be MIG, INT and PER. DEX, RES and CON will remain untouched I guess. When I choose to max MIG/INT/PER I might have to dump one stat, maybe RES. Then I will def. take Spirit Shield as mastery for lvl 1. Or I will put DEX, RES and CON at 08 or so. I'll see how things work out. Of course you can use Abydon's Hammer - especially the 1/encounter stun before going in and for some AoE spells in order to deal more damage. I think I will not have to rest because I don't have no use of Spirit Lance left, but mainly because my health is low or my uses for self buffs are all gone.

The Ogres outside the cave have enormous endurance, but low defenses. This may favour builds with lots of damage but low ACC. For example. Maybe it would be fair to define three different bounties. Upscaled Brynlod is too tedious in my opinion. It would take a lot of time to complete 10 runs against him and it favours high defense builds. The whole thing shouldn't be too much work though - nobody will do this if you need a whole day for completing it.

See? How do you want to compare the dps potential if not competing solo? With a party there are too many possibilites, synergies and so on to really compare dps without a ton of kerfuffle.

You know this is great fun for me, arguing about ths stuff. I had an idea... Watch here: PoE Class Build Arena

While discussing the power of certain builds I had an idea for a competition here in this subforum: We won't have PvP in PoE and therefore can't have duels. But maybe we can compete in a different way? Why don't we define certain rules for a class build competition and then keep track of people's results with a highscrore list that gets updated? If we make this a sticky post it could become not only a competition but also a good source of knowledge for class building. And it puts all those building we do to a fun purpose. I'd say every attempt should go into a seperate thread (like we do it with class builds). We could name them "[ARENA FIGHT] <name of the build> (class)" and the results can be put onto the list here (also like we do with the class builds in Andrea's sticky list - which is awesome by the way). So let's say we define the following rules (I'm totally open for different/more suggestions, just discuss): - do a specified encounter (maybe bounty?) 10 times in a row with the same lvl 16 solo char of your liking. This would be more easy to do than 10 different encounters (too much travelling). Or do 5 times this encounter and 5 times that so that the types of enemies are more diversed? - no consumables and resting bonuses - or doping allowed? - spell bindings, chances, holdings, defenses etc. are allowed, enchantments too. - obvious bugs or glitches (e.g. Confident Aim bug) don't count - count the seconds from the start of each encounter to the end and add them up over the 10 attempts. That will be your score. The less the better. Like with racing. - we could define some additional bonuses for retaining a lot of endurance/health or something like that. And if you ask me, we could also give some bonus points for stylish appearance (if it doesn't mean too much fuzz to vote). - we need a rule what happens if you get knocked out in an encounter (penalty seconds or sth. like that?) What do you think? This should be a lot of fun.

I'm not arguing The Dragon Thrashed vs a whole barb. I'm arguing chanter vs. barb. If you want to compare abilities only we could do Dragon vs. HoF. The Dragon Thrashed also does more damage with a crit (not *1.5 though) - so that's not an argument in favor of the barb. The thing is the huge radius. And dps is all the damage you do combined in a given time. If the encounter ends more quickly your dps was higher. Higher numbers that pop out of enemies' heads don't mean the overall DPS is higher. The ultimate test in game is to start encounter and count the seconds until the encounter ends. When fighting bounties solo with a single handed chanter with maxed out ACC and Aspirant's Mark (and focus on self healing rather than deflection) a lvl 16 chanter always finishes the encounter more quickly for me than a barb - because he covers ALL enemies. With 22 INT and 22 PER and 20 MIG (doesn't need to be 30 - I try to argue with numbers that you can have every encounter without too much fuzz) - an item with Overseeing and the Voice of the Mountaintop he will cover an enormous radius and will hit with over 120 ACC with his chant without ANY buff. Cast Aspirant's Mark at the start of the encounter from stealth and go in. You will have killed the whole group more quickly than any barb. Maybe in theory, on paper and when everything goes smooth the barb could end the encounter more quickly - but in reality I don't see that happen too often - you will get interrupted, maybe go prone and then tour DPS stops. And as I said: the chanter can do other stuff while chanting - like dropping 3 fireballs on enemies' heads or stuff. A barb can't do this without stopping his swings. As I said: during many tests I did not encounter a barb who could kill - let's say the Ogres in Elmshore - faster than said chanter. An I did solo runs until that point with both. You seldomly have the perfect encounter with a barb where you reach all enemies with HoF. Sometimes you have casters standing elsewhere and you have to pull (=loss of dps). Sometimes you get disabled. Maybe in theory, against training dolls, the damage output of a barb can be higher, but I doubt it's the case when you actually play the game.

Only the ACC malus of the shield (if any). Some abilites work with the single handed +12 ACC bonus though - like The Dragon Thrashed and White Worms. Maybe there are other spells/abilities that have this "feature", too.

It's certainly not. DPS is not only the single target damage, it's the combined damage he does in the whole AoE. Do a solo fight against any bounty on PoTD (more enemies than the barb can cover with carnage) with a chanter and then a barb and then we talk again. The chanter will kill all foes a lot faster every time. One of the many advantages of the chanter is that he doesn't stop chanting when he's prone and his chants don't get interrupted. At lvl 16 with normal stats (optimized, but not fully buffed with consumables and stuff) he will deliver a Dragon Thrashed chant with 60 to 80 burn AND 60 to 80 slash damage every 4 seconds in a very, very big AoE which no barb can ever achieve. I did tons of solo fights with both classes to find new powerful builds and while I really love barbs there's nothing that kills mobs faster than a chanter with Dragon Thrashed - not even wizards. Even if we think about optimzed HoF which is very powerful - that can go horribly wrong or it's AoE is not big enough to kill all enemies. The chanter just has to stand there and let them come. Plus: He can always lob a few AoE spells on the enemies' heads while burning and slashing them. And then there's two of them - instead of casting those +5 buffs on the barb (which they will likely achieve with lvl 1 phrases) the party performance would be a lot better if they both would sinply chant The Dragon Thrashed. You wouldn't even notice if the barb left the party, frustrated...

It only works for ONE ally of the paladin, not for all. If you test it again with the paladin and one single other party member you will see that it works perfectly well. You can see that only in the combat log (look up the hit rolls), not on the character sheet.

It's +5 as far as I know. Those buffs are nice because they last so long. But if both chanters would stack-chant "The Dragon Thrashed" your barb would look like a wet noodle slapper in comparison, no matter how hard he hits.

Since in solo mode you will outlevel most foes: Eye of the Storm may also be good. I don't know if it prevents flanking altogether when you can't get engaged, but running around with Wild Sprint and suffering from no disengagement attacks is quite handy. You can get Ryona's Vambraces without fighting the Alpine Dragon. You just need 17 RES in order to unlock the dialogue options where you can help him with his soul issues. He will give you the Vambraces as reward. You can still kill him later. But maybe 17 RES is hard for you to achieve?

Ah great!

I hate it.

That's right. Although a weapon with prone or stun on crit does more for your endurance and health pool than draining (which dosen't profit from any healing bonuses by the way). Enemies who can't fight back because they are disabled usually don't hurt you.