Boeroer

That was merely a reply to your presumptuous sentence "Surely no one in their right mind , who has enough knowledge of both games, can say[...]" as you well know. As if only insane people or beginners wouldn't agree with you. Trying to twist this into an pretentious statemenet of mine is quite dishonest.

I absolutely agree. That was also the biggest disadvantage (besides the immense costs) that Josh Sawyer brought up.

The only thing you did was posting some videos in which PoE Wizards fought dragons with a multitude of spells while claiming that you can kill them reliably with three casts of Freezing Rake alone. Which - even if it would be the case - does neither support nor prove your initial statement that Deadfire casters are garbage and that you should avoid playing them. It doesn't even touch it. It wouldn't even matter if you could kill a dragon with one cast of Freezing Rake - it's just a deflection. Your approach to a question like "How do I translate wizard builds from PoE to Deadfire?" was basically "Casters in Deadfire are garbage so pick a martial class". And there lies my problem. I would say that I have extensive knowledge and that I'm mentally healthy - and yet I insist that Deadfire's casters are not garbage - which was your initial claim. If you would have said "They are not as powerful as in PoE" we wouldn't have this discussion at all. But you didn't say that. Instead you claimed that they are garbage and that it's best to pick something else. I laid out the reasons why I think that that's not correct and why I think they are good, fun to play and why they had to change for Deadfire - all in previous posts.

Uh? Never had that. Weird.

Of course Full VO can be nice, I like the VO of Deadfire, too. Question is if the outcome justifies the investment when talking about financial success of Deadfire. Or why it did sell badly. Missing VO can't be the reason for low sales. But Full VO might be a reason why it didn't break even sooner.

My problem is your approach to this discussion if that wasn't obvious. Anyway, I think I made my points. Future readers may decide who made reasonable arguments and if "trash", "garbage" and such were the right terms to describe the caster classes and their abilites in Deadfire. In comparison to PoE or whatever you want to compare it to.

In which universe of mercurial madness?

Aha...

Yes, I'm a big fan of mortars - in this case however I mean Watershaper's Focus specifially - because it jumps one time on its own and two times with Driving Flight. Which lets Arcane Archer's imbue spells trigger thrice. If you use Imbue:Web and Imbue:Eora from stealth the recovery malus doesn't matter much (-85% recoery from stealth) and you'll create a CC field of no escape for all enemies in range. Basically you cast 3 Pull of Eoras + 3 Binding Webs on the spot with two shots in a few secs. There are not many mobs that can withstand that. And on top of that there's a big chance to proc Ondra's Wrath (which will profit from Rogue's Sneak Attack and Deathblows - if you used Rogue in the first place). Or fire away with Stunning Surge which has a nearly 100% chance to crit because of the three AoE attacks. You are not fast after the first two shots but enemies can't move anyway... Fire in the Hole can also do that and a lot faster - but the very short range is a real bummer - I mean in this case. In other cases it's one of my favorites.

We will not. The game is designed around party play, not solo. Also the OP uses a party. So if anything we should keep the discussion on party play - not on what you find particularly enjoyable. You can voice your opinion no problem. But this is not your thread and solo PotD wasn't the focus when you said that casters are "garbage".

You are moving the goal posts: You said that casters are disappointing and thrash in Deadfire. I reasoned that they are not and that the changes which were done are resonable ones - because the whole game mechanics got reinvented (see "self buffs are worse now" vs. "item effects do stack now/starting values are higher now/multiclassing" and so on ). I didn't say that Deadfire's casters are more powerful or even equally powerful than in PoE, just that weaker spell effects per se don't mean that casters are suddenly bad or no fun to play. I don't think they are worse when it comes to the only metric that one should care about: fun to play. In PoE casters turned out to be the most powerful classes at high levels - because you could simply rest after each fight and spam those very impactful spells 4 times per rest per spell tier - and on top of that you'd have 4 tiers of spell mastery. That is cheesy as well - as cheesy as using Brilliant + SoT or Wall of Draining with Belt of Magran's Chosen or whatnot. Just because you like one cheese better than the other doesn't mean that this has to be the same for every player. With the change from per-rest to per-encounter and the introduction of multiclassing something had to change so that casters don't completely break the class balance. You couldn't just let Freezing Rake do the same amount of damage if you can cast if up to 3 times per encounter compared to 4 times per rest (if you didn't abuse resting). You couldn't let Priests keep their prayers when there's a whole new system of afflicitions and inspirations as counters. Especially when it was clear that Priests were the most impactful class in PoE in the first place even without them. The result of those changes is a portfolio of well-balanced classes: casters are viable and fun to play in Deadfire - even if some or even most of their spells got weakened (others got buffed by the way - look at Slicken). If you don't agree: fine. But I won't let you say such things without pointing out where you exaggerate, being ultra-subjective or are simply wrong. Such blatant and unjustified criticism might discourage players from even trying a caster. And what is won then? Just because you are disappointed (because Freezing Rake does less damage now or because Citzal's Spirit Lance has less base damage) doesn't mean everybody else has to be. I don't even like the casters of Deadfire more than PoE's. I actually perfer per-rest casting more than per-encounter. I just try to look at it objectively.

