Walsingham

Hades I meant 1906 was more dangerous, not less! Meta, I think what I'm getting at (and I have no idea how it would work in practice) is the general natural law approach we use as people that says 'kids get scrapes when they play rough'. And accept that by and large these injuries cause no lasting harm. I mean, for Heaven's sake, my brother, who grew up in Zululand, used to play games with deadly treesnakes along with the other boys! I also think the other points being made about the consequences of being moribund and inactive are very pertinent. If we prevent them from playing rough we may be swaping a small chance of death for an entire life of ill-health for all. Finally I'd like to say that if we DO start legislating then I intend to sue my old school for letting teh girls play kiss-chase and give us cooties.

I don't think so. Isn't it kind of a goodbye thread?

I don't like IBC. But that's not their job. I think the fact that we all mistrust them, but not very much, should be cause for confidence. Can I respectfully shove this discussion down the road of debating our responsibility for deaths by insurgents and insurgent action. I don't think it's really sensible, but am curious what people think.

So who will you be now?

OK. I guess I went a bit far there. You could wear it for fashion reasons or because you were shy. But as Meta says that's up to Society to help with. I think the answer is actually stormtrooper outfits. That would permit covering up AND protect against tiny bears. Oh wait... Maybe I'm being too damn serious all round. I think in general I am just railing aginst the notion that everyone can do as they please, if they claim its a religious thing. And yes, Hades, I think the nude shrieking would be fun once a week. How about next Thursday in Trafalgar square? We'll go in opposite directions.

*Holds up and juxtaposes London 2006 against London 1906*

Well, I don't know if its sickening. I just think its going to result in a massive shock for our kids when the wheel spins and our world stop being so freakishly safe as it has been these last sixty years.

We got taught murder ball by an ex para! I recall one lesson where he challenged the whole class to get him while he was armed with a hockey stick.

Maybe they're bobbing their heads to the sound of a different drummer?* *TWO literary references here. Points for anyone who gets them.

I have to say that I'm mainly swayed by Di's argument. It seems preposterous to suggest that 15,000 deaths could be missed somehow. On the other hand no-one noticed 2,000 plus kids dying per month under peaceful sanctions, so you never know... I'm not decided yet, but I'm definitely still unconvinced by this very large figure. Personally I don't have a particular problem with the figure as being against my views. I know for sure that if the figure IS that high then it's not due in the main to Coalition forces. Because the researchers include by their own admission people who may have died due to personal vendettas, sickness, hunger, sectarian violence and general devilry. I know that, for example, US forces have repaired the Baghdad water works at least three times, only to have them destroyed by the insurgents every time. I'd be interested in the higher figure because what that should tell us is that we have no option whatsoever to abandon the country to its fate. Because however high the death toll is now it will increase by multiples if we bug out.

Well, I think there's plenty of ways to open kids eyes to other cultures than just the veil. Anything that teaches them that people who look 'funny' can be kind and gentle and worthy of respect etc etc. Anything that teaches them not to judge on external factors is good IMO. But, as I say, this isn't a simple thing about a headscarf or somesuch. This is about a very specific message being transmitted, and about the wider issue of hiding your face. There has to be a line where membership of a common society requires personal sacrifice. It's political philosophy 101. As has already been said, how about I start a religion where I am obliged to paint myself red, and dash about in the nude shrieking every Thursday. Frankly I'd quite enjoy that. BUt I'm not allowed to.

Alanschu has the key point. At what price is all this coddling? We ough to counter-sue for preventing our kids learning about real life, and getting fat!

I say we have a bot squashing hoe-down.

In the case of the BA employee I do see the point. Its a question of mixing the BA corporate image (the uniform) with a Christian symbol. The uniform is the uniform for a reason. In other words I'd have no problem with her wearing a crucifix if it were, say, in the small of her back or something. In the case of the teacher I get Hades point about acclimatising kids to other religions. I also would point out that the way things are going now, we'll be expecting our teachers to work in massive hazmat suits to keep them from being paedophiles. We're so scared of having humans teach our kids I'd think we'd like them to be covered head to toe. However, I also think that the veiled teacher should be a moot point as I consider the veil an emblem of female submission, and inconsistent with general societal rules about hiding your face! In other words I don't see how anyone should be wearing the veil, let alone a teacher. But that's just me, and maybe I'm a terrible person.

Actually, we had the same thing being debated here in the UK yesterday. I think the problem is that there is no concept of 'natural peril' inherent in law. There needs to be.

Of course if I were getting shot at while doing my job I imagine I'd cut some corners too.

Still reading. Thanks for taking the trouble to quote for us, Colrom.

Just a very nice man. If you like Garrison Keillor you'd love it.

Really? I rather thought that was the point of questioning the figure!

Only discovered him recently myself. He's like your funniest uncle ever. Plus very very talented on the piano.

Incidentally, can I get anyone impeached for NOT telling me we had to go to war with North Korea over WMD?

Actually I heard the same thing. The Danes were remarkable in spiriting away virtually all their jews from under the noses of the jackbootees. Their king also gave the Nazis the finger. Good on them. But I'd forgive them anyway for giving us Victor Borge.

Just a thought: The west stops drawing rude pictures of Mohammed when the East stops burning effigies of GWB and Tony. Or indeed when our newspapers stop drawing GW as a chimp. I'm not proGW. That's just how we are here. I mean many in the Mulsim world consider the way our women dress to be offensive. Should we change that?

I tell you if I were a dictator I'd go the Chinese route. No medals at all. I mean if yuo have supreme power why put up with the tedious business of lugging all that metal around? It's not as if anyone can call you a coward anyway.

Is bullcrap. At least in six figures. Their cluster sample will certainly be more accurate, if done properly. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know where you're getting the six figure thing. Have a read of IraqBodycount.com They aren't nearly so sure as you sound. I believe they put it at 45,000. I think it's also important to point out that all these studies look at deaths post invasion, not deaths directly caused by Coalition forces.