Jediphile

Un-bunch your tighty whities, don't call your mom to yell at me, stop flipping out and take your ritalin. If you took it personally, thats your problem, dont get a hemorrhoid. Those who complain that good editing decisions and added scenes ruined the original films are the ones who should be ashamed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, come on. How can you tell people they should be ashamed and then expect them not to be insulted? If you disagree with them, then fine. That's fair enough. But then state your position and explain your reasons for it. Your opinion is no better than mine or Wild Storm's, or anyone else's. If you make a potentially inflamatory comment, then you can expect nothing else. Opinions welcome. Trolling, no thank you - we're all stocked up here... Nobody is getting ticked off because you voiced your opinion. It was the suggestion that he should be ashamed that did that. And no, I don't agree with you that all the changes were for the best. There are some really annoying additions in ANH with lots of stupid robots and so just as Luke and Ben enter Mos Eisley. Did they hurt the film? No. Did they enhance the experience? No. They just made it longer, which isn't an achievement in itself. And see my previous post for why the Greedo change was inexcusable. Oh, and on the subject of Greedo, check this site

In both cases (non-fluidic combat and lack of dismemberment) you can blame the d20 RPG system that KotOR was based on. It's basically a revision of the D&D 3e system, which I also hate with a passion (despite being an old AD&D GM myself, or perhaps because of it...). I've played d20 Star Wars PnP, but I really did prefer the old d6 system, and there are certainly game systems out there that are far better than d20. But while that is true, I really *don't* want a Jedi Academy-ish realtime combat system. EVER! I want the outcome of the battle to depend on the skill of the character I'm playing, not on how well I press buttons. Because I suck at pressing those buttons, which is probably a major reason why I prefer CRPGs to most other game types. But I'm all for dropping d20 entirely, and I certainly never played KotOR because it used the system. On contrary, it was far more because I thought the plots were interesting in spite of being d20-based. If they can replace the system with something that is more fluid without turning real-time, then I'm all for it.

Does that make sense? It is so hard for me to tell anymore :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It would make sense, except for the last bit where you quote Kreia, but leave a bit out. The full quote is: Kreia: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one." That last bit is fairly important. Because it suggests that the corruption of the jedi is not merely an inescapable consequence of the events on Malachor V. The Exile is not some omniscient being who can defy the laws of physics, so how did s/he resist the corruption that befall all other jedi? How is it possible that the Exile did not fall to the dark side, if that is the natural and inevitable consequence of what happened? The only explanation I can see is that his/her ability to do so is the very proof of the will of the force that Kreia is talking about. None of the other jedi could resist that will, but the Exile did. S/he defied the destiny that was cast upon him/her and denied the will of the force. Yes, except that changed when he began using the force again. That's when he became a leech/siphon. Well, is the consequence of his choice a question of what his own morality bids him to do? Clearly the Exile did not want to fall to the dark side, but what I found intersting was that he actually had to deny and even wound the force in order to prevent that from happening.

Ah, but the Exile is not feeling the Force solely through Kreia but through Atton, Mira, Bao, Mical/Handmaiden, Visas and (like I said before) life in general, too. Remember Atton was there from the beginning as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But you go on without them remember? And no mentioning the extra female ending. Adding that would have been stupid since the Exile was to be alone, just like Revan. If they did use that though I'm sure your next siphon would be on Revan. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You might think so, but there seems to be a lot going on at the end of K2 that the Exile is unaware of. For example, a big reason for his search for the jedi is the bond with Kreia, which can harm them both and even kill one if the other dies. Yet Kreia dies at the end, and the Exile is fine. Why? There is more going on, and I have my suspicions about it... Suffice it to say that I think the Exile restored his own connection to the force...

I have no doubts here. "No Luke, *I* am your father!" for the win

Nope. Atton will fight Sion and then that will determine his final fate (if it's equal or above). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That seems to depend on whether the female Exile is LS or DS. I think the Atton vs. Disciple fight only occurs, if the female Exile is DS and has more influence with Disciple than Atton. A similar fight exists for the male DS Exile, where Handmaiden tries to kill Visas. Not sure, but the Atton vs. Sion battle may only be a LSF option.