It doesn't matter to you you mean.

A Wizard (especially multiclassed) can still make use of a rod + blast - but it's not tied to the wizard class now, any class can use Blast because it became a weapon modal. My go-to "Zeblastian" equivalent is an Arcane Archer/Helwalker or an Arcane Archer/Trickster with Watershaper's Focus nowadays. Kalakoth's Minor Blights + Blast doesn't work anymore since only rads can have blasts in deadfire and KMB is no rod. Bloodmages can regain spell uses by sacrificing health. They can also cast Wall of Draining (like most other wizards) which prolongs any benefical effect on them (as long as you hit enemies with it), including healing over time. Thus the Bloodmage can get spells back without any risk - including the use of Wall of Draining. It becomes a circle: Wall of Draining lets the healing never end, the healing allows to sacrifice health for new spells - one of them Wall of Draining - and so on. It's not necessary in a party composition most of times - but it's invaluable when going solo. Against single foes it doesn't work well though because you can't drain enough duration from a single foe.

Sure - and more. No, mainly because there are neither adra nor bog dragons in Deadfire and also no spells named kalakoths ice rake. I also doubt that any dragon in PoE could get reliably killed by 3 casts of Kalakoth's Freezing Rake but only if you get lucky with the rolls - but anyways. Wizards in Deadfire can kill dragons with stuff like Missile Salvo or Combusting Wounds + Wall of Flames and whatnot. I killed Neriscyrlas solo with Concelhaut's Draining Touch... I don't use any potions at all and I still manage. And then: as if solo wizards in PoE wouldn't use potions and all the advantages like figurines and all other stuff they could get to win against a dragon. Taking Wall of Draining out of the equation when comparing wizards of PoE and Deafire is arbitrari. I could also say "But PoE's wizard is lame if you don't use Freezing Rake". Yeah - but why wouldn't I use that if it's good? Wall of Draining can make wizards in Deadfire extremely powerful in solo mode - more powerful than any PoE wizard could have been. So why skip it and then lament that they are not powerful enough? 🤷‍♂️ He can face tank most things just by casting Arcane Veil, Wall of Draining and Llengrath's Safeguard. Different spells but it's possible to "facetank" lots of stuff (besides the fact that a PoE wizard couldn't just facetank all encounters with Infuse with Vital Essence and Llengrath's Displaced Image alone - try that against some of the late bounties...) - and that doesn't even take multiclassing of Deadfire into account - where you can perfectly synergize wizard spells with other classes' abilites. See Arcane Knight who can tank anything with the right setup. So a Wizard who wants to be supertanky multiclasses with a tanky class. A Wizard who wants to deal absurd damage with Spirit Lance multiclasses with Monk, Barbarian or Rogue. Nice options. Why is that disappointing or make the wizard class trash? Sure - you just become Brilliant (either via Shroud of the Phantasm or the Least Unstable Coil or some Weyc's gear) and then use Wall of Draining. You don't need to be a Bloodmage for that. But even then: if you wanted to play solo - why would you not pick a wizard subclass that is best for this? Sorting out the most powerful option and then complaining that the remaining options are a disappointment doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sure, I could say that if I wanted. But neither did I say that nor do I intend to. Of course they are different - as I already stated above. But that doesn't mean they are trash or a disappointment. Your argements are made from a very subjective point of view and you don't seem to be willing to take counterarguments into consideration. Given the changes of the mechanics casters are nowhere disappointing nor trash in Deadfire - especially not with multiclassing and also not with PL scaling and high tier spells. Judging a class by its solo performance doesn't make a whole lot of sense in a party based game either. Would that be a good measurement then Priest of Skaen would be the top class overall - because nearly every verified Ultimate run used it. But it is supergood in a party? Nay. All casters are viable in Deadfire and can be great fun in a normal paythrough. No exception. Some got tuned down a bit because they would have been too good in their PoE state. See Priests. That doesn't mean they are "trash" all of a sudden. Remember that they can either get some great high tier spells or synergize with multiclassing. For solo runs you can use Wall of Draining (it's not that useful with a party) or Bloodmage (has way less impact in party environments) or do some Barring Death's Door + Salvation of Time shenanigans with a Priest. So the options are there - there are even more than in PoE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik the first party-based CRPG with Full VO was D:OS2 - which had it as a stretch goal. According to Larian themselves they were not even sure if that's even feasible (given the amount of text the game was supposed to have) but they offered it anyway - and it was reached. And after that this nonsense with "D:OS2 had it - so we must have it as well" happened.

