Why are half the companions trying to get in my pants?

[drael6464]

 

The first part of this post is fair enough. It doesn't really invalidate these being topics that might rile people up on both sides of the political fence, but it's fair enough, and if that's what they wanted to do, that's fair and well.

 

As I said, I enjoyed the game, and these felt, as a whole (mostly), more as options or side elements than anything central.  

 

I don't think I am off base in assuming who the ordinary person is, or the typical rpg gamer (which is a crowd that is probably more diverse than the mainstream but still has it's demographic averages), but perhaps I am in who the target audience is.  Certainly pillars of eternity isn't for the proper mainstream - it's not an action RPG full of gore, it's a story based tale thats a bit niche. I think probably what's happening here is that because obsidian work with backers, they feel a duty and desire to please them as much as possible, rather than the typical commercial set-up of trying to appeal to a larger demographic. 

 

If your average gamer is what you say it is, then by default your average backer would be similar purely by proportion. 

Unless of course this has nothing to do with "pleasing the backers" and more to do with the direction the independent studio is taking. The first pillars didn't have and never promised such content, it was targeting lovers of Infinity engine games, and yet it beat all stretch goals. I don't see why the situation should be different with the second game, and why it suddenly "caters to a certain demographic".

 

 

I assume the demographic for this game's backers is similar to the average gamer (well with the bent of classic rpg, which will include more women and more older gents - same as with the pen and paper crowd, classic rpg fans are a slightly more various assortment).

 

But what I meant is, by being directly involved with the backer audience, they have more of a sense of "oh we need to please everyone" (ie not just the main demographic), because of that engagement - which is pretty starkly contrasted with how businesses usually do business, which is to achieve a large demographic audience, by pleasing that primary demographic, with other audiences being somewhat secondary. This direct engagement with audience, not just for suggestions and criticisms, but as a dependence for funding is novel and bound to have some impact on the creative process. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

 Certainly you are right in the poe1 was "establishing itself" and thus more based on the classic genre, and classic storytelling, and this might just be, as you say the direction the studio wants to take. Or it could be a mixture of our two thoughts. 

[marimo]

 

The first part of this post is fair enough. It doesn't really invalidate these being topics that might rile people up on both sides of the political fence, but it's fair enough, and if that's what they wanted to do, that's fair and well.

 

As I said, I enjoyed the game, and these felt, as a whole (mostly), more as options or side elements than anything central.  

 

I don't think I am off base in assuming who the ordinary person is, or the typical rpg gamer (which is a crowd that is probably more diverse than the mainstream but still has it's demographic averages), but perhaps I am in who the target audience is.  Certainly pillars of eternity isn't for the proper mainstream - it's not an action RPG full of gore, it's a story based tale thats a bit niche.

 

I think probably what's happening here is that because obsidian work with backers, they feel a duty and desire to please them as much as possible, rather than the typical commercial set-up of trying to appeal to a larger demographic. And the crowd that does play rpgs, rather than shooters etc is a tad more diverse than that demographic, and so obsidian wants to please everyone in that group rather than the bulk of them. And likely yes, the coders are reasonably diverse too. So they decided to go in a direction that was influenced by that backer process.

 

It's a bit of a contrast with poe1 though - the animancy plot for example. 

 

As I said, I'm not going to tell anyone how to create, as if they had to listen.

 

I personally thought it could have gone in a more adult type direction, especially for a pirate setting. Kinda safe in some ways. And the main arc, didn't have a character conflict - you had a slight influence on the ending and that's it. You almost could have not been there. The broader plot was well connected to the main one. There was art in there. I loved the game, but there are those complaining about the writing, and I can kind of see why.

 

But I did play the game twice, so it's definately fun, and better in many ways than the first. But perhaps the complaint of some people (and not really me, because I did enjoy the game thoroughly), is it might feel like in trying to cater for everyone that they (whomever they are) weren't catered to. And maybe they are just used to being the focus demographic historically for these sort of games. Which isn't invalid, but it's also up to the creators whom they serve. 

 

I guess, that this isn't really a power fantasy, or hero's journey and more as you suggest, more of an idealistic or optimistic tale. Different groups gets along, gender and sexual equality, the pirates have moral standards, everything has clean moral lines, commerce is evil etc and apart from the cliffhanger, everyone sails off into the sunset.

