Elric Galad

@Ivanfyodorovich the file below about the White Wurms UPGRADE ONLY : - Change to auto-hit the corpse trigger - remove the disease KW from the d amage attack and only leave it on the status cl.chanter.white_wurms.gamedatabundle

Ah, yes, you mean letting the KW only on the upgrade. Yup, this is possible.

The issue is that putting a KW somewhere in the ability gamedata usually make the whole effect tagged, unless I'm mistaken. I can't name a single ability which is partially resisted by Poison Immune. Probably what you say is what the dev intended, but somehow, the code can't handle it. Maybe I'll send you a file to test for confirming this. This could change many things in this discussion.

That's another option to make the spell more focused. 0,5s/4s cast time 24 - 27 raw 48 - 54 corrode White Wurms : Auto-hit the corpse I'm still annoyed that invisble Disease KW does not make sense with Crush damages and Sickened vs Will (seems to be s stench rather than a disease)...

Fast casting would be great because finishing a near death target requires reactivity. 0,5s/4,5s for example (slightly longer recovery) Initial damages can be doubled. 48-54 raw starts looking decent. Still inferior to other Chanter offensive if you don't get any additional explosion (except vs high AR). Secondary corrode damages can be left alone. This would prevent the spell to have a too high ceiling value. Phrase cost is based on Tier for other spells. Better not changing hidden rules.

That's why I'm comparing it with Death Ring. Death Ring is Tier VI. Boil the flesh is Tier VII Chanter (which should be around Tier IX.) Remember what Eld Nary does for 1 more Tier and 1 less phrase. Boil the flesh require 2 kills to really start doing more damages. I think the damages could almost be doubled without making the spell OP. Casting time could also be lowered (this might be a wiser way). I think that the upgrade is good enough, though.

But it has fangs, you know If it counts as ranged, better not messing with a melee proficiency. Or maybe Long Pain already counts as unarmed ?

And Cobra weapon summons (to align with Firebrand Fire KW) And Wall of Thorns Invocations are usually stronger than equivalent Tier spells. This is normal for me. A couple Tier higher I would say. If if want to compare a Tier II Invocation, I would rather look at Tier IV spells. And this one is also conditional. But you're right to point that the damages and AoE are good, and the upgrade is meh. No one really care about this Sickening effect. I simply don't too much changing the effect. Also, I still trouble with this disease-based crush damages Edit : I also said that Thrice she was wronged does more damages per target with the upgrade if you count the bounce. What is easier ? Getting targets within Thrice AoE or getting a corpse AND targets in its location. I didn't say the spell is bad, it just seemed less good. Anyway, I will a bit about this. By the way, do you think that Boil their Flesh need a buff ? (I have already replaced the secondary cones which didn't work properly by a 2,5 AoE) by the damages feel a bit low. You need several kills to get a better effect than Death Ring, and it costs 6 phrases ! (the fact I didn't pick it with my SC Skald worries me)

Added the fitting modals for me.

It's PL 2 (same phrase cost though). AoE is a good argument indeed. Oooh I think I didn't get what was happening with this spell when the corpse I thought I targetted didn't work. Attacks are separate items in the data so it should not be too complicated to distinguish the two. I still think the spell is not rewarding enough for how situational it is. Simple changes I think could make it good enough : - Auto-hit on the corpse (this one is mandatory I think) - Corrode alternate damages and Acid KW (This one is because Disease KW on Crush damages make no sense) - Align cast time with Thrice she was Wronged - Add Interrupt on Hit, 'cause Boom. Coupled with the previous one, I think it will ensure an utility to the spell.

Woedica : Concelhaut Crushing Doom was my idea but more on level VIII. Haunting Chain (BPM version) is a bit too much since it is meant to be the ultimate CC by the ultimate single target CC class and Woedicans would get it even sooner. You could go (renamed) Bitter Mooring on Tier VI (Woedica likes immobilizing stuff) and Crushing Doom on Tier VIII. Abydon : Unbending is the key ultimate Fighter ability. I don't think it's wise to give it to another class. You should go Sundering blow instead (even if Tier IX, it's only 2 discipline, so it makes sense on Tier VIII as a bit better Rust). I don't think it's good for 2 gods to have the same spell on different level, so maybe not Crushing Doom. Maybe Power Strike ? (faster mode) Galawain : Wild Sprint on Tier IV is too bad. Hunter's Claw is too weird mechanic to be used as a spell. Blackbow shall not be put on Tier VII ! It would be abusable by Multiclass. Panther's Leap Tier IX is a bit too high. Furious Vengeance : Invocation worth more than usual level. Swap with Panther's Leap. Still a bit generous but okay. I like Marked Prey has an unique trait. Maybe Tier IV Hylea : Avenging Storm shall not be put on Tier VII ! It would be abusable by Multiclass. Ondra : Nothing bad, but Moonwell, Relentless Storm and Avenging Storm should not be that high Tier. Maybe remove the Fragment spell and move down everything 1 less tier. No idea for Tier VII and IX for the moment. Missile Salvo ? Incarnate : Don't forget that all Incarnate joins Teams, not Party. Duration shall depend on their number (or they would be too powerful). Woedica : No idea but Skaen would feel weird. No Incarnate is an option, but you need other abilities then... Galawain : Compared to Druid Version, this one would be less good (join Team, not party, PL penalty). Suggestion : you could have this one give +1PL instead of a malus. That would be unique but consitent with Galawain fluff. Hylea : Check if this one is technically doable. And don't forget to balance it. You can go for a couple of non-upgraded Drakes if it doesn't work. (adult Dragon can be suspiciously OP) Ondra : same as Hylea. The other mod has a spell that summons ice clone. 3 of them for 20s would be a good enough incarnate. Weapons : Galawain : go for a pike. It will save you the trouble of dealing with the 1-handed thingy.

