Boeroer

True. By the way: with enough stealth and a reach weapon you can wait behind your buddies until the enemies make contact with your frontline. You will still be stealthed and can do a Backstab (+Sneak Attack). That way you remove the need to steer your "stealthy" rogue towards enemies and then (after Backstabbing) have to flee in panic because they all want to pierce your squishy guts. Also works with ranged weapons (as long as you don't fire too early but wait until enemies are <= 2m near). Also note that when using melee weapons + Backstab: it's the command of attack that counts, not the actual time when the attack hits (dirrerent from Deadfire!). As long as you were stealthed while commanding the attack (clicking on the enemy) your attack will be a Backstab - even if you unstealth accidentally on the way to your target. So you don't even need a stellar stealth skill to pull off Backstabs (with a melee weapon). With ranged weapons it's not the case because if you command the attack from far away your char will simply stop and shoot from afar - and get no backstab bonus. Best weapons for Backstabs are heavy hitters - like an arquebus (from 2m range or lower) for example or even a blunderbuss (if enemies' DR is not too high). But also Firebrand (see Forgemaster Gloves or Belt of the Royal Deadfire Cannoneer) and Tidefall are very good backstabbing weapons (only that FIrebrand has to be used from invisibility because summoning it breaks stealth so it's not a good alpha-striker from stealth but devastating from invisibility). In general two handed weapons are better than one handed ones. Sadly daggers and all other light weapons are not. The implementation of Backstab (which is an additive damage bonus calculated on the weapon's base damage) prevents this.

Not really an immunity afaik. He has a passive that clears fire effects on him periodically - I guess every 3 secs(?). Unfortunately it removes benefical effects, too. I mean it makes total sense so Im not complaining. I was just a bit bummed that I had to find out about that after trying to use Mith Fyr for quite a while and wondered why the f he wouldn't get any burning lash on his attacks althoug he was singing Mith Fyr all the time. Is suspect he also clears stuff like Flame Shield - but I didn't try.

@Rooksx: Yes, that is correct. But to be fair this wasn't widely known until someone tried it (kind of by accident) and posted it here not too long ago. Before that I guess most players just assumed that "immunity vs. disengagement attacks" just meant "immunity to engagement" or that it wouldn't be counted as a real miss.

Attack destructibles (barrels mostly) as @dgray62 suggested. You'll crit them all the time.

I have no idea. Chillfog does trigger CW, even Frostseeker does iirc (might be wrong here though) - but I have issues with Tekehu using the Mith Fyr chant (it gets cleared by his godlike passive which makes sense but is also annoying ). Maybe explicit water spells do quench/not work with CW, but I didn't do a comprehensive test. At first glance it seems that this "element x counters element y" stuff doesn't work at all (besides Tekehu). Maybe it was planned to be like inspiration vs. affliction, but it surely didn't get implemented thoroughly (if at all). And what would counter acid, what shock? Maybe they dropped it because it just wasn't worth the hassle. If others have more insight then please share! Would love to know what works and what wouldn't. Anyway - multiple Chillfogs, a Wall of Flames, Wicked Briars and such things combined with CW is often my 1-trick-pony approach in a lot of encounters in the mid game. Most classes have one or more of those pulsing or multiprojectile abilites and the others can use stuff like blunderbusses or Sun & Moon (with Swift Flurry even...) or so. Even against some late(ish) enemies that are vulnerable to fire - like Neriscyrlas - it's a great thing to use CW. And if you go with a Beckoner who uses his skeletons frequently and who's accompanied by a Priest with Spark the Souls then you might want to add a Wizard with CW, too. Druid with Avenging Storm + dual mortars: same. Missile Salvo: yep.

As an SC Wizard you can combine Combusting Wounds with pulsing spells like Chillfog, Freezing Pillar, beams and walls and so on - and minor missiles and blunderbusses, too. The damage output is very good as long as the enemy isn't resistant/immune to burn damage.

