Combat is now mostly a dull chore

[algroth]

 

 

But kudo's to you for being prescient

That's all I wanted buddy, that's all I wanted. =P

 

So just because you had a bad experience with certain individuals 3 months ago, you've condemned the entire user base of this forum for good and now attempt to use that as justification for hostile posting? I'm afraid that's not how it works. Chances are that you're largely talking to different people now. Also, "inferior intellects." lol.

?

 

This has nothing to do with comdemning anyone specific, and if you are feel you are being condemned that's completely on you as I never mentioned you or anyones names,

You stated that you "tried to be constructive 3 months ago and were shouted down by inferior intellects." Now, you're taking it out on people who had nothing to do with whatever problems you had 3 months ago. Yes, you are condemning the whole forum. I never said "anyone specific."

 

You think highly of yourself and obviously think you posses superior intelligence compared to most people, yet you fail to see that simple connection. You really need to be cut down to size.

Oh, they were the same way back when they made their post about the topic. You didn't agree with them back then? You were an intellectually challenged filthy casual responsible for the dumbing down of muh cRPGs. There was never any constructive criticism, just PCMR whining at its cartooniest.

 

Here is their initial topic, by the way, just so you can gauge how 'constructive' they actually were: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96466-why-the-hell-are-they-dumbing-down-the-game/

Edited May 23, 2018 by algroth

[PangaeaACDC]

I don't use level-scaling because I have always preferred to play the game the way the developers intended, and level scaling kind of removes the point about levelling up at all since you don't get a real benefit from doing so since all enemies 'level up' too.

 

That said, currently I'm pretty much selecting the whole group and targeting enemies one by one instead of using spells and abilities. Not always, but quite frequently. Not exactly a great situation, and I'm glad Obsidian are rebalancing the difficulty levels. Maybe it's an inadvertent consequence of all the people struggling with difficulty in the beta, which was due to being under-levelled in that particular area?

 

Currently I'm in that region, Tikaware + the gorgeous-looking desert/ruin area. We are level 15, so probably very over-levelled. But have not yet explored the top third of the world map, and the SE sector.

[pi2repsion]

That said, currently I'm pretty much selecting the whole group and targeting enemies one by one instead of using spells and abilities. Not always, but quite frequently. Not exactly a great situation, and I'm glad Obsidian are rebalancing the difficulty levels. Maybe it's an inadvertent consequence of all the people struggling with difficulty in the beta, which was due to being under-levelled in that particular area?

Nah, it is the direct consequence of Obsidian always erring on the side of caution where encounter difficulty is concerned and not having combat being tactically challenging as an important priority. It is simply not a strength of theirs.

 

For all the POE1 vs POE2 difficulty comparisons in this thread, it is worth remembering that POE1 Path of the Damned difficulty was also ridiculously easy for tactically adept players on game launch and that no changes to the game systems in patches changed that. The difference in this respect between the titles where POE2 is even easier is one of magnitude, not one of kind.

 

There were a few - a very few - encounters in POE1 designed to be challenging, and those that actually were could be counted on one hand, but mostly POTD encounters were not challenging at all for players who liked playing tactical games. That might seem a bit strange given how Pillars of Eternity and POTD was originally marketed in the kickstarter, but it fits Obsidian's track record perfectly; From their inception as an independent company they have made good-verging-on-great CRPGs with good worldbuilding and interesting stories, but not tactically challenging ones.

 

Even with Saywer copping to not properly balancing POE2 POTD before release because they ran out of time and would (naturally) prefer to spend it on bugfixing, and now talking about a difficulty rebalancing, there is no particular reason to expect that the current state of affairs where practically all encounters are a breeze to play through regardless of difficulty level will significantly change with the upcoming rebalance, because the subset of players that are interested in tactically challenging encounters in the first place (and many players are not) are most likely people who are also going to be pretty good at them, and Obsidian has never designed encounters with these people foremost in mind.

 

If Obsidian stays true to form, the best we can hope for is for a rebalance that makes combat tactically interesting for people who aren't particularly good at tactical games and less of a breeze for those that are.

