Jediphile

Both of you missed an A. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My apologies, this will be corrected shortly. Sheesh... I didn't expect this kind of Spanish Inquisi... uh oh!

3. He did say Revan was once Kae's padawan, which could be take as such. 4. I already gave all the relevant quotes on the page where you posted on. Please read it. 5. No, it can't have been Kreia. Kreia was Revan's first master, whether she is Kae or not, and Disciple tells us that the master he doesn't remember is the one Revan had *after* Kae... So it can't be Kreia, since Kreia was the first (and last). 6. Please see my answer to point 4. 7. She isn't cryptic, but the rest isn't so far off, and cryptic would seem to come from being a jedi, which Handmaiden never was. So because you think it's shallow that means it can't be done? It was used once (badly) in the Star Wars trilogy, so that means it cannot be used (much better) for a minor character in the Star Wars universe ever again? And force ghosts do exist in Star Wars, for the dark side even more so - Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, and Freedon Nadd come readily to mind... Again, see my answer to point 4 above.

Pure speculation, yes. No definite proof. But why plotholes? Because you don't like the idea? Also, I don't think it's very polite of you to infer bad argumentation for those of us who voice support of the idea just because you don't like it. Play fair please. Well, if you're going to argue ulterior motives for why a character is in the game, then why is Kae repeatedly mentioned as one of Revan's masters? What does that add to the plot? He did say Revan was her padawan. That could be interpreted to mean that she was his first master, just as Kreia says Revan was once her padawan. It seems to me that "padawan" is not merely another term for a student or apprentice, but rather a term for someone studying under a specific master. As I said before, consider the source. Only Kreia tells us that this is the reason Kae was exiled, and if she is indeed Kae and does not wish to admit that, then she has motive for not giving the correct reason for Kae's exile, since that would expose her. Jedi Knight is just a generic term for a jedi who has gone beyond the rank of padawan. Besides, it's Kreia calling Kae a jedi knight once, while the Disciple consistently calls her a master. I'll take Disciple's word over Kreia's any day. And the exile never says Kae died in the war - the Handmaiden does, though Kae's body was conveniently never recovered.... " So if there is no evidence for, say, there being life on other worlds, then that means there can't be? Please... Besides, K2 was written as a "to be continued" story, and since force ghosts are possible, that doesn't exclude more information on Kae or Kreia in the next plot. So that means it is impossible for Kae to have had white hair also? As Atton said, Kreia must have been beautiful once. The dark side tends to take its toll...

No, they wouldn't have written down "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrggggghhhh" Well, maybe if he was dictating... "

In the Mandalorian Wars, just like Kae. Note the comments when she reveals herself to the jedi council on Dantooine, when they sentence the Exile. When she enters, the masters react like this: Vrook: "Wh-? Kreia: "Step away! He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!You will not harm him. You will not harm him ever again." Kavar: "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars..." Kreia: "Die? No - became stronger, yes." Vrook: "Is this your new Master, exile? If so, then you follow Revan's path. Her teachings will cause you to fall as surely as he did.We sought to lure the Sith out... and now they have come to us." Yes. Kreia: "Never have you wondered what it would mean in the Echani rituals if the two of you sparred and fought - and you won, completely and utterly?If perhaps she would give in, surrender herself to you? "

Agreed, but even if I think Kreia is Arren Kae, I must admit that all the evidence is circumstantial - there is no smoking gun, just an awful lot of details that support the theory. Not sure either of them was on Dantooine, and nobody mentions Kae after the Mandalorian Wars, since she is presumed to have died on Malachor V. Clearly Disciple remembers her, and Handmaiden does too - she just never knew her mother. I think she was Kae until Malachor V, then became Darth Traya, letting everyone think Kae was dead. When she was then cast out by Sion and Nihilus, she "created" the "Kreia" persona from those two - K(ae)+(T)raya=Kraya=Kreia. Good point, since while that would seem obvious for Kae, given her relationship with Yusanis, it would not be so for Kreia. Yes. And as Atton said: "I mean, how old do you think she is? She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."

That wing is one of three objects you need if you want to repair the Airspeeder you can find the Serocco section of the Refugee Sector. Do this as soon as possible if you want to finish it, since it cannot be done after your meeting with the Exchange.