If you have some thematic wizard builds you want to translate it may be that you just need to multiclass. For example I did that Mountain Dwarf Bilestomper Wizard who made himself nearly invulnerable against poison and disease and most fortitude based attacks and then tanked enemies and showered himself with all those poison/disease spells like Noxius Burst, Maglignant Cloud and so on. You can do that in Deadfire with a Paladin/Wizard because the Paladin gets a passive that makes you immune to poison and disease. How fitting. The tanking and the casting of those spells on top of yourself works even better then. I also made a variant with fire and ice spells (with a Pale Elf obviously) and in Deadfire you can do the fire variant very nicely with Rekvu's Scorched Cloak while the ice variant is nice with the BoW-ice-outfit. Stuff like that. So recreating thematic builds isn't that hard. You can even end up with something more interesting. Very special "powergamey" builds that require certain unique items or other delicate synergies are of course harder to do - or even impossible. What I really don't like is that they put Caedebald's Blackbow into PL8 - it would have been so nice for multiclassing...

You also have to distinguish between early, mid and late game. Saying "XY is best" when only looking at the late game isn't really a wholesome assessment (I still thing Priest is best because there's so much impact for a party even at low levels - see Inspiring Radiance but also mid game stuff like Devotions, Prayers and so on). Per-rest casters in PoE feel a lot weaker in the early game - because they have so few spell uses per rest compared to the endgame (where they have an overbundance of spells). A lvl-1 per-rest caster can cast two spells (especially if you took pretty lame spells as a Wizard to begin with) and then it's auto-attacking with suboptimal stats. Of course that feels weak - hence the claims of "uselessness". Fighters and Rogues (and Monks as well) feel stronger in the early game of PoE because they start with higher stats (for example compare the starting ACC of Fighter: 30 with the starting ACC of a Priest or Wizard: 20) and are somewaht "frontloaded" with nice abilities like Sneak Attack, Constant Recovery and such. Hence so many new players sworde that Rogue is the strongest class at first. Same reason why so many players thought that Barbarians were bad: they just didn't play them long enough. Barbs started with low ACC and deflection - of course they felt weak in the early game. Especially because Carnage couldn't hit anything with the low starting ACC and the -10 malus on top. And the 36% damage malus felt really bad in the absence of other dmg bonuses. It's written nowhere in the game that Carnage gets +1 ACC per char level. You had to find out yourself which was only possible if you didn't give up on the Barb (or read the forums ;)). In the end you could have a really great Barbarian - but you wouldn't have guessed from the first impressions.

People also said that "wizards are useless" in PoE. Usually people have the strongest opinions when they have no clue...

In PoE, with several priest in the party: always make sure all of them take Inspiring Radiance - because it stacks. 6 Priests = +60 ACC from Inspired Radiance. :headbang:

Fortunately it doesn't matter where the lightning damage comes from as long as it's the wielder of the Voulge who causes it. You could for example wear Heaven's Cacophony and use its Avenging Storm to cause the shock damage or as you said a scroll of some shock dmg spell. That way it's very easy to level it up (the other steps are also easily done). SC Barb is good with this like the others said. Not related to Serafen or Tekehu but it's a very fun weapon for a Berserker/Monk actually - mainly because of +INT from Duality (enlargens Carnage Area) and Swift Flurry (+Heartbeat Drumming) in combintion with Frenzy+Bloodlust + Blood Thirst. Sometimes Swift FLurry/HBD trigger one another and you'll get a ton of AoE damage because Carnage can't crit and still applies Static Thunder while the main attacks' chain-crits trigger it right away. @AeonsLegend did post some screenshots that do show the effect quite impressively. It's also fun for a Barbarian/Druid. You can bind it to the Druid class for +3PL to storms but still get the Static Thunder for Carnage (without the Distraction part that Barbs would get but still nice combo). Relentless Storms with Deltro's Cage + Voulge get +5 PL and are devastating - and when they kill your Bloodlust and Blood Thirst trigger... Fighter is also nice due to Clear Out (and upgrades). For SC Druids like Tekehu it's more like a stat stick. But all storm spells (that's not only shock spells) and Greater Maelstrom get +3 PL from it which is pretty awesome. I don't use it as melee weapon that much then (bcause busy with casting) but it's still good for that because dual damage with shock which is handy for many encounters (against constructs etc.).

That was merely a reply to your presumptuous sentence "Surely no one in their right mind , who has enough knowledge of both games, can say[...]" as you well know. As if only insane people or beginners wouldn't agree with you. Trying to twist this into an pretentious statemenet of mine is quite dishonest.

I absolutely agree. That was also the biggest disadvantage (besides the immense costs) that Josh Sawyer brought up.