 

 

EDIT: I don't mean to sound bitter here, though I guess it may come across that way. Just realistic. One has to accept Obsidian games for what they are, not what one would wish them to be.

Edited May 24, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Purudaya]

I don't use level-scaling because I have always preferred to play the game the way the developers intended, and level scaling kind of removes the point about levelling up at all since you don't get a real benefit from doing so since all enemies 'level up' too.

 

That said, currently I'm pretty much selecting the whole group and targeting enemies one by one instead of using spells and abilities. Not always, but quite frequently. Not exactly a great situation, and I'm glad Obsidian are rebalancing the difficulty levels. Maybe it's an inadvertent consequence of all the people struggling with difficulty in the beta, which was due to being under-levelled in that particular area?

 

Currently I'm in that region, Tikaware + the gorgeous-looking desert/ruin area. We are level 15, so probably very over-levelled. But have not yet explored the top third of the world map, and the SE sector.

 

Level scaling (at least in PoE2) doesn't mean that all enemies are matched 1:1 to your level. It means that, depending on your level, they are boosted a set number of levels above what they would have been without scaling. For example: if you enter a level 12 scene at level 18, a +4/-4 scaling system (which is what they're looking at implementing in the patch) would convert it to a level 16 scene. So it will still be possible to be over-levelled for content, just not as frequently/drastically so.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Purudaya

[dunehunter]

Hopefully the combat issue is easy to fix, based on its current states, I’m not gonna back the next pillar game.

[Answermancer]

 

 

 

Level scaling (at least in PoE2) doesn't mean that all enemies are matched 1:1 to your level. It means that, depending on your level, they are boosted a set number of levels above what they would have been without scaling. For example: if you enter a level 12 scene at level 18, a +4/-4 scaling system (which is what they're looking at implementing in the patch) would convert it to a level 16 scene. So it will still be possible to be over-levelled for content, just not as frequently/drastically so.

 

 

Yeah, that makes me interested in actually using it sometime. If every enemy was 1:1 I wouldn't like that, I need those ups and downs, and it would feel silly if enemies in the starting areas could scale up to level 20 or whatever if I left them alone until the end game.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

Problem is per encounter forces all fights to be made challenging as there no wearing down of the watcher or companions from one fight to next. Any fight that is not challenge just becomes meaningless trash fight with no real effects. How do you really balance a xaurip's with dragon, can't so either xaurip's becomes trash or dragon becomes underwhelming. 

 

Also with per encounter where is sweet spot, do make fights so challenging for few or do make sweet spot for many. Few will always want it be harder more difficult. Even many not all going want it same level. 

 

That's the limits of per encounter system people wanted.

 

That said I still think it should be done as choice at start per encounter or per rest let each person choose. I also think both systems need improvements and I also add in for both more options that effect difficulty allowing each to tailor game more for there own abilities.

[Saito Hikari]

I do enjoy the pace of PoE2 combat more than PoE1, despite the ease of it. The problem is, PoE2 fights do not appear to be tuned to the tools that the player gained in this game (the variety of unique weapons that can completely change builds, the empower system, and per-encounter spells). I get the impression they were tuned towards PoE1-style combat, before the changes to the combat system were made.

 

Indeed, the hardest fights I've encountered in PoE2 weren't hard for the reasons people think. They were hard because of external factors largely beyond the player's control (certain ship/scripted battles where my archer cipher MC got nuked immediately because the Watcher always starts in the front with no way to rearrange formation beforehand, and Fampyrs charming everyone in a game where most of the charm counters from the previous game no longer exist and the only real counter being a specific food dish, along with Charm Gaze possibly being bugged to have no discernible cast time).

 

It also doesn't help that the combat system was overhauled in such a way in a game where the focus on combat has been diminished greatly - many fights can be outright prevented either by stealth or dialogue options, and that's on top of the lower frequency of combat situations in the first place. One can compare the 'time spent in combat' statistic between both games to see this.

[geala]

I prefer the Deadfire combat over PoE1. Artificial micro-management resource restrictions like the double health system are not to my pleasure.

 

I'm strictly against changing the combat and empower mechanics fundamentally. I really like the possibility to refresh the combat resources for fights where you are in dire straits. And healing should stay the way it is.