It doesn't really matter if the potential player likes it better with Full VO or not. What matters is: does Full VO lead to more sales which compensate for the higher developement cost? I don't think so (at all) - but if somebody has some metrics on that I will reconsider. I just don't think that there are many players of isometric RPGs out there who would give a CRPG a pass just because it has no Full VO.

Very good point! Didn't think about that. She never did summon Spirit Lance against me - I guess because I make heavy use of interrupts and also stand widely spread in that fight because of the constructs' flame attacks. Usually she stands at that railing at the top of those stairs on the east side of the Temple of Berath. Their constructs rel. nearby. I never encoutered her anywhere else. I then initiate combat by dialogue and retreat down the stairs. They all then follow downstairs. When I try to fight her at her "spawning point" then usually some stupid townsperson who doesn't cower down in terror but just dandily wanders about gets butchered.

I also cannot see how Full VO makes a game more accessible. Maybe for people who can't read, but those will have a hard time using something like a PC anyways. To the contrary I think that Full VO is a hinderance as soon as it comes to players who don't speak/understand English. Hearing Full VO in English while trying to read the stuff in Korean or something might be a jarring experience. It can be nice to hear all those different voices (when done properly), no doubt. But it's superexpensive (even if you use the same voice actors over and over again for different roles like in Deadfire) and adds a lot of stress to the development process. And I'm still not convinced that it adds to a RPG substancially. If somebody could present a survey or something else which shows that the buyer decision process of RPG players is influenced by Full VO then I would reconsider. Until then I'll insist that it's doing more harm than good.

I'm sure there's some research that can back up that claim. Just not in this universe...

Not a lot bought the game anyways. If Full VO would draw a lot of customers then we wouldn't have those sales numbers. I think it's a big stretch to say that Full VO sells a lot more copies. It's just convenient for some but not mandatory for many - would be my take. Not many would refuse to buy a game just because it has not Full VO I believe.

If she doesn't drop it and you used Essence Interrupter then I would wonder if its loot eating big is still active. For me (never use Essence Interrupter) it always drops. I fight Katrenn downstairs by the temple (between the pillars there) - usually no bypassers go there.

Keep in mind that Deadfire is also out on consoles - so Steam etc. may not play a role there. Selling 600k copies on several platforms is still not a lot. But great if it starts to make profits now. Without Full VO this point could have been reached a lot sooner...

Absolutely. The high level spells (PL8 and 9) are awesome.

Of course. The Power Level 8 and 9 spells are exceptionally good. That is not correct. Adressing your points and using the Wizard as example: Damage: spells are now 2 (or 3 with Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry --> 4 with empower or even unlimited with a Bloodmage) per encounter instead of 4 per rest. Not tuning the damage down would be completely unbalanced. Accuracy: all classes start with the same base accuracy of in Deadfire and the enemies' defenses are balanced towards that - in PoE Wizards started with abysmal base accuracy compared to martial classes: 20 Wizard, 30 Fighter for example - and thus the spells had to have bonus ACC to make up for that. defensive spells are garbage: again they are castable per encounter instead of per rest. Also Wizards start with 20 deflection in Deadfire instead of 10 in PoE - thus the deflection buffs don't need to be as high. You end up with the same (or even more) deflection in the end. The other thing is that all defensive buffs from items will stack while in PoE they didn't. Since defensive buffs have increasing returns it would be too unbalanced to allow the stacking of defensive items + sky high wizard self buffs + higher base deflection. Then you get the new spell tiers which weren't there in PoE which contain some very potent spells like Missile Salvo and such. You also get Power Level scaling which makes sure that low level spells stay powerful throughout the game - something PoE didn't have. At higher levels a PoE Wizard wouldn't bother to cast a puny Fan of Flames anymore because its damage wouldn't scale at all. In Deadfire you get +5% multiplicative damage per Power Level, more penetration and more accuracy for the lower level spells - which is a HUGE advantage over PoE's casters. And I haven't even touched the Empower system that sykrockets spells on a per-rest basis for the really tough fights - you can even improve than with talents. Also casters now have spell shaping and other casting related passives like faster cast etc. which were not there in PoE. Following that reasoning: caster classes aren't a disappointment at all in Deadfire. They just work a bit differently to make them fit the more systemic per-encounter system. Some players might like the old per-rest system better or even the whole PoE game, but that doesn't mean casters are objectively worse in Deadfire.

Exactly