I did at one point feel like I should empathise with the lizard people for quasi-environmental reasons. Which isn't at all typical for a rpg game. And it has those themes of progressive leaning films of being anti-traditional, and pro 'progress' too. So maybe all that was the intent, deliberate. It certainly was packed with subtle political innuendo, whether than was intentional or just a product of the creative teams bent.  It's certainly the creators right to express what ever ideas they wish, and the audiences right to make what they will of it. 

 

So if I'm understanding you correctly, your argument is that Obsidian is trying to cater to their backer audience but is misguided as to who their audience is and what they want? I'm not sure what you mean by a more "adult" direction either unless you mean that including women, LGBT people and people of color as oppressed groups would make the setting grittier and therefore less "safe".

 

I also disagree that the story is idealistic or optimistic, firstly because it has variable endings, but more importantly because bigotry, caste systems, slavery, colonialism, and all sorts of other gritty elements exist in the setting, they just don't affect the same groups who are overwhelmingly affected by this stuff in real life. Not to mention that the resolution to most of the conflicts in the quests are firmly in morally grey territory. Your other points about the writing are valid but seem irrelevant to the argument you were making, at least as I understood it. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by marimo

[drael6464]

 

 

The first part of this post is fair enough. It doesn't really invalidate these being topics that might rile people up on both sides of the political fence, but it's fair enough, and if that's what they wanted to do, that's fair and well.

 

As I said, I enjoyed the game, and these felt, as a whole (mostly), more as options or side elements than anything central.  

 

I don't think I am off base in assuming who the ordinary person is, or the typical rpg gamer (which is a crowd that is probably more diverse than the mainstream but still has it's demographic averages), but perhaps I am in who the target audience is.  Certainly pillars of eternity isn't for the proper mainstream - it's not an action RPG full of gore, it's a story based tale thats a bit niche.

 

I think probably what's happening here is that because obsidian work with backers, they feel a duty and desire to please them as much as possible, rather than the typical commercial set-up of trying to appeal to a larger demographic. And the crowd that does play rpgs, rather than shooters etc is a tad more diverse than that demographic, and so obsidian wants to please everyone in that group rather than the bulk of them. And likely yes, the coders are reasonably diverse too. So they decided to go in a direction that was influenced by that backer process.

 

It's a bit of a contrast with poe1 though - the animancy plot for example. 

 

As I said, I'm not going to tell anyone how to create, as if they had to listen.

 

I personally thought it could have gone in a more adult type direction, especially for a pirate setting. Kinda safe in some ways. And the main arc, didn't have a character conflict - you had a slight influence on the ending and that's it. You almost could have not been there. The broader plot was well connected to the main one. There was art in there. I loved the game, but there are those complaining about the writing, and I can kind of see why.

 

But I did play the game twice, so it's definately fun, and better in many ways than the first. But perhaps the complaint of some people (and not really me, because I did enjoy the game thoroughly), is it might feel like in trying to cater for everyone that they (whomever they are) weren't catered to. And maybe they are just used to being the focus demographic historically for these sort of games. Which isn't invalid, but it's also up to the creators whom they serve. 

 

I guess, that this isn't really a power fantasy, or hero's journey and more as you suggest, more of an idealistic or optimistic tale. Different groups gets along, gender and sexual equality, the pirates have moral standards, everything has clean moral lines, commerce is evil etc and apart from the cliffhanger, everyone sails off into the sunset.

I did at one point feel like I should empathise with the lizard people for quasi-environmental reasons. Which isn't at all typical for a rpg game. And it has those themes of progressive leaning films of being anti-traditional, and pro 'progress' too. So maybe all that was the intent, deliberate. It certainly was packed with subtle political innuendo, whether than was intentional or just a product of the creative teams bent.  It's certainly the creators right to express what ever ideas they wish, and the audiences right to make what they will of it. 

 

So if I'm understanding you correctly, your argument is that Obsidian is trying to cater to their backer audience but is misguided as to who their audience is and what they want? I'm not sure what you mean by a more "adult" direction either unless you mean that including women, LGBT people and people of color as oppressed groups would make the setting grittier and therefore less "safe".