 

I'm not a min-maxer or optimizer and my chars follow some rules, my ranger for example is from a primitive tribe, he doesn't use armor (he does not even wear clothes) and he only uses a bow, period. Or, I don't have a mage in my group because I don't like mages. So my group is not optimal and I had some really tough fights till now, although I only play on Veteran.

 

The current problem for me is that these tough fights were coupled to being underleveled. But that is only a number problem which should be solvable. For me the fights against two or three-skull enemies should be the "norm" for fights against enemies of the same level, on Veteran. So overall the game combat is a bit too easy, but not dull and a chore (I'd give this label to PoE1 combat).

[Ilyan]

 Empower should only allow increasing a single ability strength per combat, that's it (although even that may not be a good idea as you can just nuke encounters into fog of war with this). It's too much of a crutch and allows you almost infinite amount of buffs, heals, etc. compared to what enemies can bring to the table.

Easy... Make mobs have also the Empower.

[Dopsim]

 

 Empower should only allow increasing a single ability strength per combat, that's it (although even that may not be a good idea as you can just nuke encounters into fog of war with this). It's too much of a crutch and allows you almost infinite amount of buffs, heals, etc. compared to what enemies can bring to the table.

Easy... Make mobs have also the Empower.

 

You really think this dumbass AI will use it? Also kinda makes heros less special 

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

 

 

 Empower should only allow increasing a single ability strength per combat, that's it (although even that may not be a good idea as you can just nuke encounters into fog of war with this). It's too much of a crutch and allows you almost infinite amount of buffs, heals, etc. compared to what enemies can bring to the table.

Easy... Make mobs have also the Empower.

 

You really think this dumbass AI will use it? Also kinda makes heros less special 

 

 

Big giant outside temple last 1.5 secs if you hit him with 5 empowered abilities/spells, looked like interesting fight when seen him to.

[Dopsim]

 

 

 

 Empower should only allow increasing a single ability strength per combat, that's it (although even that may not be a good idea as you can just nuke encounters into fog of war with this). It's too much of a crutch and allows you almost infinite amount of buffs, heals, etc. compared to what enemies can bring to the table.

Easy... Make mobs have also the Empower.

 

You really think this dumbass AI will use it? Also kinda makes heros less special 

 

 

Big giant outside temple last 1.5 secs if you hit him with 5 empowered abilities/spells, looked like interesting fight when seen him to.

 

Giving him empower will not fix this. Make him stronger. 

[cokane]

I prefer the Deadfire combat over PoE1. Artificial micro-management resource restrictions like the double health system are not to my pleasure.

 

I'm strictly against changing the combat and empower mechanics fundamentally. I really like the possibility to refresh the combat resources for fights where you are in dire straits. And healing should stay the way it is.

 

I'm not a min-maxer or optimizer and my chars follow some rules, my ranger for example is from a primitive tribe, he doesn't use armor (he does not even wear clothes) and he only uses a bow, period. Or, I don't have a mage in my group because I don't like mages. So my group is not optimal and I had some really tough fights till now, although I only play on Veteran.

 

The current problem for me is that these tough fights were coupled to being underleveled. But that is only a number problem which should be solvable. For me the fights against two or three-skull enemies should be the "norm" for fights against enemies of the same level, on Veteran. So overall the game combat is a bit too easy, but not dull and a chore (I'd give this label to PoE1 combat).

 

People should get away from arguing whether certain systems are "artificial". It's a game, it's all artificial. There's nothing artificial about having spells per rest versus spells per encounter. The spells and the levels they sit on are all artificially generated. Nothing in this fantasy role-playing game is natural.

 

The question is whether certain systems make the game more fun. I understand that some people did not like some of the work you had to do in the original or in the BG games if you did not manage your party correctly. But I think the evidence is in. Giving the players too few restraints has ended up creating an incredibly easy game.

Edited June 1, 2018 by cokane

[SonicMage117]

It's a hard balance to find "satisfying combat", especially for a game such as rtwp rpg's where you can cheese your way to victory or your party becomes op rather quickly. Smarter devs have made interesting rpg's without combat, gone is the filler and filthy grind.

