Shdy314

DS powers by their very name should give DS points dontcha think. That's how it is in SW D20. A game many people have played and enjoyed despite the difficulties of playing LS. You keep saying a game that makes it hard to be LS would be annoying but SW D20 makes it very hard to be LS and is still a lot of fun. Sorry, but being LS is supposed to be hard. Everything in the SW mythos shows it being hard. And KOTOR 2 should reflect this. Otherwise just go play Jedi Power Battles (Fun if you play with more than one person). Not every game has to be a simple hack and slash to be enjoyable.

Well it does just repeat NUMEROUS posts that say the exact same thing. So poor? <_<

No they won't. People will choose the simple way. The goal of a game is to be fun but RPGs are held to a higher standard than just that. People judge the dialogues, endings, quests, NPCs and reactions much more harshly than they do in FPS games. Actually the thing people ask for most in RPGs is more complicated quests. People find using subterfuge and spending an hour on a quest starting an interstellar war much more satisfying than "fight your way to the bottom level of a 50 level dungeon and grab the dagger of who cares and bring it back to me for your reward. Or deliver this letter for me to the next city over." That is boring. Realistic, involved complex quests with big payoffs/repercussions are much more fun. Which quest is more fun? Finding and completing the Genoharadan quests or doing the Star Forge on Dantooine? I think most will say the Genoharadan stuff was much more fun. How can the game recognize when you are killing every single Sith trooper in the game? I don't know much about programming or anything but I have to believe there is a way for the game to know this. Anyways I dont really care if we get some DS points for it. I will simply settle for ALARMS and guards having back up etc. so it is more annoying to have to fight your way through. As long as combat doesn't give XP.

That's playing one person 10 different times. I could hardly be arsed to play somebody twice, let alone ten. Plus, the situation I described would be a lot more interesting. Normally I didn't play Pazaak but just two games got me 1000 credits.Thats worth playing Pazaak many times. I bought every single special item on Korriban. Yes a tournament would be interesting. But playing every Pazaak player as much as they allowed netted thousands of credits and some items. So I do think it's silly to say Pazaak didn't earn you enough credits. And you shouldn't just be allowed to join a Pazaak tournament you should have to prove yourself in lots of one on one matches and get invited.

There was a guy on Tattooine in the hunters lodge that would play forever and each game you could win a couple hundred credits after playing him about 10 times the amount you could bet went up to like 500. Probably a bug but he made me filthy rich. How much money do you want to win from it? That being said there should definitely be a Pazaak tournament. The more things I can become a champion of the better. There should also be a swoop bike championship. Im sure they recovered from the destruction of Taris by now.

Until it got insanely convoluted with the later rules.

Going to your objective and slicing anyone that gets in your way is stupid, unrealistic and a little DS. The game SHOULD recognize the way you are playing the game. Doing things the simple way IS ALWAYS the evil way. When is the good way ever easier? Unless you're dealing with an intrinsically good situation(like helping orphans) then a DS character may have to work harder to turn it to their advantage in some evil way but otherwise simple always equates to evil. At least in SW. That is why it is so easy to slip to the DS. Simple. Don't give XP for anything but quests. The LS is not going be more rewarding in the long run except for the warm fuzzy feeling you get helping people and knowing that people look up to and respect your virtue. I hate how people think if they do something the hard way they deserve some kind of greater reward at the end. What I am proposing in no way means all LS characters need high stealth skill. notice in my examples I mention things like using dominate mind or disarming opponents with pull and push. Give us subdual damage! so we can knock people out. Both LS and DS players should go intelligently through the Sith base. But DS players will be willing to kill more and the option is simply better for them not LIMITED to them. You are limiting your imagination. When I say sneak through a base I am not saying everytime turning on your stealth field and walking around I am talking about Dominate Mind, disguises etc. You seem to be saying no to intelligent options since you keep saying quests should be kept so simple a 5 year old can do them and the player should be able to do them without any kind of penalty. If you put in tons of kewl advanced options but then make sure there is always some super simple (though unrealistic) and super quick option 99% of players are going to do it the simple way. Like security. Should be a kewl skill to have except then to "keep it simple" you can bash open any thing with any weapon without any kind of penalty. So why use security?

