[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Voss]

Why does Sawyer think he can rip off the wheel of Saṃsāra and present it as something original? Things were better when they used refined settings like forgotten realms and not tried "to invent the wheel".

Because sadly Obsidian gets lauded for this junk by people who don't know much themselves.

 

Most of pillars, Kotor 2 and several other games are drivel based on half remembered philosophy 101 classes.

 

Unfortunately, its largely new material to the critics and general audience, so gets an 'oh, wow' reaction.

 

I had that response to planescape torment when I was in my teens. Replaying it in college, I was less impressed, having been introduced to the full version of those concepts. Replaying it as a full adult, I'm a little contemptuous of how badly basic concepts were handled.

 

Its the same here, obsidian is struggling to reprise/reinvent concepts they don't even vaguely grasp.

[HooAmEye]

 

Why does Sawyer think he can rip off the wheel of Saṃsāra and present it as something original? Things were better when they used refined settings like forgotten realms and not tried "to invent the wheel".

Because sadly Obsidian gets lauded for this junk by people who don't know much themselves.

 

Most of pillars, Kotor 2 and several other games are drivel based on half remembered philosophy 101 classes.

 

Unfortunately, its largely new material to the critics and general audience, so gets an 'oh, wow' reaction.

 

I had that response to planescape torment when I was in my teens. Replaying it in college, I was less impressed, having been introduced to the full version of those concepts. Replaying it as a full adult, I'm a little contemptuous of how badly basic concepts were handled.

 

Its the same here, obsidian is struggling to reprise/reinvent concepts they don't even vaguely grasp.

 

 

I half-agree with you on the P:T note, but you are spot on here. Unfortunately, that is simply how reactions work. Take Christopher Nolan for example. A painfully average film maker (like pretty much everyone in Hollywood), but gets acclaimed because he markets slightly intelligent ideas to the mainstream. Still like the Dark Knight though

[Wormerine]

At least they gave PC an option to admit he has no idea what’s going on when talking to gods.

[Skazz]

Are you saying I should feel dumb for liking KotOR 2?

 

[Zeitzbach]

At least they gave PC an option to admit he has no idea what’s going on when talking to gods.

 

So you're saying

 

The watcher doesn't recycle.

 

WHY AM I PLAYING SUCH A FILTHY MONSTER?!

[HooAmEye]

No, not at all. Pursue what you find interesting in KotOR2 and read to you heart's desire. What I was getting at was that many pieces of media are acclaimed for very rudimentary philosophy, which gets viewed as smart simply because one hasn't been exposed to it yet. Of course, this is a bit of a slippery slope when you notice that there is always more to learn.

Edited May 21, 2018 by HooAmEye

[morhilane]

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

People keep saying the gods were created, but the actual process was merging thousand of Engwithans souls together and souls are a repository of memories. My guess is that Berath was(are) the Engwithan(s) who created and built the Wheel before being granted apotheosis.

 

Which means that Berath should know how to repair it...

Edited May 21, 2018 by morhilane

[E.RedMark]

 

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

People keep saying the gods were created, but the actual process was merging thousand of Engwithans souls together and souls are a repository of memories. My guess is that Berath was(are) the Engwithan(s) who created and built the Wheel before being granted apotheosis.

 

Which means that Berath should know how to repair it...

 

if she does..what does she gain letting Eotha do the breaking the wheel down? 

 

Unless she use the knowledge to blackmail the gods , or use the knowledge to control the mortal who will rebuild it in a way that will give her an edge or advantage......

 

Or keep the knowledge..and give up the job she has ? and become something that don't rely on the wheel maybe? 

[Elerond]

 

 

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

People keep saying the gods were created, but the actual process was merging thousand of Engwithans souls together and souls are a repository of memories. My guess is that Berath was(are) the Engwithan(s) who created and built the Wheel before being granted apotheosis.

 

Which means that Berath should know how to repair it...

 

if she does..what does she gain letting Eotha do the breaking the wheel down? 

 

Unless she use the knowledge to blackmail the gods , or use the knowledge to control the mortal who will rebuild it in a way that will give her an edge or advantage......

 

Or keep the knowledge..and give up the job she has ? and become something that don't rely on the wheel maybe?

 

Maybe she hopes that Watcher convinces Eothas to give her dominion over gods and kith, which is one of the ending options. Although that ending reveals that she really lacks ambition and prefes very stagnant state of affairs.

