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Chris Avellone: The Final Frontier

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There are a lot of folks arguing points in this thread that are irrelevant.

 

You're seriously wasting your time in this thread, if you haven't read the Codex thread.

Edited by Valsuelm
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I'll never get my dream Vampire game without MCA and Mitsoda coming back to Obsidian

 

vampire is a ****ty IP that should've been allowed to die with the '90s

 

It did die actually. But then we got The Requiem which is worse. 

 

 

 

The virgin Masquerade:

 

> ****ty judeo-christian mythology is objective setting truth

> overwrought metaplot featuring "ghost nukes" and elder vampires killed by orbital death lasers

> system is a jumbled mess of '90s-isms

> vampire archetypes include time lords and half-fairies

> superheroes with fangs

 

The chad Requiem:

 

> vampire history is whatever grain of truth you can infer from the blood-red fever dreams of half-crazy elders

> no metaplot, even significant setting elements come with different explanations the GM can pick and choose from

> system actually facilitates the kinds of stories the game is about

> clans correspond to archetypes typically seen in vampire media (but bloodlines still allow you customization)

> Disciplines are creepy as ****

 

 

 

I may or may not be somewhat facetious here

 

Edited by aluminiumtrioxid

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Right now, Chris reminds me of a little boy who taunts a bigger kid until he gets hit. Then he runs to his parents to tell them that this bigger kid has hurt him without a reason.

 

I don't doubt the accusations. I just can't fight the feeling that there's something Chris isn't telling us. Something that would shed some important light on this drama, but a bad light on him. It's always about what Feargus and the rest of the management have done to him. But why? Why after all those years? And why did they do it to a person, who is so adored by RPG fans? Chris is a reason why people may choose to buy a certain game instead of another. Why did they choose to rip him off and upset him like that? That's what I'd really like to know. Only a really stupid management would do that out of nowhere to someone that important for the fans. Unless they had a good personal reason.

 

So what was really going on before Chris left? That's what I need to know here before I can decide who's most to blame. And no, I don't think that I'll stop liking anyone's work here, if it suits my taste.

Edited by LittleRose
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[griping about Masquerade]

Different strokes and all that. However, I can definitely agree that there was plenty of weird and downright terrible stuff about Masquerade (lol True Black Hand) that may or may have not aged well - which is part of the reason why I like Bloodlines so much. To me, the developers did a stellar job at filtering most of the questionable verdigris of OWoD as a whole.

 

That said, good luck trying to convince me that Demon: The Descent was any better than Demon: The Fallen.

Edited by Skazz
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Right now, Chris reminds me of a little boy who taunts a bigger kid until he gets hit. Then he runs to his parents to tell them that this bigger kid has hurt him without a reason.

 

I don't doubt the accusations. I just can't fight the feeling that there's something Chris isn't telling us. Something that would shed some important light on this drama, but a bad light on him. It's always about what Feargus and the rest of the management have done to him. But why? Why after all those years? And why did they do it to a person, who is so adored by RPG fans? Chris is a reason why people may choose to buy a certain game instead of another. Why did they choose to rip him off and upset him like that? That's what I'd really like to know. Only a really stupid management would do that out of nowhere to someone that important for the fans. Unless they had a good personal reason.

 

So what was really going on before Chris left? That's what I need to know here before I can decide who's most to blame. And no, I don't think that I'll stop liking anyone's work here, if it suits my taste.

 

Here's something we know for sure Chris was doing before he left Obsidian: Spending much of his time on other studios' games (Wasteland 2, Torment: Tides of Numenera)

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Right now, Chris reminds me of a little boy who taunts a bigger kid until he gets hit. Then he runs to his parents to tell them that this bigger kid has hurt him without a reason.

 

I don't doubt the accusations. I just can't fight the feeling that there's something Chris isn't telling us. Something that would shed some important light on this drama, but a bad light on him. It's always about what Feargus and the rest of the management have done to him. But why? Why after all those years? And why did they do it to a person, who is so adored by RPG fans? Chris is a reason why people may choose to buy a certain game instead of another. Why did they choose to rip him off and upset him like that? That's what I'd really like to know. Only a really stupid management would do that out of nowhere to someone that important for the fans. Unless they had a good personal reason.