 

I also disagree that the story is idealistic or optimistic, firstly because it has variable endings, but more importantly because bigotry, caste systems, slavery, colonialism, and all sorts of other gritty elements exist in the setting, they just don't affect the same groups who are overwhelmingly affected by this stuff in real life. Not to mention that the resolution to most of the conflicts in the quests are firmly in morally grey territory. Your other points about the writing are valid but seem irrelevant to the argument you were making, at least as I understood it. 

 

 

I don't think I was making an argument, just sharing my thoughts.

 

With the backer thing, I was just saying that "trying to please everyone" might be a tendancy that direct engagement and dependence on crowdfunding could produce, whereas in a conventional art as commerce company, you would look to your major demographics rather than trying to please everyone at once. IDK, if this is true or not. But it seems like a reasonable, logical possibility. Much like direct engagement and dependence on your consumers as a salesperson would give you a less detached view than being a CEO (as well as a more detailed picture)

 

My comment on "more adult" was really just a seperate opinion. The first game kind of broke ground by having a fair bit of swearing etc, and not being mainstream or under the control of a distribution company seems like an ideal time to go full game of thrones - and have gore, sex, swearing, drug use as central elements in the main story. Whilst there are things like slavery in the game, and caste systems, it's not super punchy. Some of it is. I did like the sense of desperation in that poor distrinct. That seemed colourful, and compelling. The miai quest had some punch too. 

 

Perhaps you are right though in your statement about optimism - there are plenty of darker themes in the game, and some of them are quite compelling. And it is probably safer using species as a metaphor for race than actually using race (not safer as in bad, safer as in a smarter commercial choice, less divisive way to handle the same topics). There is certainly some optimism in the plot though, it's not really dark or optimistic. Sort of a mixture. Some of the gods rants are a tad bleak. 

 

When it comes to adult, IDK, I look at something like "black sails". for comparison here on the pirate setting. The social taboo in that plotline (outside of the pirate community) for the main characters gay relationship was very compelling. The grit of the violence and betrayal, the greed. I guess this is not typically, what crpgs do, this whole prestige TV style grit, but it would IMO, be fun to see. To be visceral, such a story would need to be more than words on a screen though - it would need to be imagery at least, something with a more visual/sonic punch. Emotive. 

 

Fantasy is a traditionally more optimistic and family friendly genre. Game of thrones/fire and ice has shown us, that it doesn't have to be. I just wonder what a story of betrayal, scheming, affairs, war would look like in a crpg.

 

I guess such a game would be slightly less divine/magic oriented, and probably need to be more action/difficulty oriented. Not exactly the same kind of game, but a story rich arpg with adult themes, meaningful choices and a sprinkle of moral greyness, could really push an envelope in gaming. Put in some saucey storylines and place some battles in the centre of an epic battlefield.  It would be very interesting to see conflict of that scale in this unique setting too. But as I say, maybe that would be a different game altogether.  

Edited May 27, 2018 by drael6464

[Celan]

Romance in PC CRPG is crap shocker. They should have stuck to their guns and told the partisan minority to keep writing their own fanfiction. I know there's a very passionate little group of players that like the romances but being vocal doesn't make you a majority.

 

They're terrible, they've always been terrible. It's not the writers fault, either, it's just that real romance doesn't happen in the space of five to ten scripted multiple choice conversations. You're never going to get real depth and feeling in that format, you're only ever going to get tacky cheese. That's exactly the argument Josh and Co used to exclude them in the first game and they were dead right to do it.

 

Should have stuck to their guns. That said, they're easy to ignore I suppose so if it makes people happy then so be it. But don't complain when you finally do get romance but it's not quite good enough.

It was very easy to avoid this trap by having the previous companions be romanceable, when there was history and some basis for trust and friendship. At least it appears we got that with Aloth.

[marimo]

I don't think I was making an argument, just sharing my thoughts.