The only thing you did was posting some videos in which PoE Wizards fought dragons with a multitude of spells while claiming that you can kill them reliably with three casts of Freezing Rake alone. Which - even if it would be the case - does neither support nor prove your initial statement that Deadfire casters are garbage and that you should avoid playing them. It doesn't even touch it. It wouldn't even matter if you could kill a dragon with one cast of Freezing Rake - it's just a deflection. Your approach to a question like "How do I translate wizard builds from PoE to Deadfire?" was basically "Casters in Deadfire are garbage so pick a martial class". And there lies my problem. I would say that I have extensive knowledge and that I'm mentally healthy - and yet I insist that Deadfire's casters are not garbage - which was your initial claim. If you would have said "They are not as powerful as in PoE" we wouldn't have this discussion at all. But you didn't say that. Instead you claimed that they are garbage and that it's best to pick something else. I laid out the reasons why I think that that's not correct and why I think they are good, fun to play and why they had to change for Deadfire - all in previous posts.

Uh? Never had that. Weird.

Of course Full VO can be nice, I like the VO of Deadfire, too. Question is if the outcome justifies the investment when talking about financial success of Deadfire. Or why it did sell badly. Missing VO can't be the reason for low sales. But Full VO might be a reason why it didn't break even sooner.

My problem is your approach to this discussion if that wasn't obvious. Anyway, I think I made my points. Future readers may decide who made reasonable arguments and if "trash", "garbage" and such were the right terms to describe the caster classes and their abilites in Deadfire. In comparison to PoE or whatever you want to compare it to.

In which universe of mercurial madness?

Aha...

Yes, I'm a big fan of mortars - in this case however I mean Watershaper's Focus specifially - because it jumps one time on its own and two times with Driving Flight. Which lets Arcane Archer's imbue spells trigger thrice. If you use Imbue:Web and Imbue:Eora from stealth the recovery malus doesn't matter much (-85% recoery from stealth) and you'll create a CC field of no escape for all enemies in range. Basically you cast 3 Pull of Eoras + 3 Binding Webs on the spot with two shots in a few secs. There are not many mobs that can withstand that. And on top of that there's a big chance to proc Ondra's Wrath (which will profit from Rogue's Sneak Attack and Deathblows - if you used Rogue in the first place). Or fire away with Stunning Surge which has a nearly 100% chance to crit because of the three AoE attacks. You are not fast after the first two shots but enemies can't move anyway... Fire in the Hole can also do that and a lot faster - but the very short range is a real bummer - I mean in this case. In other cases it's one of my favorites.

We will not. The game is designed around party play, not solo. Also the OP uses a party. So if anything we should keep the discussion on party play - not on what you find particularly enjoyable. You can voice your opinion no problem. But this is not your thread and solo PotD wasn't the focus when you said that casters are "garbage".

You are moving the goal posts: You said that casters are disappointing and thrash in Deadfire. I reasoned that they are not and that the changes which were done are resonable ones - because the whole game mechanics got reinvented (see "self buffs are worse now" vs. "item effects do stack now/starting values are higher now/multiclassing" and so on ). I didn't say that Deadfire's casters are more powerful or even equally powerful than in PoE, just that weaker spell effects per se don't mean that casters are suddenly bad or no fun to play. I don't think they are worse when it comes to the only metric that one should care about: fun to play. In PoE casters turned out to be the most powerful classes at high levels - because you could simply rest after each fight and spam those very impactful spells 4 times per rest per spell tier - and on top of that you'd have 4 tiers of spell mastery. That is cheesy as well - as cheesy as using Brilliant + SoT or Wall of Draining with Belt of Magran's Chosen or whatnot. Just because you like one cheese better than the other doesn't mean that this has to be the same for every player. With the change from per-rest to per-encounter and the introduction of multiclassing something had to change so that casters don't completely break the class balance. You couldn't just let Freezing Rake do the same amount of damage if you can cast if up to 3 times per encounter compared to 4 times per rest (if you didn't abuse resting). You couldn't let Priests keep their prayers when there's a whole new system of afflicitions and inspirations as counters. Especially when it was clear that Priests were the most impactful class in PoE in the first place even without them. The result of those changes is a portfolio of well-balanced classes: casters are viable and fun to play in Deadfire - even if some or even most of their spells got weakened (others got buffed by the way - look at Slicken). If you don't agree: fine. But I won't let you say such things without pointing out where you exaggerate, being ultra-subjective or are simply wrong. Such blatant and unjustified criticism might discourage players from even trying a caster. And what is won then? Just because you are disappointed (because Freezing Rake does less damage now or because Citzal's Spirit Lance has less base damage) doesn't mean everybody else has to be. I don't even like the casters of Deadfire more than PoE's. I actually perfer per-rest casting more than per-encounter. I just try to look at it objectively.