 

So what was really going on before Chris left? That's what I need to know here before I can decide who's most to blame. And no, I don't think that I'll stop liking anyone's work here, if it suits my taste.

 

Here's something we know for sure Chris was doing before he left Obsidian: Spending much of his time on other studios' games (Wasteland 2, Torment: Tides of Numenera)

 

 

Watch as one man tries to uncover the truth. How far will he go! Who will he cross to get the truth! 

 

Stay tuned next week on AVELLONES RETRIBUTION! 

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LOL. If Feargus brings her wife to the company and he only gives her minimal wage, or better yet, her salary is deducted from Feargus' pay (which means she doesn't get any salary basicaly), then Feargus is pretty bad at this. Oh wait, he is a saint, so that must be it. You can't be serious that this is the case. Oh, you don't know this either.

Exactly.  I don't know.  Funny, neither do you, neither does Avellone.  So when I point out how it could possibly be benign I am an idiot, because I have no data to prove it, but Avellone claiming it is nepotism and immoral is legit?  Oh wait, he also has no evidence to prove that.

 

You don't talk crap if you have no data to back it up, that was the whole point of my post.  Avellone has a name on a spreadsheet, and gives no context beyond that.  Either because he doesn't have anything else to offer (so no actual data), or because the context would make his point moot so he omits it (data doesn't play into his narrative).

 

See I am a data analyst by trade.  So one person asked what I know about Avellone? A lot actually, because he keeps running his mouth on the internet.  Every time he does it, he does it specifically to hurt his former employer, and he has done it multiple times over multiple years.  That says he holds a grudge, is likely very petty (in his own words he is rich now, it isn't like whatever deal he got from Obsidian actually hurt him), more than likely extremely self centered, and likely has a massive ego. 

 

He also only ever says it on RPG Codex, which tells me more.  It tells me he knows he has no real argument, because if he had real evidence to prove Feargus was unethical he would release it to a real news source.  It tells me he is probably cowardly at heart, because he only ever posts this stuff on Codex, which is the safest space in the internet for Avellone.  On any other forum he might face a critical reception, or hard analysis of what he is actually saying.

 

What do I know about Feargus?  Not much.  He runs a profitable company, he has not risen to the bait and replied to Avellone, his company does in fact do Charity work, and he did expense a big ass party for his team to celebrate a game release because they deserved some reward more than their normal paycheck.  If nothing else that tells me he is at least a decent business man and manager, otherwise Obsidian would not have held on this long.  He gives at least half a crap about his employees, or why give the party?  Also he isn't dumb enough to fall for Avellone's bait, which means he has common sense, and values his companies reputation more than replying to personal attacks.

 

So yeah, if I had to trust one over the other, the data I have says I should trust Feargus.  Unlike Avellone, he has never publicly tried to disparage former coworkers and business partners, or done anything blatantly self serving.  That's good enough data for me.

 

PS: for all of you wondering why RPG Codex not being on this forum much at all anymore is a good thing, look at this thread.  Now make threads like this pop up weekly.  Yeah.

Edited by Karkarov
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if I had to trust one over the other

You don't "have" to trust anyone, though. That's entirely your choice.


- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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if I had to trust one over the other

You don't "have" to trust anyone, though. That's entirely your choice.

The sentence itself uses the words "if I had to....", as in, if someone put a gun to my head and said choose or die.  I didn't say I trusted either.  Though I will say Avellone has done more than enough to prove he is untrustworthy.

 

How about I write it so Codexer's can fully get it.

 

Of the two, Chris Avellone and Feargus Urquhart, which one "appears" more trustworthy based on the data that is available?

 

Feargus Urquhart.

 

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The sentence itself uses the words "if I had to....", as in, if someone put a gun to my head and said choose or die.  I didn't say I trusted either.  Though I will say Avellone has done more than enough to prove he is untrustworthy.

Yeah, but it seems to me that you're getting a little bent out of shape, what with your previous posts and the epithets you've dedicated to Avellone. Which is why it's apparent that you have already chosen to trust one part—despite no one putting a gun to your head.