 

With the backer thing, I was just saying that "trying to please everyone" might be a tendancy that direct engagement and dependence on crowdfunding could produce, whereas in a conventional art as commerce company, you would look to your major demographics rather than trying to please everyone at once. IDK, if this is true or not. But it seems like a reasonable, logical possibility. Much like direct engagement and dependence on your consumers as a salesperson would give you a less detached view than being a CEO (as well as a more detailed picture)

 

My comment on "more adult" was really just a seperate opinion. The first game kind of broke ground by having a fair bit of swearing etc, and not being mainstream or under the control of a distribution company seems like an ideal time to go full game of thrones - and have gore, sex, swearing, drug use as central elements in the main story. Whilst there are things like slavery in the game, and caste systems, it's not super punchy. Some of it is. I did like the sense of desperation in that poor distrinct. That seemed colourful, and compelling. The miai quest had some punch too. 

 

Perhaps you are right though in your statement about optimism - there are plenty of darker themes in the game, and some of them are quite compelling. And it is probably safer using species as a metaphor for race than actually using race (not safer as in bad, safer as in a smarter commercial choice, less divisive way to handle the same topics). There is certainly some optimism in the plot though, it's not really dark or optimistic. Sort of a mixture. Some of the gods rants are a tad bleak. 

 

When it comes to adult, IDK, I look at something like "black sails". for comparison here on the pirate setting. The social taboo in that plotline (outside of the pirate community) for the main characters gay relationship was very compelling. The grit of the violence and betrayal, the greed. I guess this is not typically, what crpgs do, this whole prestige TV style grit, but it would IMO, be fun to see. To be visceral, such a story would need to be more than words on a screen though - it would need to be imagery at least, something with a more visual/sonic punch. Emotive. 

 

Fantasy is a traditionally more optimistic and family friendly genre. Game of thrones/fire and ice has shown us, that it doesn't have to be. I just wonder what a story of betrayal, scheming, affairs, war would look like in a crpg.

 

I guess such a game would be slightly less divine/magic oriented, and probably need to be more action/difficulty oriented. Not exactly the same kind of game, but a story rich arpg with adult themes, meaningful choices and a sprinkle of moral greyness, could really push an envelope in gaming. Put in some saucey storylines and place some battles in the centre of an epic battlefield.  It would be very interesting to see conflict of that scale in this unique setting too. But as I say, maybe that would be a different game altogether.  

 

It seems like you are operating under certain assumptions that I don't agree with. I don't agree that gods or magic make a story less dark or gritty. Less grounded, sure, but you can have dark or light, mature or immature, stories with magic. I also don't think that so-called "adult" content e.g. sex, cursing, violence, drug use is diametrically opposed to progressive values. It's about how those things are presented within the story. You can write a progressive story that takes place in a very bigoted world, it depends on whether that content is presented critically or uncritically, and whether it is gratuitous or purposeful, and if it is purposeful, then what message it's conveying.

Edited May 27, 2018 by marimo

[drael6464]

 

I don't think I was making an argument, just sharing my thoughts.

 

With the backer thing, I was just saying that "trying to please everyone" might be a tendancy that direct engagement and dependence on crowdfunding could produce, whereas in a conventional art as commerce company, you would look to your major demographics rather than trying to please everyone at once. IDK, if this is true or not. But it seems like a reasonable, logical possibility. Much like direct engagement and dependence on your consumers as a salesperson would give you a less detached view than being a CEO (as well as a more detailed picture)

 

My comment on "more adult" was really just a seperate opinion. The first game kind of broke ground by having a fair bit of swearing etc, and not being mainstream or under the control of a distribution company seems like an ideal time to go full game of thrones - and have gore, sex, swearing, drug use as central elements in the main story. Whilst there are things like slavery in the game, and caste systems, it's not super punchy. Some of it is. I did like the sense of desperation in that poor distrinct. That seemed colourful, and compelling. The miai quest had some punch too. 

 

Perhaps you are right though in your statement about optimism - there are plenty of darker themes in the game, and some of them are quite compelling. And it is probably safer using species as a metaphor for race than actually using race (not safer as in bad, safer as in a smarter commercial choice, less divisive way to handle the same topics). There is certainly some optimism in the plot though, it's not really dark or optimistic. Sort of a mixture. Some of the gods rants are a tad bleak. 

 

When it comes to adult, IDK, I look at something like "black sails". for comparison here on the pirate setting. The social taboo in that plotline (outside of the pirate community) for the main characters gay relationship was very compelling. The grit of the violence and betrayal, the greed. I guess this is not typically, what crpgs do, this whole prestige TV style grit, but it would IMO, be fun to see. To be visceral, such a story would need to be more than words on a screen though - it would need to be imagery at least, something with a more visual/sonic punch. Emotive. 