My main pb with it is that Thrice she was Wronged is so much more convenient to use as a 3 phrases Invocation. It's unconditionnal, it does comparable damages (with the upgrade of course), has a near-instant cast (making it almost uninteruptible, great utility when compared with higher level offensive invocation). On the other side White Wurms upgrade has a (rather long) sickening effect... like half of the abilities of the game Why would I bother spending ability points on Wurms ? You cannot even control which corpse will explode. The "roll-vs-corpse" thing is interesting. I might start from setting it to auto-hit. Possibly adding Corrode type alternate damage and Acid KW to support Acid Chanter (who currently only has Boil their Flesh). Then what ? Buffing damages ?

OK, no change to Disease KW then. I will simply update the description of White Worms. White Worms need a buff, I think, so I seize the opportunity to change the description on the way.

Nice ! Some testing that I won't have to do myself 1) Disease vs Poison : If I remember well, disease and poison do have the same keyword in the gamedata files (KW does not appear in the "ability object", that's why it does not show on the description, but in the attack and status). If this the case, I think adding Poison tag to the ability as well would make the whole stuff more consistent. They are close enough concept and ennemies are immune to both anyway. Poison tag would help identifying the ability that could be resisted. If they are different KW, I might put the disease KW to the ability and sees what happens 2) I just realized that Pernicious Cloud and Toxic Strike do not have Acid KW in spit of doing Corrode damages. I should add it to them. (Toxic Strike would be Acid, Poison then, as Noxious Burst). 3) Cobra should get the Poison KW. I added Acid KW to Blackbow to align it with Firebrand which was tagged fire. No reason not to add it. 4) About removing Poison tag : the only cases where I think it would be a matter of debate are White Worms and Rot Skulls. - White Worms because it is not even hinted in the description and it causes Crush damages. I suspect the Poison could be only on the sickened component (which still prevents the whole attack from working against poison immune). The Sicken effect is vs Will, which doesn't sound too much Poison/Disease to me. Are you sure the unupgraded version has also the Poison KW ? The spell is a bit meh compared to Thrice she was wronged anyway and might use a little buff. - Rot Skull because 2 Poison-based spell on the same Tier is a bit too much (and Venombloom is too much Venom to be changed...) Hey, so Perishing Strike might be more reliable, nay ? Good point for it (Boeroer should be triggered by this one)

Did you really believe that something that obvious would still have been unadressed in BPM 1.3.1 ?

Ogre's armor has already been changed for a while as part of the BPM wizard's changes, though. EDIT : Ninjaed

Yup, but that's because it saved Obsidian from having to implement the subclass I guess

Adding "Unarmed" type to a summoned weapon and even compatibility with Haymaker without getting the Monkish scaling is most likely doable since it is what Woedica's fists do. Adding or not adding modal for all summoned weapon is a choice. Haymakerish modals aren't good enough to cause problems IMHO. It could help consistency of ruleset to have modals for all weapons. It makes comparisons easier. Buffing a bit Spiritshift weapons wouldn't be bad. There might even be a chance that it causes Fury Weapon to work with Driving Flight Preliminary list of weapons : - Cobras - Minor Blight - Rot Skulls - All spiritshift weapons, including fury ones - Transmuter Ogre fists EDIT : also Reaping Knives

It just confirms our previous post where exactly 5 druid abilities were identified as poison/disease based. And what about other classes ? 1st step : identifying the candidates (anything with raw/corrode damages might be suspected) : Rogue : Toxic Strike but not Withering/Perishing ? Pernicious Cloud ? Wiz : Noxious Burst Malignent Cloud Cobra weapon Wilting Wind ?? Chanter : Dank Spore summon abilities Boil their flesh ??

Rymrgand had a good grip on the whole 2020 to be honnest. Gotcha. Take this, Ondra !

Well, that would be a design change. Spiritshifted Weapons should also be covered. Ogre Form too. Might cause powercreeping. Only good reason to do that for me would be Fighter's class interaction with Proficiencies. Fist proficiency might have very weird interaction with Monk/unarmed Monastic Training. I should check how Woedica's fists work. What do the others think about this ?

OK, but if my memory serves well, Wall of Thorns is somehow ineffective vs poison immune even if the Antidote KW does not appear ! Rotting skulls is similar I think. Description mentions disease, no antidote KW, but resisted by poison immune. I remember a comprehensive post about this with nice green color fonts, maybe from @Boeroer (pretty sure he was involved), maybe in the course of Community Patch design. But I can't find it. I wouldn't mind removing Poison / Antidote from a couple of abilities by the way, especially for druids.

Now an additional suggestion : If you want a mod to shine, it requires having a bit more content, especially when it comes to Priest subclasses which have been already modded a lot (but with an usual power-creeping tendancy). What is described in this thread are the most "reasonable" changes I've seen so far. The purpose is clear but may fall under the radar. My idea for (balanced) new content would be to add the 4 missing God subclasses : Galawain, Abydon, Hylea and Ondra. For consistency, it should also make Rymrgand playable. I'm not advocating for new subclasses in general, but for priest it would make so much sense ! (And to be honnest, a similar package would be great for Godlikes too, but that requires graphical models so it might be more complicated)

That's a good point. If you have a list, I would consider implementing it... one day.

Warning from the Stacking Rule Police ! Do not spread confusion between Active/Passive (which is based on source) and Duration/Infinite effects. Most Passive have infinite duration, but not all of them (wall of flashing steel, DIstracting training). Some Active abilities (food count as Active) have infinite duration. But they still don't stack. Arcane Dampener remove effect with a duration. Not active effects. That said, your examples are (of course correct).