Combat with lightsabers vs. ANYTHING is not balanced. Lightsabers will own. I think ti proves that players don't mind intelligent gameplay and playing sneaky characters as long as doing so remains a fun and viable option and they aren't penalized for it. Like getting no XP from sneaking by the guard and having to kill them for it. Yeah it'd be nice if the computer usage was expanded. It is odd you say you want complexity in the computer usage but then rail against my desire for more complex indepth actions in general. The Sith troopers are not insane religious zealots like The Covenant in Halo. And they DONT get backup! which is part of the problem I have with how they handle what SHOULD be infiltration missions but turn into hackfests. They may have armor and a rifle but those are both useless against a Jedi. It's as if soldiers stayed and atempted to take out a tank when they lack any kind of armament that can stop the tank. Jedi is the tank and Sith troopers are the soldiers. Soldiers DO retreat when faced with an impossible situation as long as retreat is an option. Now when assaulting a massive Sith military base I agree they aren't going to flee because they should have overwhelming numbers on their side. But in KOTOR they DONT. Which is boring and unrealistic. And Jedi DO have armor? They wear robes! Even in the movies Jedi do not want to be detected on board major military installations if they can help it. For example Obi wan on the Death Star. Even Yoda would be hard pressed to fight every single guard on board the Death Star. And it is a lot harder to commit acts of sabotage when in the middle of a firefight. Well KOTOR 2 has force sight so who needs radar? And you can stealth. LS is already forced to do things the hard way but in a very contrived and stupid way. It is supposed to be this way in SW. Staying LS is HARD. This should be reflcted in game. And not by making me solve a puzzle instead of releasing a poison. Though the consequences for releasing said poison are very nice and realistic. Darkness doesn't matter when you can stealth. Look at the stealth camo in MGS. They never detected Mission when she was cloaked so I don't know why you think guards automatically detect any stealthed characters. Some important enemies though do have scripts that reveal you even if stealthed. But not regular old Sith troopers. Oh and Sith troopers should patrol. Why are 5 hanging around in a lab????? Patrol the freaking corridors. And there is a damaged droid just hovering out in a hallway!? What is that? Overcomplexity?????!!! A raid on a Sith military compound on a Sith occupied planet isn't SIMPLE! Okae everyone raise your hand if you want KOTOR to just be a simple adventure game (which it almost was) where walking into heavily guarded Sith outposts is simple and being LS is a breeze. It isn't a "nightmare" to put situations in the game for you to act intelligently. And it isn't a nightmare to reflect how difficult it is supposed to be to remain LS in SW. Yes AI should be smarter. This is KOTOR 2 not KOTOR. Stop saying why it wouldn't work in KOTOR. This is the sequel where things can be improved. If you are just looking for a good time without thinking play whack-a-mole or something. This is an RPG NOT an FPS. Where actions are supposed to have direct repercussions and what you do should change the game world. You should have to do your best to avoid conflict to remain LS. It is more true to Star Wars. Let me say once again just to be clear there is a time to fight. And killing to save yourself and friends is perfectly acceptable even to an LS character. But choosing every time to walk in the front door of a Sith military base and start swinging or telling everyone "Open the door or die" is LOOKING for a fight which WILL lead to the dark side. It is too aggressive. Even Luke first tries to reason with Jabba. This is all my opinion too and no you have not offended me.

Oh joy a thread to discuss the ideas brought up in another thread. That will be easy to follow. I heard we will be able to see dead people. I think that is totally innaccurate. Look at force sight power and Jedi seem to talk to ghosts a lot. So I don't think this would be a twist at all. Think this was in Ivan's thread page 1.

I think it's biggest problem(besides always making you go first) is it takes too damn long to play. Make it as quick as 21 since that's what it basically is. Then I'll play it a lot more.

I wouldn't be a mod even If I was offered. Just saying three topics on the same thing on the first page is a big waste. Not going to yell at anyone that wants to post here or anything.

Okae hate to sound like Tyrell but 3 topics on this all on the first page is too excessive even to me. We already have one that is not serious at all and full of some very funny jokes. And another serious one. Put your theories in those.

You're absolutely right except I don't think a Jedi would fall from such things as freeing slaves (provided he didn't always kill to do it) He'd just be a gray Jedi like Jolee. And the Jedi Code doesn't say you must repesect every law on every planet. They should really only be expected to uphold the laws of the Republic and their own morality/humanity. I think a Jedi could fall just as easily by interpreting the Jedi Code to mean he can never get involved unless ordered to by the Council or Senate. And then idly standing by as people suffer. B) Something to think about.

Agreed about the lack of dilemma's but I think a Jedi has a lot more option than just his/her lightsaber to solve their problems. And that is what an LS Jedi would do. Dominate: Mind, sneak in and set the slaves all free, disarm the guards non violently. I don't think freeing the slaves is DS. Choosing to kill the slavers who aren't technically breaking the law is. I don't think the force or Jedi council judges by what the law is on a particular planet. At least it shouldn't because that'd be retarded. It should be about how you choose to handle said dilemma. Or let your NPCs that don't have to worry about DS dilemmas handle it.