 

Fantasy is a traditionally more optimistic and family friendly genre. Game of thrones/fire and ice has shown us, that it doesn't have to be. I just wonder what a story of betrayal, scheming, affairs, war would look like in a crpg.

 

I guess such a game would be slightly less divine/magic oriented, and probably need to be more action/difficulty oriented. Not exactly the same kind of game, but a story rich arpg with adult themes, meaningful choices and a sprinkle of moral greyness, could really push an envelope in gaming. Put in some saucey storylines and place some battles in the centre of an epic battlefield.  It would be very interesting to see conflict of that scale in this unique setting too. But as I say, maybe that would be a different game altogether.  

 

It seems like you are operating under certain assumptions that I don't agree with. I don't agree that gods or magic make a story less dark or gritty. Less grounded, sure, but you can have dark or light, mature or immature, stories with magic. I also don't think that so-called "adult" content e.g. sex, cursing, violence, drug use is diametrically opposed to progressive values. It's about how those things are presented within the story. You can write a progressive story that takes place in a very bigoted world, it depends on whether that content is presented critically or uncritically, and whether it is gratuitous or purposeful, and if it is purposeful, then what message it's conveying.

 

 

You still seem to be confusing and conflating two completely seperate things that I was saying. (Progressive lean versus my idea of going gritty, which is entirely seperate and unrelated)

 

Perhaps a story can be gritty with magic or gods, but it's harder. If you can resurrect people, it tends to lower the stakes. This is why gritty stories tend to take place in low magic, or harder sci-fi environments - the idea is with a gritty story is that it's relatively easy to die, and at least almost impossible to undo. 

 

A good example might be game of thrones. They have gods, the gods do things. They have magic. But its rare, comes with a price and the will of the gods is impossible to predict. So people have been resurrected, but you could never do so reliably. 

 

I completely agree that progressive storylines can be gritty or dark. The AO has some, it's also supernatural and its very dark. 

[Katarack21]

 

 

I don't think I was making an argument, just sharing my thoughts.

 

With the backer thing, I was just saying that "trying to please everyone" might be a tendancy that direct engagement and dependence on crowdfunding could produce, whereas in a conventional art as commerce company, you would look to your major demographics rather than trying to please everyone at once. IDK, if this is true or not. But it seems like a reasonable, logical possibility. Much like direct engagement and dependence on your consumers as a salesperson would give you a less detached view than being a CEO (as well as a more detailed picture)

 

My comment on "more adult" was really just a seperate opinion. The first game kind of broke ground by having a fair bit of swearing etc, and not being mainstream or under the control of a distribution company seems like an ideal time to go full game of thrones - and have gore, sex, swearing, drug use as central elements in the main story. Whilst there are things like slavery in the game, and caste systems, it's not super punchy. Some of it is. I did like the sense of desperation in that poor distrinct. That seemed colourful, and compelling. The miai quest had some punch too. 

 

Perhaps you are right though in your statement about optimism - there are plenty of darker themes in the game, and some of them are quite compelling. And it is probably safer using species as a metaphor for race than actually using race (not safer as in bad, safer as in a smarter commercial choice, less divisive way to handle the same topics). There is certainly some optimism in the plot though, it's not really dark or optimistic. Sort of a mixture. Some of the gods rants are a tad bleak. 

 

When it comes to adult, IDK, I look at something like "black sails". for comparison here on the pirate setting. The social taboo in that plotline (outside of the pirate community) for the main characters gay relationship was very compelling. The grit of the violence and betrayal, the greed. I guess this is not typically, what crpgs do, this whole prestige TV style grit, but it would IMO, be fun to see. To be visceral, such a story would need to be more than words on a screen though - it would need to be imagery at least, something with a more visual/sonic punch. Emotive. 

 

Fantasy is a traditionally more optimistic and family friendly genre. Game of thrones/fire and ice has shown us, that it doesn't have to be. I just wonder what a story of betrayal, scheming, affairs, war would look like in a crpg.

