Chris Avellone: The Final Frontier

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

RPG Codex was one of the communities basically 100% guaranteed to want to believe every part of this. That's why it's there.

 

Aren't they saying we'd be the ones to disbelieve it

 

This IS Obsidian's board. That's a fair expectation. But this board seems more apathetic about this subject than anything. I expected to wake up to a much larger thread, but apparently "Chris hates Obsidian" isn't as big a draw on this board as posting "Romance in PoE II".

 

 

Chris has never stated he hates Obsidian. His beef is with 'upper management' and primary Feargus based on what he's posted. With very good reason if what has been said is true.

 

He doesn't have to state it, it's pretty obvious. Platitudes about how he wishes the poor victim employees the best don't mean much when he's actively hoping they'll sue him and rooting for the company's destruction.

 

 

Please cite where Chris is rooting for the company's destruction. I missed that one.

 

And your interpretation of the other is a bit twisted.

 

Those who have X in their heart often cannot understand how others do not. In this case the X is hate....

[Skazz]

Those who have X in their heart often cannot understand how others do not. In this case the X is hate....

Uh... what?

 

I’m sorry, but even putting Chris and Obsidian aside... what?

 

Is this a sermon? Are we in a church or something?

 

I don’t want to come off as disrespectful, but this just sounds so... bizarre.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Skazz

[HoonDing]

im on Team Avellone

[Mebrilia]

another piece of the puzzle from Chris.

 

More information: The de-ownering separation contract I was given was pretty strict (which again is good business, especially if you’re pretty sure the person is going to have to sign).

Among the first elements I objected to was that the contract had a “you must sign this in 10 days or else you get nothing.”

For the record for any other employees in this situation (at least in California), this is something you can absolutely fight back on, so do check with your lawyer.

To be fair, they were pushing for a swift resolution along with the NDA, which again is good business - and according to discussions after the departure, that clause seemed to have worked with other employees who didn’t check (they were in similar financial situations, though).

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

As I said, the 10 days or else did turn out not to be legally binding when confronted on and may have been dropped, but that was the specs of the contract I was hit with, and another reason I didn’t sign it. (The medical insurance time limits I couldn’t do anything about.)

I don’t recall much about the Tyranny contract offer because I didn’t want to work on it based on what was going on, and arguably, I was too focused on the primary contract.

If I had signed the first de-ownering contract, however, with the non-competes, the problem would be that Tyranny would actually be the only RPG option I would have to work on (and any other Obsidian-sponsored RPGs they chose to exclude from the de-ownering agreement), so rather than being an olive branch, it was more, “here’s how we own you twice, still get you to write as always, but at a fraction of the cost.”

[majestic]

im on Team Avellone

 

Yeah you always had a faint sparkle about you.

[213374U]

Am I misunderstanding the discussion here, or is one party actually arguing that Fergus is guilty until proven otherwise.

Yeah, you may be misunderstanding the discussion... and maybe the context in which presumption of innocence is meant to be applied too. The burden of proof principle would serve us here if this were a court of law and it was necessary to determine someone's guilt. It isn't, and nobody is forced to take sides unless they want to.

 

I'm not sure where do you get off demanding that MCA proves anything to you "or shut up". The man can speak as he pleases, when and where he pleases. And if the affected party believes he's causing undue damage to their image and reputation, they are within their right to defend themselves in a venue where what you're referring to would apply. Whether through insanity or righteousness, Avellone is apparently not concerned about that possibility. I don't understand how anyone would "welcome" the prospect of a protracted legal battle, but that's just me.

 

In short: don't presume anything (neither innocence nor guilt), because you have no need to make a judgment.

Edited May 5, 2018 by 213374U

[kirottu]

In short: don't presume anything (neither innocence nor guilt), because you have no need to make a judgment.

But judging other people is like half the fun of being in the internet. Other half being the pr0n.

[213374U]

 

In short: don't presume anything (neither innocence nor guilt), because you have no need to make a judgment.

But judging other people is like half the fun of being in the internet. Other half being the pr0n.

 

Well, yeah. But I just don't feel like playing into Infinitron's hands so easily, here. He's having enough fun at the Codex as it is, so I'm going to keep my shirt on for now.

[Lexx]

lol, apparently Feargus tried to get his young children into Obsidian as employees?

[Mamoulian War]

i do not see that as a problem. You know, if someone owns a company, he most of the time hopes, that at least one of his children wil take over. And what is the best way how to give your children some taste of what might his future looks like, and get some more experience? Give them the opportunity to work at your company...

 

I was helping out in my parents business from the age of 16, and after few years, I have decided to follow different path, but my sister, which started at 24, is still following in their footsteps...