[morhilane]

 

 

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

People keep saying the gods were created, but the actual process was merging thousand of Engwithans souls together and souls are a repository of memories. My guess is that Berath was(are) the Engwithan(s) who created and built the Wheel before being granted apotheosis.

 

Which means that Berath should know how to repair it...

 

if she does..what does she gain letting Eotha do the breaking the wheel down? 

 

Unless she use the knowledge to blackmail the gods , or use the knowledge to control the mortal who will rebuild it in a way that will give her an edge or advantage......

 

Or keep the knowledge..and give up the job she has ? and become something that don't rely on the wheel maybe? 

 

She gains long vacations?

 

I feels like we are missing some information about the gods true purpose to really speculate properly. Eothas say they walked away form it, but I don't remember much explanation on what it was outside "strong soul" getting a mention. If souls are involved than the Wheel is involved though.

[E.RedMark]

 

 

 

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

People keep saying the gods were created, but the actual process was merging thousand of Engwithans souls together and souls are a repository of memories. My guess is that Berath was(are) the Engwithan(s) who created and built the Wheel before being granted apotheosis.

 

Which means that Berath should know how to repair it...

 

if she does..what does she gain letting Eotha do the breaking the wheel down? 

 

Unless she use the knowledge to blackmail the gods , or use the knowledge to control the mortal who will rebuild it in a way that will give her an edge or advantage......

 

Or keep the knowledge..and give up the job she has ? and become something that don't rely on the wheel maybe? 

 

She gains long vacations?

 

I feels like we are missing some information about the gods true purpose to really speculate properly. Eothas say they walked away form it, but I don't remember much explanation on what it was outside "strong soul" getting a mention. If souls are involved than the Wheel is involved though.

 

Let's hope not! I'm totally smitten now by Berath and wanna nerd about the gods as much as I can !

 

why would she summon us when the gods bickers ?

 

To see that they are no different from mortal ? hear stuff the others gods don't want you to hear ? 

 

unless berath want death to all gods ?

[morhilane]

Let's hope not! I'm totally smitten now by Berath and wanna nerd about the gods as much as I can !

 

why would she summon us when the gods bickers ?

 

To see that they are no different from mortal ? hear stuff the others gods don't want you to hear ? 

 

unless berath want death to all gods ?

 

Berath does come off as having an agenda of some sort, but if Eothas powers her up, everything becomes stagnant, so being the only god/leader doesn't seems it. Berath has a small priesthood and barely talks to them, getting more worshipers doesn't seems like a goal...unless Berath is in "mortals depends too much on gods" camp, hmm...yep, vacations.

 

As for the secrets, the way I see it, not all the gods agrees with that policies. Hiding stuff seems to be Ondra, Woedica and Wael ideas. Magran and Berath do not care.

 

When you are at Ashen Maw, it seems that Magran is listening to your conversation with Eothas. The other gods might have been "invited", hence Ondra causing the huge wave. Their failure is what spark the bickering. While Berath just want your impression, gives some info and tells you to go after Eothas. Now, I have this image of the gods looking through a "tv" via the link Berath forge with the Watcher, lol.

[Icesong]

I don't think it's fair to say things become stagnant under Berath. They become steady. There aren't any soaring periods of creative inspiration, but neither are there periods of despondency. Progress is still going ever onward, come what may. Highly appealing to my stoic sensibilities.

[TempMcGuy]

Wow, the main story (and ending) of this game was complete ****. Add to that the bad narrator and the joke of the legendary city... (which the game was hyping up).

 

The best ending for this game is the one where Berath kill you in the beginning.

 

Edit: They shouldn't have brought back Aloth in this, he didn't have anything interesting to say or have any connection to the main narrative/any of the side factions.

 

Edit 2: Recommend checking out Smudboys videos on youtube about this game.

Edited May 22, 2018 by TempMcGuy

[Tarlonniel]

I wanted Eothas to power up Hylea. I was a little disappointed when the game didn't give us a choice in the matter.

[Icesong]

I wanted Eothas to power up Hylea. I was a little disappointed when the game didn't give us a choice in the matter.

 

Yeah, I was expecting to at least be able to suggest a god, whether he agreed or not. I would've liked to hear his thoughts on each of them.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Icesong

[morhilane]

I don't think it's fair to say things become stagnant under Berath. They become steady. There aren't any soaring periods of creative inspiration, but neither are there periods of despondency. Progress is still going ever onward, come what may. Highly appealing to my stoic sensibilities.