 

I guess such a game would be slightly less divine/magic oriented, and probably need to be more action/difficulty oriented. Not exactly the same kind of game, but a story rich arpg with adult themes, meaningful choices and a sprinkle of moral greyness, could really push an envelope in gaming. Put in some saucey storylines and place some battles in the centre of an epic battlefield.  It would be very interesting to see conflict of that scale in this unique setting too. But as I say, maybe that would be a different game altogether.  

 

It seems like you are operating under certain assumptions that I don't agree with. I don't agree that gods or magic make a story less dark or gritty. Less grounded, sure, but you can have dark or light, mature or immature, stories with magic. I also don't think that so-called "adult" content e.g. sex, cursing, violence, drug use is diametrically opposed to progressive values. It's about how those things are presented within the story. You can write a progressive story that takes place in a very bigoted world, it depends on whether that content is presented critically or uncritically, and whether it is gratuitous or purposeful, and if it is purposeful, then what message it's conveying.

 

A good example might be game of thrones. They have gods, the gods do things.

Well...various people do various magical things and then claim it was some god or other working through them. Whether it really actually is a god working their will or not is considerably less clear.

[Noctoi]

 

 

Ah, yes. There is nothing I love seeing more in my fantasy games then reflections of reality. Well, except for the magic. And dragons. And sexy talking swords. I mean, those are all fine, but I definitely draw the line at bisexuals. Like, a society thats not hung up on gender? Well, that just is taking things too far. 

I see this tired old argument is very popular with you guys  . I'll humor you once more - sexual relationships are relateable to the real world and people can't help by draw parallels and conclude that a dense congregation of LGBTs in a small group is not normal (and don't go with "LGBT circles attract" theory again, it's still not normal for a lot of people). Nobody can relate truly magical and fantastical stuff you mention to anything in the real world, so it doesn't break anybody's suspense of disbelief when we play or read fantasy, because we just accept it as imagined fiction. But you can't simply make people erase the real world parallels from their minds, so they won't treat "everyone is LGBT in this world" as acceptable imaginary fantasy.

 

 

Honey, sweetheart, I didn't say LGBT circles attract (although they do). I said a lot of my friends and acquaintances were not straight cuz Queer people are not as rare as you seem to believe. Maybe if you weren't so obviously uncomfortable by bisexuals, more people would be willing to come out to you. 

 

But really, this is the same tired argument you always hear from racists, sexists, and homophobes. "This FANTASY world is based on medieval Europe so why is there so many black people? Its ~unrealistic~", or "I can accept dragons but its ~unrealistic~ for there to be female warriors", and so on and so on (even though POC's and women were a lot more abundant throughout history then those ppl believe). The issue isn't that it has a real world parallel, but that some people are in denial about their own bias. God. How many times have dudes excused Red Sanja's outfit on the basis on "its fantasy", but when it comes to the gays suddenly we gotta be "realistic".

Everyone has a different line for how far they can suspend their disbelieves when it comes to fantasy settings. You should look deep within yourself and ask why you chose to end yours at bisexual people.       

 

I wish I could hug/high five you (which ever you prefer!) and gift you an entire internet worth of virtual TimTams. Thank you. <3

[Noctoi]

 

Five out of seven companions are bisexual. That is THE majority. The majority of what?

You are dismissing all the other people in the game just so you can make that statement.

No, they are not dismissing all the other people in the game. What they find difficult to believe is that you could randomly end up in a group where 5 out of 7 people would be bisexual. That just seems extremely unlikely is all (though I guess it's still better than 5 playersexual characters, which they are not).

 

Uhhh, I work in a VERY mainstream clinic... none of the employees know each other outside the clinic. Of the 10 employees there, 2 are male and gay, one is female and gay, one is in a happily open marriage and considers herself "ethically non-monogamous", and two  of us are bi. Additionally, one of the receptionists considers herself bi-curious, but she is married to a man, and another receptionist has a gay son and two lesbian nieces. 

 

Which is not to say that I think the romances are stellar examples of brilliant writing... 

 

We're just not as rare as people think... and coincidences can happen

Edited May 28, 2018 by Noctoi

[Noctoi]

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

[marimo]

You still seem to be confusing and conflating two completely seperate things that I was saying. (Progressive lean versus my idea of going gritty, which is entirely seperate and unrelated)

 

Perhaps a story can be gritty with magic or gods, but it's harder. If you can resurrect people, it tends to lower the stakes. This is why gritty stories tend to take place in low magic, or harder sci-fi environments - the idea is with a gritty story is that it's relatively easy to die, and at least almost impossible to undo. 