[PizzaSHARK]

The first thing they have to do is remove the ability to replenish resources in combat. Empower should only allow increasing a single ability strength per combat, that's it (although even that may not be a good idea as you can just nuke encounters into fog of war with this). It's too much of a crutch and allows you almost infinite amount of buffs, heals, etc. compared to what enemies can bring to the table.

 

Then lower the amount of your D&D4 power points you gain per level, as having so many makes everything absurd in the endgame.

 

Once that is done, one can design encounters around "beat that only using your 4 power points on everyone", without ability to replenish. Maybe allow more classes to replenish pp with effective actions in combat (like Barbarians can with their kits and Smash attack).

 

Also, nerf heals. They are simply too powerful now, a single dedicated healer can make whole party ignore all damage. Some points in Athletics give any character an oh**** button on a level of class based special abilities.

 

The long term drain in resources could come in using consumables. Although then there are some other problems, like the fact that you swim in money, especially later when you can sell 12 naga bows for 100k; and that consumable recipes are dumb as hell, like make le bomb out of stuff that is artifact upgrading tier and often lacks in game (vithrak brains for a single potion). But I guess you could just buy them and game is full of them so it's not a big deal.

 

I'd say the food is pretty ridiculous too, as eating rice bowl gives you more protection than wearing full plate but eh.

 

You're pretty much advocating turning everyone into auto-attacking bots.  The closest Deadfire comes to having tactical depth is deciding how and when to use your power points.  Emphasizing careful and considered use of power points is likely the best way to tweak and balance combat in such a way that player powers are constrained while simultaneously increasing depth.

 

 

Personally I'd favor a system where you don't have discrete resources, and instead just a total power points pool that grows at the same rate.  Do you spend your last 2 points on the Rogue ability, or spend 1 point to buff yourself with Frenzy or Disciplined Barrage?  I'd also cause all attack abilities to vary based on what you have equipped - they are Primary Attack if you are 2H, 1H, or S&B and cost 1 resource, or -1 resource compared to current costs.  They are Full Attack if you are TWS, and cost +1 points over their current costs.  This should hopefully balance out TWS dramatically out-performing other options due to basically getting to hit twice for 1 point with spammable tier 1 abilities, though I think TWS might also need like -1 penetration on both weapons as well.

 

The game engine cannot provide tactical depth, so we have to look elsewhere for it.

[Gregorovitch]

 

Qoted wrong post - don't know how to delete. Please ignore.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[Gregorovitch]

On paper, I agree entirely with the OP. In practice, I'm still only a few hours into the game, so I am waiting to see how it pans out. But it does seem to get rid of a lot of challenge, a sense of actually being on a dangerous adventure, a feeling that your decisions in combat actually matter.

 

Food is really funny - Pillars wanted to get rid of laborious pre-buffing, but food in POE1 was already extremely powerful if you bothered to spend time eating up for every fight. Now you have so much food you could make a cooking minigame out of the assets!

 

 

 

I prefer the new combat a lot. I see were you coming from and was worried too when they announced the removal of health/endurance mechanic, but playing it I prefer this so much. It was a chore for me before to make every encounter as efficient as possible. Sure many might have fun with this, but I prefer fewer but more difficult encounters that challenge me, instead of having a challenge because I don't want to rest or backtrack.

 

I think the gap between players here is so big it's difficult to bridge. A lot of players, as you say, find it a 'chore' to prepare for combat, use their resources efficiently, and fight a big challenge every single fight. I don't say this as an insult - it's not my business to judge how you play. But as someone who gets incredibly bored and frustrated when I realise I could just win these fights not using half the available resources or spamming left click, I feel like my style of play has not been served well by these changes. To me, "making every encounter efficient" is the fun, and without it, I feel like I'm playing chess against a 3 year old and wondering why I'm bothering. Again, that describes a certain group of players, who are no more or less legitimate than others.

 

I do wish they made the game easier to mod on this front, i.e. easy to edit variables for things like enemy HP, empowers / power sources per level, things like that.

 

I agree that this gap, this divide, between players is indeed a very serious and problematic issue.