I don't, because it's unresolved as it is now.

Ah, but that's just what they want you to think... Old Bao-Dur is a crafty old manipulator, and the whole thing is just a little too convenient. Besides, you can't really rule out that there is something more going on here, can you? :ph34r:

"I'd love to know what's going on in that shifty mind of yours" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sometimes so would I... Not sure if this is one of them, though

Given that Myrkr was the homeworld of the Neti, and there was a Neti jedi master (Odd Bnar, though he was from the neti colony on Ryyk) during the Sith War (against Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma), it seems unlikely that the knowledge of the Ysalamiri and their powers would be unknown to the jedi order. The jedi could have forgotten about the Ysalamiri specifically after the Sith War and then the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War, where many jedi and much of their lore was lost, but they certainly have had access to the knowledge and probably studied its effects on the force, I'd say. Yes. What I really didn't like about that was how it was completely reversal of Zez-Kai Ell's position, as he describes it on Nar Shaddaa. He seemed by far the most likable of the masters in K2 (except perhaps for the lost Master Vash...) Yes, that's a good explanation. I hate the midi-cholorians, but that does make sense

Coruscant at the end of RotJ was actually added to the theatrical remake from 1996. But Naboo and Hayden Christensen (along with Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine in ESB and replacement of Jeremy Bullock's original voice for Boba Fett) were not added until the DVD release (from 2004), as you correctly point out. I agree that they messed up a bit regarding Obi-Wan's age. They should either have made him a little older in the prequels, or else they should have let the prequels begin further back in time. Anakin sure looking more than his early forties to me when Sebastian Shaw played him at the end of RotJ. Though I am definitely "old school" (and saw the original movie in the cinema), I generally don't mind the changes that have been made and feel that many of them enhance the movies more than anything. Lots of people hate the Solo and Jabba scene in ANH, but I've actually been waiting to see it since I saw the scene recreated in the original comic book version of ANH when the movie came out (though Jabba looked *quite* different back then...) There is one particular change that I find to be unforgivable, though! It's the changed Greedo scene, where Greedo now suddenly shoots before Han does. Taking aside the ludicrous notion of just how Greedo was able to miss at point-blank range, the change is inexcusable because it changes Han Solo's character. The whole scene was defining for Solo, depicting him as a hardened scoundrel who wouldn't refrain from cold-blooded acts when it was necessary for his survival. That's the definition of Han Solo. Whatever Lucas decides to change him into later, that's where he began. That's where he had to begin. But with this change, Han is reduced in his conviction and resolve, because he is now far more guided by his ethics and moral compass, even if it's going to get him killed. And the whole point was to demonstrate, that Han Solo wouldn't shy back from hard choices due to moral scrouples if the need arose. How else would he survive in the harsh world of a smuggler? There is no answer to that now... :angry:

Well, let's listen to the wisdom (!) of HK-47 of all people... HK-47: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again." HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic." From these comments it seems clear that Revan purposefully manipulated events to suit his/her plans and knew exactly what the consequences would be for the jedi - s/he knew what the will of the force would be. Still, that doesn't rule out your own explanation, but bear in mind what Kreia tells the LS Exile after the meeting with the masters. Kriea: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid." Here it becomes clear, at least to me, that the Exile did walk away from the "destiny" that was thrust upon him/her by the force, especially when you compare it to something Kreia says at the end of the game. Kreia: "In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them.But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force." And a little later... Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it." Well, the force isn't exactly the same as lifeforce per se, it seems, though they seem to be connected. The easiest way to understand that is by listening to Qui-Gon's explanation of the midi-cholorians. Note that he tells Anakin that the jedi would have no knowledge of the force without them, not that all life would cease to exist. Now, I hate that explanation myself, but either way, we know that the force and life are not the same, because if it were, then the ability of the Ysalamiri (from Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy novels) to "push back the force" would be deadly, and clearly it is not. Luke doesn't die when they push the force back, he just loses his connection to the force for a while. Now, whether that means Kreia can kill the force without destroying all life I'm not sure, but clearly they are not exactly the same. It might just as well be that the Ysalamiri can just make the force "dormant" somehow. Kreia manipulates people as always, yes. Should the Exile have noticed the lost connection? Perhaps, but the Exile was very traumatized at the time, and there is a lot the character has somehow "forgotten". I think there is even more that remains unrevealed so far. The Exile is, according to the recording we see of Vandar and Vrook on Dantooine, actually a mediocre jedi. But s/he has a powerful gift for creating force bonds. So though the direct connection to the force was cut, those bonds were at lot more powerful. Besides, the Exile wasn't consciously aware of what had happened. I think the important thing to notice here is that he has the ability (unlike other jedi/sith it seems), yet lacks any conscious control over it...