 

A good example might be game of thrones. They have gods, the gods do things. They have magic. But its rare, comes with a price and the will of the gods is impossible to predict. So people have been resurrected, but you could never do so reliably. 

 

I completely agree that progressive storylines can be gritty or dark. The AO has some, it's also supernatural and its very dark. 

 

Magic and resurrection in GoT is really not all that rare in the story itself. It's established that it's rare in the world as a whole and that the characters are important people and therefore outliers, but really there's a lot of magic going on there. 

[drael6464]

 

You still seem to be confusing and conflating two completely seperate things that I was saying. (Progressive lean versus my idea of going gritty, which is entirely seperate and unrelated)

 

Perhaps a story can be gritty with magic or gods, but it's harder. If you can resurrect people, it tends to lower the stakes. This is why gritty stories tend to take place in low magic, or harder sci-fi environments - the idea is with a gritty story is that it's relatively easy to die, and at least almost impossible to undo. 

 

A good example might be game of thrones. They have gods, the gods do things. They have magic. But its rare, comes with a price and the will of the gods is impossible to predict. So people have been resurrected, but you could never do so reliably. 

 

I completely agree that progressive storylines can be gritty or dark. The AO has some, it's also supernatural and its very dark. 

 

Magic and resurrection in GoT is really not all that rare in the story itself. It's established that it's rare in the world as a whole and that the characters are important people and therefore outliers, but really there's a lot of magic going on there. 

 

 

I used game of thrones, because yes, despite being a low magic world, with more distant gods, there is a lot more in the main story - but the main point I was trying to illustrate, is that despite resurrection and such being possible on GoT, it keeps the stakes high by using those two methods - magic both has a high cost/risks and is unreliable. 

 

So if someone dies, they generally don't come back (it's happened, but generally doesn't). If someone is poisoned or injured they generally don't get magicked back to health. The two obvious cases of resurrection, one was just a zombie, and the other one was a hail mary and no on thought it would actually work. 

 

I think it's just a really good example of how to constrain magic so that everything feels on edge and impactful from a story-writing POV. High magic and high divinity create a scenario where the audience doesn't know the limits. It's like in sci-fi where characters are always brought back, via some parallel dimension or something. It cheapens everything. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by drael6464

[drael6464]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in the probability/likelihood debate because I don't really have a firm position on that. I mean you could argue that its a fantasy world, and thus more people are bi. Or that there's a culture like the greeks. Without limits, a high fantasy world is hard to define in terms of "realism" - audiences may like relateability, but that doesn't mean there's any logic to it, or indeed to the world itself.

 

And because the estimates vary wildly, it's hard to weigh in on. However, according to gallup daily tracking roughly 3.8 percent of the population is personally identifying as gay, bi or lesbian (which is the largest such statistical collation I know of). Higher estimates usually use something like a "bisexual spectrum" or similar abstraction to come up with a higher figure - but those are not people who identify as bi, or people who practice it.

 

Amongst those who identify as bi, pew research 2013 found that around 84 percent of bisexual people are actually in an opposite sex relationship, with the vast minority in same sex relationships. If you were to factor that by five, yes, you'd have an extraordinarily uncommon grouping. Consider that when you combine probabilities like this, it's factorial. You are talking like odds less than 1 in a billion especially once you factor in the fact that most bi people date the opposite sex. 

 

You certainly might get that in an grouping that has a particular kind of culture - like student liberal arts students, or a workplace that has a very cosmopolitan culture, where like minds gather together but I think it's fair to say, that it is very unusual, statistically in the general population. 

[Ryz009]

 

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

 

 

Better than the Red Prince's "romance"

[Juodas Varnas]

 

 

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

 

 

Better than the Red Prince's "romance"

Lohse was the only good one of the lot 

[Ryz009]

 

 

 

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

 

 

Better than the Red Prince's "romance"

Lohse was the only good one of the lot 

 

 

Ifan's and Fane's worked just fine for me. But I'm trash.