Edited May 5, 2018 by Mamoulian War

[Orogun01]

i do not see that as a problem. You know, if someone owns a company, he most of the time hopes, that at least one of his children wil take over. And what is the best way how to give your children some taste of what might his future looks like, and get some more experience? Give them the opportunity to work at your company...

 

I was helping out in my parents business from the age of 16, and after few years, I have decided to follow different path, but my sister, which started at 24, is still following in their footsteps...

Please, don't excuse nepotism. IDK how things are run at Obsidian but I seen enough daddy's babies enough to know they will never get the real  work experience. There might the odd exception where the kid is actually hard working and putting in the effort but no worker is going to risk pressuring them.

 

There's a world of difference between working for your family and working in your family's company.

[Valsuelm]

I don't understand how anyone would "welcome" the prospect of a protracted legal battle, but that's just me.

 

Saying you welcome the fight or 'bring it' or something along those lines doesn't necessarily mean you actually want the fight. It very well may just mean you're more than ready for it, and if someone dares bring it, you're ready to thwomp them.

 

Legal battles suck. I'm sure Avellone realizes that, as he's a smart guy.

 

When the truth is on your side and your hands are clean, you tend to not give a poop if someone might sue you, as you know and those who might sue you more than likely know, that when all is said and done, you'll more than likely prevail (the truth tends to do that).

[Mamoulian War]

@ Orogun... Well we have to disagree on that. I know a lot of people who owns companies, but do not want their children to become ****. Every good manager does not allow even his children to slack at the company. Slacking children means the company after parents retirement will go under in no time... I do not know anyone by myself, who would wish for that... If someone does not wish that, and still allows his children to slack, he is an idiot, and they deserve everything, what happens to the company, because of that...

Edited May 5, 2018 by Mamoulian War

[Orogun01]

@ Orogun... Well we have to disagree on that. I know a lot of people who owns companies, but do not want their children to become ****. Every good manager does not allow even his children to slack at the company. Slacking children means the company after parents retirement will go under in no time... I do not know anyone by myself, who would wish for that... If someone does not wish that, and still allows his children to slack, he is an idiot, and they deserve everything, what happens to the company, because of that...

That's great to hear, I genuinely mean that but unfortunately I live in the US. Tis the land of shamelessness and the whole corporate world is a lot like feudalism, it ain't fun to be a serf.

[Zoraptor]

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

 

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

 

He'd have a point complaining about an asymmetric NDA if Obsidian had said anything bad against him, but so far it's been entirely one way in that respect. And again, he's made it patently clear recently why they would want an NDA and why it would not be an unreasonable stipulation. So far there's no reason why an NDA applying to Obs would be necessary or practically advantageous to him in any way. The reverse, not so much.

 

Frankly, his belief that he'd have no legal recourse if Obs started slagging him off is utterly ridiculous. If they're defamatory then it doesn't matter whether there's an NDA, it's defamatory. At the most basic level: it's a tad, a mite, a smidgeon hypocritical to complain about someone else being free to hypothetically do what you yourself are actually doing, when they aren't doing it.

[Voss]

 

I don't understand how anyone would "welcome" the prospect of a protracted legal battle, but that's just me.

 

Saying you welcome the fight or 'bring it' or something along those lines doesn't necessarily mean you actually want the fight. It very well may just mean you're more than ready for it, and if someone dares bring it, you're ready to thwomp them.

 

Or, more commonly, merely posturing.

[213374U]

When the truth is on your side and your hands are clean, you tend to not give a poop if someone might sue you, as you know and those who might sue you more than likely know, that when all is said and done, you'll more than likely prevail (the truth tends to do that).

Wow, you are an optimist at heart! You do a pretty good job of hiding it too. Might be different there, but over here, once stuff goes to court, it's an absolute crapshoot.

 

 

At the most basic level: it's a tad, a mite, a smidgeon hypocritical to complain about someone else being free to hypothetically do what you yourself are actually doing, when they aren't doing it.

Haha, good catch.

[Blodhemn]

 

What was troublesome was the fact the NDA wasn’t mutual despite the mutual separation agreement (they could say whatever they wanted, but I would have no legal recourse – not only about that, but anything), which understandably, made me uncomfortable.

 

Again, that’s good business if you can get someone to sign that. I did argue that a mutual separation agreement should, in fact, be mutual.

 

He'd have a point complaining about an asymmetric NDA if Obsidian had said anything bad against him, but so far it's been entirely one way in that respect. And again, he's made it patently clear recently why they would want an NDA and why it would not be an unreasonable stipulation. So far there's no reason why an NDA applying to Obs would be necessary or practically advantageous to him in any way. The reverse, not so much.