 

Everything the OP said is pretty much true for me. There are a few hard fights (if you happen to take them on at the right time) on PotD but only a few of them. Otherwise you are just going through the motions to easily dispatch whatyever is in front of you. One well placed empowered delayed fireball or a an empowered returning storm is pretty much sufficient to settle any encounter in the game. And you can just roll on and do it again. If necessary. And it usually isn'ty necessary.

 

I think there is a view that people who harp back to limited camping supplies, vancian casting systems and endurance/health splits are a small vocal minority of old timer IE fans that are overwhelmingly under-representative of the wider player community is something that needs carefull examination becasue I am not sure it fits the facts.

 

* People railed over the system in PoE1 saying how tedious and restrictive and annoying it was

* PoE1 is considereed a classic and sold 1m+

 

* Tyranny went for a cooldown/no friendly fire system presumably addressing this

* Tyranny is not considered a classic and did not do that well

 

* Deadfire has gone for something inbetween being seither the one nor the other

* Deadfire is not (so far) being recieved as a classic and is not doing well

 

What is one to make of this? Could it be that what people say on the forums is at odds with their actual purchasing decisions and playtime?

 

I will venture a hypothesis:

 

No matter what people say on the forums, however much they moan about restrictive casting and resting etc, in, for example, PoE1, what people actually want and expect from a game like this is a number of serious, deep, lengthy and especially dangerous dungeons to explore (dungeon in it's widest sense, levels can be above ground or whatever, but at least some proper classic dungeon delving of substance). Especially dangerous dungeons, The sort that engenders feelings  of palpable dread as to what might lurk around the next corner or behind that door. That a key element of creating this sense of danger is that the dungeon (or level) is sufficiently long that once you get far enough in you get to genuinely feel like you actually might not make it out in one piece.

 

That if they don't get that sense of danger then they are not happy, even if they don't exactly know why (i.e. that the removal of casting/resting restrictions etc is what done it), and as a result will complain even more bitterly than they did about the restrictions in PoE1.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[ThacoBell]

* People railed over the system in PoE1 saying how tedious and restrictive and annoying it was

* PoE1 is considereed a classic and sold 1m+

 

* Tyranny went for a cooldown/no friendly fire system presumably addressing this

* Tyranny is not considered a classic and did not do that well

 

* Deadfire has gone for something inbetween being seither the one nor the other

* Deadfire is not (so far) being recieved as a classic and is not doing well

Those are some VERY sweeping results for what amounts to a single bullet point from very large games.

I mean, I could just as easily go:
*PoE1 had no ocean and is considered a classic
*PoE2 has an ocean and is not considered a classic.

It gives no meaningful insight into what makes these games successful. FWIW, from a pure mechanics stadnpoint, I am enjoying PoE2 FAR more than PoE1. In 1, I put up with the fights to get to that sweet sweet character interaction and story. In PoE2, I am actually enjoying fights when they come my way.

[JFutral]

FWIW, from a pure mechanics stadnpoint, I am enjoying PoE2 FAR more than PoE1. In 1, I put up with the fights to get to that sweet sweet character interaction and story. In PoE2, I am actually enjoying fights when they come my way.

 

I put up with the fights in both to get their sweet armor and weapons! 

 

Joe

[cokane]

What is one to make of this? Could it be that what people say on the forums is at odds with their actual purchasing decisions and playtime?

 

I will venture a hypothesis:

 

No matter what people say on the forums, however much they moan about restrictive casting and resting etc, in, for example, PoE1, what people actually want and expect from a game like this is a number of serious, deep, lengthy and especially dangerous dungeons to explore (dungeon in it's widest sense, levels can be above ground or whatever, but at least some proper classic dungeon delving of substance). Especially dangerous dungeons, The sort that engenders feelings  of palpable dread as to what might lurk around the next corner or behind that door. That a key element of creating this sense of danger is that the dungeon (or level) is sufficiently long that once you get far enough in you get to genuinely feel like you actually might not make it out in one piece.

 

That if they don't get that sense of danger then they are not happy, even if they don't exactly know why (i.e. that the removal of casting/resting restrictions etc is what done it), and as a result will complain even more bitterly than they did about the restrictions in PoE1.