No, it's not, but then I don't think that's what The Architect is suggesting (judging from my previous talks with him). It seems to be that he is merely suggesting that Revan be DS for whatever reason, because that makes writing K3 much easier. In my own plot suggestion, there was another reason. Because you do meet Revan in K2 (after a fashion). And you meet yourself (the Exile)! It was in the cave on Korriban, where you have visions. First you had two visions of the past (Malak recruiting jedi at the academy and the Exile leading troops against the Mandalorians on Dxun). Then you had an encounter from the present (Kreia being confronted by several of your other companions). And finally you meet Revan and yourself. Isn't that the future? And note that if you force sight at that point, you can see that both Revan and the Exile have DS mastery. Revan's already been at it for four years when K2 begins. Add however long K3 takes place after K2 to that... Several things here... Palpatine was very subtle, longsighted, and patient. Revan is far more hands-on, decisive, and "cut to the chase"... Also, there is a big difference between subveriting the rule of the republic, where jedi and others are constantly looking for corruption in the system, and doing it among the sith, where powergames and corrupting is expected as a fact of life Actually I think that comment was just put in K2 to signal that the Exile will have followed in K3 no matter if he turned LS or DS... That's what I think Revan is planning, yes. If DS he does it for the power. If LS he does it save the republic. It depends. In my own plot speculation, I made the third person the one who either orchestrates Revan's redemption or else has to kill him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But how would that person be significant in a personal way to either Revan or the story? I think that is what JohnZ117 is driving at. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't give that character a personal way to Revan. I did, however, give that person a special empathic ability to sense the motivations of others, so that s/he could determine Revan's (and Exile's) hidden feelings. And I brought Bastila in as a major companion fairly early in my plot, so that Revan would have a personal connection to her, and she would have one to the new character.

That's not the impression I get from reading the dialog.tlk file...

Yes, if you make Anakin about five years older and cut any and all gungans from the movie completely, then Ep. I doesn't seem so bad anymore. I'd have replaced Naboo with Alderaan as well... The biggest problem with the actual plot is that it's just a bit boring. A big part of the problem is that you just don't buy sweet little Ani in Ep. I as the boy who will be Darth Vader one day... And Hayden Christensen's acting is just awful I got the distinct impression that he had already fallen by the time Ep. II began, and I hadn't been allowed to see it. He just hadn't fallen very far yet. Yes, but I never found the plots to be that problematic. It's the other things that surround the plot that was annoying to me. Why, oh why, did we have to have JarJar in there? :angry: The Exile has the power to the deny the will of the force. He was destined by the will of the force to fall to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V. But he didn't. He resisted that will, and he did so by severing himself completely from the force. That's why he lost his contact to it, not because (as he mistakenly thinks) the masters cut him off from the force, but because he did so himself. We never see him regain his ties during the game. He has access to the force only through the force bonds he can form with others and then siphon to himself through that connection - his own connection is lost and remains so throughout K2 (or so it seems). That's his similarity to Nihilus - they can both drain force from other force sensitives, and particularly jedi of course. Would she? I don't know, and I'm not sure Kreia does either. But I do agree that she hates the force enough to take that risk. That is probably precisely what she intended with Nihilus, but he rebelled against her. And Nihilus does not seem to have the same sort of control over his power as the Exile does. Note how Kreia describes Nihilus - and especially his ability to devour worlds - to the Exile.... Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." {Quietly}"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts." {Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." He is a bit of both, but probably more the former, if you ask me. Note that if the Exile is DS, he still cannot simply kill the masters by draining them (until after they're dead, at least...) As for Kreia's motives, she's a vengeful old bat! She may have cast down the mantle of the Sith herself at one point, but that doesn't mean she likes being thrown out by her apprentices. She doesn't like the jedi, but she still wants them to accept the truth of her own teachings. Note that it's only when they refuse to see the truth she brings them that she steps in to bring them down, though she could clearly have killed them at any point. Much as she hates the jedi code, she clearly respects the jedi more than the sith in some ways, because she at least has some hope that the jedi might see her side of things, whereas Nihilus and Sion are clearly just to be punished for their unbecoming insolence...