 

Frankly, his belief that he'd have no legal recourse if Obs started slagging him off is utterly ridiculous. If they're defamatory then it doesn't matter whether there's an NDA, it's defamatory. At the most basic level: it's a tad, a mite, a smidgeon hypocritical to complain about someone else being free to hypothetically do what you yourself are actually doing, when they aren't doing it.

 

Exactly what I was going to quote and respond. Thanks for saving me the time.

 

What a horrible agreement - one that has enabled you to do exactly what you're afraid of the other party doing. *facepalm* Which leads me to believe he wasn't exactly that afraid, just desperate to claw for anything to now complain about.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Blodhemn

[the_dog_days]

 

@ Orogun... Well we have to disagree on that. I know a lot of people who owns companies, but do not want their children to become ****. Every good manager does not allow even his children to slack at the company. Slacking children means the company after parents retirement will go under in no time... I do not know anyone by myself, who would wish for that... If someone does not wish that, and still allows his children to slack, he is an idiot, and they deserve everything, what happens to the company, because of that...

That's great to hear, I genuinely mean that but unfortunately I live in the US. Tis the land of shamelessness and the whole corporate world is a lot like feudalism, it ain't fun to be a serf.

 

 

We must live in different parts of the US.

[Mebrilia]

Video on the argument:

 

https://youtu.be/FisYHeay4HA

[injurai]

 

 

 

@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

Got any links to that? I'm curious.

Unfortunately, it’s kinda tedious to link them all individually. If you scroll back to 2/1/17 in his feed you should be able to find the threads

 

 

It's still a start. Thanks!

 

EDIT: Okay, I checked all the hotspots outlined by Chris and... I don't see anything scandalous in the contents of the interview? What's so terrible about, say, the fact that Feargus doesn't lose sleep over what could have been (specifically, missing the infamous 85% Metacritic bonus)? Am I missing something?

 

EDIT 2: *doesn't lose sleep. I accidentally swallowed a word.

 

 

Regardless what Feargus actually thinks about that lost metacritic bonus, his nonplussed attitude about it always struck me as a "we are happy and willing to work with publishers." They don't want to go around burning bridges because other publisher's might take notice, and often publishers want to run things in their interest. So it's best not to scare them off by overly high standards. Tis the unfortunate reality of an industry built around luxury products. Yes, all you nerds are lucky to even get to play games.

[Orogun01]

 

 

@ Orogun... Well we have to disagree on that. I know a lot of people who owns companies, but do not want their children to become ****. Every good manager does not allow even his children to slack at the company. Slacking children means the company after parents retirement will go under in no time... I do not know anyone by myself, who would wish for that... If someone does not wish that, and still allows his children to slack, he is an idiot, and they deserve everything, what happens to the company, because of that...

That's great to hear, I genuinely mean that but unfortunately I live in the US. Tis the land of shamelessness and the whole corporate world is a lot like feudalism, it ain't fun to be a serf.

 

 

We must live in different parts of the US.

 

Do kindly share cause I'm dying to see that American dream I was told.

[the_dog_days]

I live in the midwest and in my state 99% of all businesses are small to mid-sized businesses.

[injurai]

 

@ Orogun... Well we have to disagree on that. I know a lot of people who owns companies, but do not want their children to become ****. Every good manager does not allow even his children to slack at the company. Slacking children means the company after parents retirement will go under in no time... I do not know anyone by myself, who would wish for that... If someone does not wish that, and still allows his children to slack, he is an idiot, and they deserve everything, what happens to the company, because of that...

That's great to hear, I genuinely mean that but unfortunately I live in the US. Tis the land of shamelessness and the whole corporate world is a lot like feudalism, it ain't fun to be a serf.

 

 

Having studied the feudal era of Japan, it struck me has how similar it was to modern day corporate America. Namely how ownership of revenue streams worked. Typically the rich owned revenue that was generate a hundred miles away, so nobody could directly act out in anger. While those they spend money on where earning revenue for the rich folks that lived over where they were earning revenue. Basically nobody had an outlet to complain, and the rich payed patronage and charity just enough to make the locals think they were the good kind of wealthy.

 

If you didn't own land, or revenue streams, you had to be affiliated with houses that did. Otherwise you'd fall off the map. Today even the manner in which general insurance and other benefits come to people, you basically have to be a member of these "micro-kingdoms" we call companies.

 

I live in the midwest and in my state 99% of all businesses are small to mid-sized businesses.

 

What percentage of the economy or employment is under these businesses? What percentage of the state owns a business and can write themselves their own check?

[DragonWiz]

Video on the argument:

 

https://youtu.be/FisYHeay4HA

 

Total cringe.