These tend to be differing shades of blue, though I do have a few black ones. Make sure you wash the black ones inside-out, otherwise they fade a lot. Genes are blue? Damn hand me down, thrift store sh**.

You really want these responses in your thread? Seems a little control freak like yourself would like to keep your thread nice and serious while the jokers screw around here. Glad you aren't a mod so you can't lock any post with humour.

Genes?

He never said he wanted ALL battles to have enemies run away or give the option to redeem them. Is a silly argument tool to try and put words in someone else's mouth. Them reaching half health and surrendering every time IS realistic. By this point Im sure the Jedi has cut off their hand or something but you're right it WOULD get rather annoying. But he even pointed out in FO2 enemies would run away when low on hitpoints and I'm not sure but sometimes they'd run away right at the beginning of the fight. I could swear they actually realized I was in power armor sporting a gauss rifle and they were punks in leather jackets with smgs. WOW! Amazing. And not annoying at all. In BG2 there is a really funny ORC that surrenders to you and it's just like "Thank you! Someone without the bravado of a religious zealot. They ambush me, shoot at me from behind fortified walls and I still manage to slaughter them and not a single one pleads for me to spare their life??? EVER?!" It also brought up an interesting moral choice. He IS an orc. He has attacked and killed humans before. Should you show mercy? Right about the overload. That's just manipulation of the energy flow to overwhelm a conduit. But even I had to express disbelief when you gas a room. Why is toxic gas flowing through a pipe in a room with guards?

Yes Deus Ex is an FPS. So what? You can quite literally sneak around in KOTOR. Unlike in games like MGS you can quite literally turn invisible just like in Deus Ex. It is quite possible to sneak around in KOTOR very effectively using the stealth belt. The problem is it is not worth it because among other things there are only two NPCS even remotely suited to stealthing with you. Bypassing something directly is not any different from going through an air vent or anything. Using Deus Ex 2 as a further example you could directly bypass guards and or cameras with the prper biomods. It's a lot of fun walking right by a giant killer robot and a camera instead of crawling through vents. Makes me feel really bada**. They don't hear or detect you unless your stealth skill sucks. Which is why you'd want high stealth skill. Interacting with doors or consoles doesn't disable your stealth field. It should be forced on LS players to play intelligently and not to actively seek out situations where they know they have to kill. LS is HARD. Stop whining that LS players should have an easy time through the game. DS is supposed to be the easy way. Killing a Sith who is trying to shoot you is not DS. But time after time choosing to attack and kill Sith (when viable smarter options are available) is bloodlust. Oh is that how the script works thanks for the info buddy. No it was fine for the rebels to blow up the Death Star. It would even have been fine for Jedi to blow up the Death Star. But that analogy is fallacious. So you'd like to sneak around? In a game that allows sneaking? But think KOTOR would have been boring that way? Thank goodness we are discussing KOTOR2 and the designers can implement more ways to make skills kewl and skillful play useful. Would you really miss out on all that "action." Oooooh I killed my millionth Sith trooper. I just looked at him funny and he fell over dead. Personally I think blowing up conduits, turning droids against them and just generally wreaking havoc through a console is tons more fun. Ranged weapons effectiveness as I said is totally irrelevant. All I will say is that for the last time this is not an FPS and combat focus was on the lightsaber. More powerful blasters would only have meant more damage when that bolt is deflected back. Pseudo turnbased is the best option for fighting there is in an RPG. Otherwise you end up with an action RPG which is fine but KOTOR was never meant to be an action RPG. I don't want "realism" in every facet of the game or realism just for realism's sake I want my actions/options to be realistic and SMART gameplay (not neccessarily realistic) to be rewarded. FPS are not more balanced. Take Halo. Fun game but even on legendary The fights are only challenging because they have so much hitpoints. You want every Sith trooper you face to have 200 hp? Too unrealistic. I think the success of Splinter Cell and MGS would prove you wrong. Not to mention every FPS game coming out is using lighting sources so you can hide in the dark and sneak. Intelligent gameplay is a lot more satisfying which means much more fun. I would not start a poll saying do you want to "sneak through every base in KOTOR2" because in some instances like the Star Forge assaulting it with massive backup is a viable option given your objectives. My poll would be "would you like stealth to be a viable gameplay alternative AND intelligent gameplay such as this to be as rewarding as combat?" I think the response would be positive. Often people when arguing try to take this route of I think most people agree with me. Don't go that route. This is just a friendly discussion on a silly message board. Just say what YOU think and start a poll to see how many agree. I haven't started a poll because I don't care if I am a minority. Is still a good discussion.