 

I didn't take the "no surge of innovation or prosperity" to mean progress was still going onward. That ending is slightly different if you sided with RDC too.

 

 

Although, I find it interesting that empowering Berath results in a more stable seasons and less wars and/or natural disasters. That suggest the gods have an effect on Eora's ecosystem.

[Icesong]

 

I don't think it's fair to say things become stagnant under Berath. They become steady. There aren't any soaring periods of creative inspiration, but neither are there periods of despondency. Progress is still going ever onward, come what may. Highly appealing to my stoic sensibilities.

 

I didn't take the "no surge of innovation or prosperity" to mean progress was still going onward. That ending is slightly different if you sided with RDC too.

 

 

Although, I find it interesting that empowering Berath results in a more stable seasons and less wars and/or natural disasters. That suggest the gods have an effect on Eora's ecosystem.

 

 

It was this slide that makes me think progress is still happening. Sided with Aeldys in this playthrough.

[morhilane]

 

 

I don't think it's fair to say things become stagnant under Berath. They become steady. There aren't any soaring periods of creative inspiration, but neither are there periods of despondency. Progress is still going ever onward, come what may. Highly appealing to my stoic sensibilities.

 

I didn't take the "no surge of innovation or prosperity" to mean progress was still going onward. That ending is slightly different if you sided with RDC too.

 

 

Although, I find it interesting that empowering Berath results in a more stable seasons and less wars and/or natural disasters. That suggest the gods have an effect on Eora's ecosystem.

 

 

It was this slide that makes me think progress is still happening. Sided with Aeldys in this playthrough.

 

 

According to the wiki, that line requires Rauatai to control Ukaizo...

[sutr]

 The knowledge that the Wheel was natural or existed before the Engwithans is based on what? 

 

In Caed Nua you can read lore written by Engwithans that the cycle preceded them. A ghost of a Engwithan out rite tells you that his son would be reincarnated just not "properly"    

[M4xw0lf]

Are you saying I should feel dumb for liking KotOR 2?

 

No, KotOR II is great. I'll fight anyone throwing dirt at it

 

So anyways, PoE2... I only can join in the chorus of confused voices in here. While I can't say I found any part of the plot inherently bad, a stale taste remains after the ending slides. Suffice to say, there is nothing I hate quite as much as retcons in series of games, books, ...anything. ME2 to Andromeda, Fallout 3 and 4... needless destruction of established lore makes my blood boil.

Now, I think the jury is still out on Deadfire and Obsidian regerding retconning of PoE lore, and that's mainly due to the confusion the very short main plot leaves us with. But still some answers given in Deadfire are awfully close to making parts of PoE1's world and plot illogical and contradictory, which is exactly what retconning does.

Edited May 22, 2018 by M4xw0lf

[Icesong]

According to the wiki, that line requires Rauatai to control Ukaizo...

I don't want to criticize because it's not as if I'm lending a hand, but the Pillars wiki is one of the least fleshed out I've seen.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Icesong

[Katarack21]

No, not at all. Pursue what you find interesting in KotOR2 and read to you heart's desire. What I was getting at was that many pieces of media are acclaimed for very rudimentary philosophy, which gets viewed as smart simply because one hasn't been exposed to it yet. Of course, this is a bit of a slippery slope when you notice that there is always more to learn.

I think you're being overly harsh for what are essentially "lies we tell to children", only it's "simplified concepts we tell to people who don't have a wide base of knowledge".

[Shadenuat]

Second game and they already nuke their whole cosmology established in the first game. Well that setting went well. D&D with it's Mystra death and whatever feels almost tame in comparison how quick stuff goes, and all centered around 1 watcher person.

[Palas]

I am surprised, that so many complain about retcon or nuke the lore and cosmology. I did not see this.

 

PoE1 never said, that the wheel was not created by the Gods btw Engwithans. In fact we learned, that Berath is an artifical god and a god of the wheel. We also learned, that the Engwithans were great animancers, who could control the flow of souls. That was, what Thaos did in part 1. So where is the surprise, that the Engwithans created the wheel?

 

But the game do not tell, who the flow of souls and reincarnation works before the wheel. Thats too bad.

 

The game dont explain in detail the true nature and function of souls. Im not sure, but i think in the prologe of PoE1 it was said, thar Adra was once growing, but today not more.

 

I wonder if that is true, that Adra once grew? Could it be, that building the wheel stoped the growth of Adra? Could it be, that Adra is pure soul essence and was the source of new souls before the wheel?