We all do - it's just a matter of digging through the dialog.tlk file for them. It's more difficult to identify them and to see what was in the game and what was cut content. I usually identify it by phrases I hear in the game (and which are therefore obviously not cut content)... The lines about Kae I pay attention to, because her background is such a mystery. But it is speculation, yes. All arguments against Kreia being Kae can be explained, at least that I've heard, but I'm also confident that we'd have found the smoking gun by now if it was there...

As the Exile leaves the jedi enclave on Dantooine: Gerevick: "Many stories and artifacts in your possession? This is fortuitous for myself and associates.For now not only do I get rich salvage, but an even richer bounty. Do not be making this difficult. Your death can be quite painless." Exile: "I'm afraid your's won't be..." Gerevick: "So this is your threat? Is terror what I'm supposed to feel? We know a thing about Jedi and their ways.And now, Jedi, we shall fight." HK-47: "Eager statement: Oh, thank the maker - this bloodbath is going to feel so good..."

Yes... Especially if Vash's apprentice is also around... "

Well, the quote is this: Disciple: "Revan sought out many other teachers to learn certain techniques. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange. As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled." Judge for yourself...

Actually, I'm not convinced that giving birth to Brianna was the reason for Kae's exile. It seems like a very harsh sentence, especially when you consider Jolee's story about his wife in the first game, which he was completely forgiven for by the order (but not himself...). And only Kreia tells us that this is the reason for Kae's exile, which would be convenient, if she does not want to admit being Kae. Also, isn't it a bit odd that this was discovered and Kae exiled *just* as the Mandalorian Wars began, and that she then rushed to join it? It seems a little too convenient to me... Note the following: Kae and Kreia both had Revan as their padawan - not merely apprentice. They were both exiled at the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars They were both believed to have died in the Mandalorian Wars. As Garak would say on DS9, "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." "

That depends entirely on how you look at it. Some see the following as reasons against it: Kreia: "You are spending time with the servant of Atris. I knew her mother. She was a Jedi Knight - a master, named Arren Kae." (Different person because Kreia merely knew Kae) Handmaiden: "I never saw her face, and she did not return from the final battle of the war. She died in the battle that shattered Malachor V, and her body was never recovered." (Kae is already dead) Kreia: "Jedi are forbidden to have children, and when the crime finally came to light almost a decade later, Kae was exiled." (Kreia was exiled for her dark teachings) Personally I find all of the above do not present us with conclusive evidence against Kreia being Kae. For the first, it is obvious that Kreia might lie about being Kae. For the second it is quite telling that Kae supposedly died, yet her body just conveniently vanished... For the third, it is again Kreia telling us that having a child was the the crime Kae was exiled for, which would be a given if she does not want to admit that she is actually Kae herself, and notably nobody else ever says that this was the reason for Kae's exile (at least that I have seen). But there is no smoking gun that definitely tells us that Kreia is Kae either - there is only speculation and conjecture, and given how much this has been discussed, I doubt we will get closer to a final answer, unless Obsidian themselves decide to shed light on the matter.

Why is it bad writing that Obsidian brought more depth and subtlety to the character? I think what you describe here is a very simplistic black/white perspective. I find that there are explanations to all of this in K2, though it is true that all the cut content means that you really have to dig for it. But I do think they did their homework plotwise, and that your perspective is rather limited - you have to look at the various stages of "evil Revan". As others have already said, Revan and Malak were already evil before they found the StarForge, since why else would they accept exile from the jedi order by finding the starmap on Dantooine? Revan had already embraced the dark side at that point. What is less clear are the reasons. If Revan already knew of the threat of the true Sith at that point, then he might have done as Kreia suggests and sacrificed himself to the dark side to prevent a greater evil. This would have happened at the Trayus Academy. Yes, this means he is evil now and will kill people, but his motives for having done this in the first placemight be those of serving the greater good - compare to Ulic Qel-Droma before the Sith War and Luke Skywalker in "Dark Empire". Besides, Revan was always the strategist who was prepared to sacrifice, as Canderous noted frequently in K1. I do find it consistent with the character. Perhaps his idea was to embrace the StarForge and build an armada, which he would then strike against the true Sith with. Or so he told himself. Perhaps he didn't intend to fight the Republic at all. But when he found the StarForge, his intentions were twisted by the dark side influence there, and he could no longer persue his original plan, and simply conquering the true Sith was no longer enough for the evil ambitions his embrace of the dark side had imposed upon him. The Republic was weak, so instead of being something he sacrificed himself to protect, it became something he had to conquer for power and for later conquest of the true Sith. Adds up in my book... No argument there. Revan probably tried to to embrace the dark side and control it, convinced on his ability to resist given his own power. Which is, of course, a very arrogant position, and just the same mistake as Ulic made (and Luke, to a lesser extent). I think Revan's choice to fight the true Sith after the events of K1 was based on necessity. If DS he could no longer deny his own inability to control the StarForge (he hadn't controlled it - it had controlled him!), and if LS he had to face the fact that he could not embrace the dark side without his goals being perverted. So what does he do? He goes to the Sith empire, embraces the dark side, then begins building his own powerbase *within* the Sith empire to become its new ruler. If DS he does this because he won't let the StarForge twist his intentions anymore and because his converted jedi forces have now been squandered by Malak, and he remains confident that instead subvert the Sith empire and turn many of their people to his cause. If LS Revan realises that whatever happens, the dark side will try to twist his intentions again, so if he goes to the Sith empire before embracing it again, then his ambitions for power will be destructive internally to the true Sith and not harm the Republic. Maybe he even intends to fail and expects to perish before he can grow so powerful that he can threaten the Republic again, hoping that by then he has weakened the true Sith so much with civil war that it will be too weak to strike against the Republic.