Could work well with an ancient Sith theme. Old school Sith seem much more powerful than their new futuristic counterparts. Might I suggest wielding a particularly nasty Sith blade instead of a lightsaber with that awesome armor?

Yes there is a big difference between self defense and killing. I am not advocating the removal of all combat at all. I just want combat to be realistic and LS players who actively seek it out should get DS points. Going into a Sith base guns blazing is asking for it. Do Qui-gon and Obi-wan run around the Trade Federation ship killing and destroying everything? No. They head for the bridge quickly and eventually end up retreating when faced with overwhelming odds. And they don't fight their way off the ship they sneak off. That's because even they are going to be overwhelmed by the security forces. I hate being able to walk into a heavily guarded Sith base on a Sith occupied world and killing everyone easily with no repercussions. I don't want to sneak past every fight in the game. I just want the times you do fight to make sense. For example. you would avoid combat and sneak and sabotage your way to the Governor's room then fight him in a much more epic difficult battle. Makes much more sense. Technically the firing codes should be changed if an enemy force breaches a secure area and kills the governor who has said codes. I prefer getting XP for nothing but quests. Not for skill usage OR combat. This makes everything you do equal. Lockpicking the door and sneaking by is just as good as killing the guard. All that matters is the quest is completed. It would NOT get tedious and boring to play intelligently instead of killing every single enemy you come across. Deus Ex for example is a lot of fun sneaking by guards, hacking security computers, dominating bots to kill for you. Notice that last part. Killing has it's place it just shouldn;t always be the best option for your player like it is in KOTOR. Anyways the idea IS that being LS demands a lot from the player thus making the DS more attractive. What are you really missing out on fighting some pathetic Sith troopers??? Limit the NECCESSARY fighting and make those fights much more challenging and memorable. Uh why do I have to deal with the issue of DS being more rewarding? it IS supposed to be more rewarding. Sneaking through a base avoiding detection is an action. Don't see why you equate combat with action. Its not cowardly to sneak. Obi-wan sneaks around the Death Star. Still kills a few guards but otherwise evades detection. It's intelligent. Not cowardly. A coward wouldn't be in the base in the first place. You think special forces troops assault an enemy compound full on or do they sneak in, achieve their objectives, and get the hell out? Killing everyone would help you slip down the DS path. If I were DMing I'd demand some increasingly good explanations for why they keep deciding they had to hack and slash 100 Sith troopers instead of sneaking out of the base so that no one would ever know they had even been there. Or why they keep choosing dialogue that they know is going to lead to a fight. A game is still fun. Asking the player to perform intelligently and think about their actions increases the interactivity and realism in a big way while keeping it fun. Now we finally see the problem. You are an FPSer. KOTOR is an RPG. RPGs should not be set up as FPS games. FPS games are certainly fun and have their place but they are very different from an RPG. Also KOTOR is not turnbased. You say the gameplay is terrible yet you seem to advocate the keeping of constant combat in unrealistic situations? Why? Perhaps the gameplay needs a change to become more enjoyable. Ranged weapon effectiveness is irrelevant to this topic. But let me remind you this is not an FPS.

Why shouldn't it? Who would really think the most viable option for getting through a Sith base is basically a full frontal assault killing everything that moves? It's ludicrous. It is after all an RPG not an FPS. It isn't even an action RPG. I am not saying combat shouldn't be allowed. Just that there should be realistic consequnces for it and it should be a more difficult way to do some things. Sometimes it may be easier. Like in FO2 you could kill T-ray or pay him to get your car back or bluff you were Bishop's representative. Combat was the easiest way obviously. But most times especially playing LS combat should be avoided and skillful smart play like this should be rewarded. This would make playing LS trickier and more difficult making the DS much more attractive.

Don't know how anyone can say skills weren't broken. Obsidian agrees and has already stated they are trying to make skills more useful. Making skills influence the workbench is a big step. The point is not to force you to use skills you don't have the point is to make NPCs like T3 useful and to make it so that combat is not always the most attractive and easiest way to do everything. Besides it only makes sense there should be times stealth is a neccessary part of your actions. Infiltrate a Sith base? No problem. Breaks out lightsaber slaughters everything in sight. After all that's what Obi-wan does when he has to infiltrate the Death Star right? There's no point to having skills if there arent times they are the right choice instead of combat. Combat should always be the default way to handle things but it should be the most difficult. There should be consequences for always coming in guns blazing.

Interesting.