It doesn't matter to you you mean.

A Wizard (especially multiclassed) can still make use of a rod + blast - but it's not tied to the wizard class now, any class can use Blast because it became a weapon modal. My go-to "Zeblastian" equivalent is an Arcane Archer/Helwalker or an Arcane Archer/Trickster with Watershaper's Focus nowadays. Kalakoth's Minor Blights + Blast doesn't work anymore since only rads can have blasts in deadfire and KMB is no rod. Bloodmages can regain spell uses by sacrificing health. They can also cast Wall of Draining (like most other wizards) which prolongs any benefical effect on them (as long as you hit enemies with it), including healing over time. Thus the Bloodmage can get spells back without any risk - including the use of Wall of Draining. It becomes a circle: Wall of Draining lets the healing never end, the healing allows to sacrifice health for new spells - one of them Wall of Draining - and so on. It's not necessary in a party composition most of times - but it's invaluable when going solo. Against single foes it doesn't work well though because you can't drain enough duration from a single foe.

Sure - and more. No, mainly because there are neither adra nor bog dragons in Deadfire and also no spells named kalakoths ice rake. I also doubt that any dragon in PoE could get reliably killed by 3 casts of Kalakoth's Freezing Rake but only if you get lucky with the rolls - but anyways. Wizards in Deadfire can kill dragons with stuff like Missile Salvo or Combusting Wounds + Wall of Flames and whatnot. I killed Neriscyrlas solo with Concelhaut's Draining Touch... I don't use any potions at all and I still manage. And then: as if solo wizards in PoE wouldn't use potions and all the advantages like figurines and all other stuff they could get to win against a dragon. Taking Wall of Draining out of the equation when comparing wizards of PoE and Deafire is arbitrari. I could also say "But PoE's wizard is lame if you don't use Freezing Rake". Yeah - but why wouldn't I use that if it's good? Wall of Draining can make wizards in Deadfire extremely powerful in solo mode - more powerful than any PoE wizard could have been. So why skip it and then lament that they are not powerful enough? 🤷‍♂️ He can face tank most things just by casting Arcane Veil, Wall of Draining and Llengrath's Safeguard. Different spells but it's possible to "facetank" lots of stuff (besides the fact that a PoE wizard couldn't just facetank all encounters with Infuse with Vital Essence and Llengrath's Displaced Image alone - try that against some of the late bounties...) - and that doesn't even take multiclassing of Deadfire into account - where you can perfectly synergize wizard spells with other classes' abilites. See Arcane Knight who can tank anything with the right setup. So a Wizard who wants to be supertanky multiclasses with a tanky class. A Wizard who wants to deal absurd damage with Spirit Lance multiclasses with Monk, Barbarian or Rogue. Nice options. Why is that disappointing or make the wizard class trash? Sure - you just become Brilliant (either via Shroud of the Phantasm or the Least Unstable Coil or some Weyc's gear) and then use Wall of Draining. You don't need to be a Bloodmage for that. But even then: if you wanted to play solo - why would you not pick a wizard subclass that is best for this? Sorting out the most powerful option and then complaining that the remaining options are a disappointment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sure, I could say that if I wanted. But neither did I say that nor do I intend to. Of course they are different - as I already stated above. But that doesn't mean they are trash or a disappointment. Your argements are made from a very subjective point of view and you don't seem to be willing to take counterarguments into consideration. Given the changes of the mechanics casters are nowhere disappointing nor trash in Deadfire - especially not with multiclassing and also not with PL scaling and high tier spells. Judging a class by its solo performance doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a party based game either. Would that be a good measurement then Priest of Skaen would be the top class overall - because nearly every verified Ultimate run used it. But it is supergood in a party? Nay. All casters are viable in Deadfire and can be great fun in a normal paythrough. No exception. Some got tuned down a bit because they would have been too good in their PoE state. See Priests. That doesn't mean they are "trash" all of a sudden. Remember that they can either get some great high tier spells or synergize with multiclassing. For solo runs you can use Wall of Draining (it's not that useful with a party) or Bloodmage (has way less impact in party environments) or do some Barring Death's Door + Salvation of Time shenanigans with a Priest. So the options are there - there are even more than in PoE.