 

 

Very well said. I think some folks may enjoy Deadfire on their first playthrough or for its first dozen hours, but the game, as constituted, lacks the depth of the original in its combat/dungeon crawling experience. There is a lot to like about Deadfire outside of the combat, don't get me wrong. But, so much of the game and the character building revolves around how you perform in combat and dungeon crawls. And, that stuff just doesn't exist at the level of previous classics of the genre.

 

I think as players attempt second playthroughs and witness how the game plays after the DLC's and likely increased levels, more and more folks will come around to seeing that the combat and the dungeons are just a shallow experience in Deadfire. I really hope Obsidian learns from this in a possible PoE3 (or, my ideal, a separate Eora set RPG).

[ThacoBell]

 

What is one to make of this? Could it be that what people say on the forums is at odds with their actual purchasing decisions and playtime?

 

I will venture a hypothesis:

 

No matter what people say on the forums, however much they moan about restrictive casting and resting etc, in, for example, PoE1, what people actually want and expect from a game like this is a number of serious, deep, lengthy and especially dangerous dungeons to explore (dungeon in it's widest sense, levels can be above ground or whatever, but at least some proper classic dungeon delving of substance). Especially dangerous dungeons, The sort that engenders feelings  of palpable dread as to what might lurk around the next corner or behind that door. That a key element of creating this sense of danger is that the dungeon (or level) is sufficiently long that once you get far enough in you get to genuinely feel like you actually might not make it out in one piece.

 

That if they don't get that sense of danger then they are not happy, even if they don't exactly know why (i.e. that the removal of casting/resting restrictions etc is what done it), and as a result will complain even more bitterly than they did about the restrictions in PoE1.

 

 

Very well said. I think some folks may enjoy Deadfire on their first playthrough or for its first dozen hours, but the game, as constituted, lacks the depth of the original in its combat/dungeon crawling experience. There is a lot to like about Deadfire outside of the combat, don't get me wrong. But, so much of the game and the character building revolves around how you perform in combat and dungeon crawls. And, that stuff just doesn't exist at the level of previous classics of the genre.

 

I think as players attempt second playthroughs and witness how the game plays after the DLC's and likely increased levels, more and more folks will come around to seeing that the combat and the dungeons are just a shallow experience in Deadfire. I really hope Obsidian learns from this in a possible PoE3 (or, my ideal, a separate Eora set RPG).

 

I dunno. I've beaten PoE1 4 times and I get tired of the combat really quickly now.

[cokane]

I dunno. I've beaten PoE1 4 times and I get tired of the combat really quickly now.

 

 

I think being motivated enough to complete four playthroughs speaks for itself.

[Answermancer]

But I think the evidence is in. Giving the players too few restraints has ended up creating an incredibly easy game.

 

Or the game is just not balanced at all on higher difficulties, and the mechanics are not the issue.

 

This isn't evidence of anything, you just prefer per-rest attrition and are pretending like that the current difficulty of the game supports your preference.

 

Everything the OP said is pretty much true for me. There are a few hard fights (if you happen to take them on at the right time) on PotD but only a few of them. Otherwise you are just going through the motions to easily dispatch whatyever is in front of you. One well placed empowered delayed fireball or a an empowered returning storm is pretty much sufficient to settle any encounter in the game. And you can just roll on and do it again. If necessary. And it usually isn'ty necessary.

 

I think it's interesting how many people in this thread act say things like "one empowered fireball is all it takes to wipe out most encounters" and then go on to blame the per-encounter system and lack of rest attrition for this problem.

 

Isn't the real problem that Empower is too powerful? Why isn't your supported solution to get rid of Empower and resting entirely?

 

Personally, I think that's a much better solution, if Empower can't be balanced (and maybe it can't).

Edited June 1, 2018 by Answermancer

[ThacoBell]

 

I dunno. I've beaten PoE1 4 times and I get tired of the combat really quickly now.

 

 

I think being motivated enough to complete four playthroughs speaks for itself.

 

Yeah, the writing for PoE1 is some of the best I've ever had the pleasure of reading in a game. I play it DESPITE the combat system. Not because of.