I suppose the easy answer to that question is that he wanted to conquer and rule the Sith empire himself, and he needed the Republic's resources and manpower to do that...

Well, the exact quote is: Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order." So, yes, it could be a different Kae, but then she would also have had to leave for the war just as Arren Kae did, which I think is unlikely to the point of severe improbability, if not impossibility...

One thing I find to be missing from the "evidence" collected in Wikipedia is the significance of who tells us that Kae was exiled for having a child. Because we know that only from Kreia - nobody else ever says that was the reason. And, I mean, consider the source... "

The Exile is on his way to meet Visquis on Nar Shaddaa, when Mira stops him... Mira: "I know you got a message from the squid-head Visquis. He works for Goto, and it's a trap." Exile: "No? You think....?" "

My latest male exile (LS) is named Jel-Shar. Before that I used the name "Panar" (also LS male) and "Fatira" for my DS female exile. For K1 I remember only one name for Revan (male LS). It was "Bain"

Yup, you nailed our beloved Kreia

I guess that's one reason why there is little - since you have to do some planets before others, you just lose out on too many influence options, if you take certain planets first. A bunch of people will already be in the group by the time you leave Telos, but if you wait too long before going to Nar Shaddaa, it becomes very difficult to build enough influence with HK-47 and GOTO, especially if you're LS and want your mastery status back...

Nar Shaddaa refugee sector: Refugee: "Are you crazy? Those were Exchange thugs! They'll come back and tear you apart". Exile: "Let them - I can handle them. For now I need some information. Have you heard of a Jedi Master named Zez-Kai Ell?" Refugee: "There aren't any jedi left, let alone masters. But you're serious, aren't you? All right - well, look, if I were a Jedi, I'd be where I could help people. As for where that happens on Nar Shaddaa, I have no idea." Exile: "Yeah, I see your point. I mean, it's not as if I just saved you from the Exchange..." "

I usually don't build much influence with Mandalore, because there doesn't seem to be much point. He can't become a jedi, doesn't have much of a backstory (that you hear, at least), doesn't grant you any special abilities or bonus, and doesn't reveal any secrets at all... At least as far as I have experienced or read on any forum or in any spoilers or guides. Anyone have any experience with influence with Mandalore leading to *anything* at all?

No

Vandar was believed to have died at Katarr. But then again so was Atris. A couple of the Masters comment that they were surprised when the Exile says Atris is on Telos since they thought she died at Katarr. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but while we know that Atris lived (or indeed never went to Katarr at all), the problem if Vandar lives is that Nihilus' destruction on Katarr is reduced to almost nothing storywise, because if Vandar and several other masters did not die there after all, then what does it matter dramatically that the jedi there were killed by Nihilus? Nothing, because we don't care about the other jedi - we don't know them and never met them, so they are nothing to us. One thing I really didn't like in K2 was that the mentioned that both Zhar, Dorak and Vandar had perished on Katarr, because that means they all survived Malak's attack on Dantooine in K1, and if that is so, then why should we care about it, when none of the characters we knew there died. Vandar, Dorak and Zhar obviously all survived to then die on Katarr (or Vandar in the StarForge battle if Revan was DS), and naturally Vrook survived too, since we meet him again in K2... If they do a K3 and the player sets Revan to LS, I think they should mention that Juhani also died on Katarr...