[Juodas Varnas]

 

 

 

 

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

 

 

Better than the Red Prince's "romance"

Lohse was the only good one of the lot 

 

 

Ifan's and Fane's worked just fine for me. But I'm trash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkgcgHp2Bh4

[Noctoi]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Deadfire is a big soap opera, really.

 

I wouldn't mind dropping the soap for Serafen. Wink wink.

 

 

All you idiots who demanded in game relationships are the ones to blame for this.

 

Are you happy now?! I have to suffer this terrible fan fic/romance novel writing because of you.

 

It's not D:OS2 level of terrible so I am happy.

 

*gasp* you take that back!! The Ifan romance was one of my favorite romances in any game! <3

 

Though I have to admit, the Sebille one was... uh... terrifying... 

 

 

Better than the Red Prince's "romance"

Lohse was the only good one of the lot 

 

 

Ifan's and Fane's worked just fine for me. But I'm trash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkgcgHp2Bh4

 

Screwit, that's it. I"m off to boff Ifan again... or maybe boff Beast playing as Ifan... Or maybe I"ll boff Lohse playing as beast? Nah that's just weird bahaha. 

 

Either way, I need my terribly trashy romance fix, and I'm tired of waiting for the triggers to be fixed in POE:D. Back in a bit     

[E.RedMark]

Screwit, that's it. I"m off to boff Ifan again... or maybe boff Beast playing as Ifan... Or maybe I"ll boff Lohse playing as beast? Nah that's just weird bahaha. 

 

 

 

 

Either way, I need my terribly trashy romance fix, and I'm tired of waiting for the triggers to be fixed in POE:D. Back in a bit     

 

Bailer! get back here and wait for smoochie with meh! and leave lohse...she is minemineminemine 

[JFutral]

I just don't know then, i've had 3 party members want to come back to the captains quarters almost immediately. I feel like the dialogue must be being initiated too quickly or something. I'd had Maia in my party for all of 5 minutes before she wanted my pole.

 

I will accept it is bugged dialogue and hope a patch sorts it.

 

If not, the writing is horribly forced and ham-fisted.

 

Never mind the companions. I can't keep my pirates at bay. I've had three ship's crew burst into my quarters and think we are going to have mad, ravenous sex.

 

Joe

[morhilane]

Never mind the companions. I can't keep my pirates at bay. I've had three ship's crew burst into my quarters and think we are going to have mad, ravenous sex.

 

Joe

My ship crew doesn't love me, they prefer to play Orlan's Head and the image they use looks strangely like my Watcher...

[drael6464]

 

I just don't know then, i've had 3 party members want to come back to the captains quarters almost immediately. I feel like the dialogue must be being initiated too quickly or something. I'd had Maia in my party for all of 5 minutes before she wanted my pole.

 

I will accept it is bugged dialogue and hope a patch sorts it.

 

If not, the writing is horribly forced and ham-fisted.

 

Never mind the companions. I can't keep my pirates at bay. I've had three ship's crew burst into my quarters and think we are going to have mad, ravenous sex.

 

Joe

 

 

Yeah, I gotta say, that's pretty weird. They just assume you are down for it, whatever gender too. It's like someone showing up with a gimp mask and a car battery and just getting down to business, being surprised if you have reservations....

Edited May 28, 2018 by drael6464

[CENIC]

gimp mask and a car battery

W-what is the battery for?

[Wormerine]

 

Never mind the companions. I can't keep my pirates at bay. I've had three ship's crew burst into my quarters and think we are going to have mad, ravenous sex. Joe

My ship crew doesn't love me, they prefer to play Orlan's Head and the image they use looks strangely like my Watcher...

Ha! I was so upset there was no special reaction for an orlan Captain.

[Skazz]

 

 

Never mind the companions. I can't keep my pirates at bay. I've had three ship's crew burst into my quarters and think we are going to have mad, ravenous sex. Joe

My ship crew doesn't love me, they prefer to play Orlan's Head and the image they use looks strangely like my Watcher...

Ha! I was so upset there was no special reaction for an orlan Captain.

But... there is! I had different dialogue on my Wild Orlan, with special race tag in the text and all that. Basically, the sailors involved are horribly and predictably uncomfortable.

 

Maybe it depends on the personality types of the crew chosen for the event?