Where did this forum come from? And why was the KotOR3 topic moved here? Surely K3 is as much "Computer and Console" as Oblivion, CoC, or any other computer game we can think of...

Don't forget that the sith have been hunting the jedi from the shadows, so the masters know nothing about who these sith are. The most they know is that they attacked Katarr and destroyed all life there (but one). Naturally this was Nihilus, but the masters don't know that - they only know that the power that destroyed Katarr was somehow related to the Exile, since they felt the same thing in the force when they judged him/her. That's the connection between the exile and the "Sith" - a connection between the exile and Nihilus, which still hasn't been fully revealed, and which I suspect may be unveiled in K3. Kreia doesn't equal the force with all life. Note how she respects the skills of common people and berate the jedi (when she speaks with Atton while the Exile is sleeping on Citadel Station over Telos) for being helpless without the force. Is she correct? We don't know, but she hates the force enough to want to kill it even it has consequences for all life. Personally, I think her relation with the Sith was in no small part due to Nihilus' ability to wound the force, which Kreia probably also intended to control. When Nihilus and Sion then cast her out, she instead found the only other person who could wound the force - the Exile - and then used him both to harm the force and to take revenge on her enemies (the jedi masters and her defiant sith apprentices).

"Be mindful of the living force, young padawan" "There is no civility, only politics." "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." "Mmm. Lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing. How embarrassing..." "Don't forget, she's a politician, and they're *not* to be trusted." "The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it." "I love democracy... I love the republic..." "Twice the pride, double the fall." "What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?" "Hmm. To a dark place this line of thought will take us. Great care we must take." "Not to worry. We're still flying half a ship..." "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." "At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was. If so powerful you are, why leave? " "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." "So this is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause..." "Into exile I must go. Failed, I have..." "You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy." "Only a Sith deals in absolutes!" Sorry, but no. Popular though it may be to slash the prequels, they are not quite that useless IMHO.

Why would DS Revan fight for years to become the greatest and most powerful Sith of all time and then suddenly decide to kill himself?!?

I think you're forgotting another famous Star Wars quote by another famous jedi master: "Many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..." In short, don't forget that Kreia has a very different perspective on things, and she *hates* the force with a vengeance! So it's quite natural that she is not going to be spouting the same pro-force "propaganda" that Yoda or Obi-Wan do. That does not mean that the devs are making fun of Lucas' ideas, however. It just means that they are expanding upon them, exploring the depths of the force, which is more than relevant in a game about jedi knights. And Kreia is a different character, because while she is as sly and manipulative as Palpatine, she has an entirely different goal. Palpatine/Sidious merely wanted to take over power in the galaxy, rule the republic, and destroy the jedi - your basic power-hungry megalomaniac and evil overlord. Kreia, however, is at war with god just as Ahab was - note her comments about how she hates the will of the force that seems to dictate a destiny for everyone - and she wants to destroy the force as a consequence, even at the cost of her own life (which she does sacrifice at the end, because the exile can harm the force itself where she cannot). Palpatine would *never* have done that!

Could you please tell me more details about this? I played as a female 3 times and nothing like this ever came up... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well...they didn't exactly get into a "dogfight" (which isn't a fight between two males but rather a fight in the air). There was simply friction between the two. Atton would constantly shove Disciple off, etc. They were supposed to get into an actual fight at Malachor but I don't want to have to go into what happened there... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were... and they will once the Restoration Project is finished... spoiler!

We did get the Goto and remote cutscene. It's the ensuing scenes with HK-47 and the HK-50/HK-51 units that are missing.

It depends. In my own plot speculation, I made the third person the one who either orchestrates Revan's redemption or else has to kill him.

Only if you play LS