 

I wouldn't say Avellone has done anything to prove he is untrustworthy. Unless he's been caught in an outright lie in the last few pages that I've missed, nothing is fact here so far. Just allegations on one side and silence on the other. You may not like his writing style or think that the guy is classless for airing his grievances in public, but that's not really proof that he's untrustworthy in and of itself. Not even enough to make an educated guess, really.

 

You're of course free to believe what you will without evidence, but then it's rather hypocritical to rail against others for doing the same.

Edited by 213374U
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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

 

EDIT: Speaking of Chris on Twitter

 

"I have officially left Obsidian Entertainment to accept a sudden opening as the Defence Against the Dark Arts Professor at Hogwarts"

Edited by Achilles
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

 

Got any links to that? I'm curious.

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You're of course free to believe what you will without evidence, but then it's rather hypocritical to rail against others for doing the same.

Or maybe I am just tired of RPG Codex bringing their drama and Avellone's bile to this forum.

 

How many times  does it need to happen?

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if I had to trust one over the other

You don't "have" to trust anyone, though. That's entirely your choice.

The sentence itself uses the words "if I had to....", as in, if someone put a gun to my head and said choose or die.  I didn't say I trusted either.  Though I will say Avellone has done more than enough to prove he is untrustworthy.

 

How about I write it so Codexer's can fully get it.

 

Of the two, Chris Avellone and Feargus Urquhart, which one "appears" more trustworthy based on the data that is available?

 

Feargus Urquhart.

 

 

 

Not really.

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if I had to trust one over the other

You don't "have" to trust anyone, though. That's entirely your choice.
The sentence itself uses the words "if I had to....", as in, if someone put a gun to my head and said choose or die. I didn't say I trusted either. Though I will say Avellone has done more than enough to prove he is untrustworthy.

 

How about I write it so Codexer's can fully get it.

 

Of the two, Chris Avellone and Feargus Urquhart, which one "appears" more trustworthy based on the data that is available?

 

Feargus Urquhart.

Still with the angry dog act, I see. Also, you say you don't trust either, yet you just know that Avellone is untrustworthy :lol:

 

Ah, people here.

Edited by Malcador
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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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You're of course free to believe what you will without evidence, but then it's rather hypocritical to rail against others for doing the same.

Or maybe I am just tired of RPG Codex bringing their drama and Avellone's bile to this forum.

 

How many times  does it need to happen?

 

You can take the man out of the Codex, but you can't take the Codex out of the man, eh?

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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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LOL. If Feargus brings her wife to the company and he only gives her minimal wage, or better yet, her salary is deducted from Feargus' pay (which means she doesn't get any salary basicaly), then Feargus is pretty bad at this. Oh wait, he is a saint, so that must be it. You can't be serious that this is the case. Oh, you don't know this either.

Exactly.  I don't know.  Funny, neither do you, neither does Avellone.  So when I point out how it could possibly be benign I am an idiot, because I have no data to prove it, but Avellone claiming it is nepotism and immoral is legit?  Oh wait, he also has no evidence to prove that.

 

You don't talk crap if you have no data to back it up, that was the whole point of my post.  Avellone has a name on a spreadsheet, and gives no context beyond that.  Either because he doesn't have anything else to offer (so no actual data), or because the context would make his point moot so he omits it (data doesn't play into his narrative).

 

See I am a data analyst by trade.  So one person asked what I know about Avellone? A lot actually, because he keeps running his mouth on the internet.  Every time he does it, he does it specifically to hurt his former employer, and he has done it multiple times over multiple years.  That says he holds a grudge, is likely very petty (in his own words he is rich now, it isn't like whatever deal he got from Obsidian actually hurt him), more than likely extremely self centered, and likely has a massive ego. 

 

He also only ever says it on RPG Codex, which tells me more.  It tells me he knows he has no real argument, because if he had real evidence to prove Feargus was unethical he would release it to a real news source.  It tells me he is probably cowardly at heart, because he only ever posts this stuff on Codex, which is the safest space in the internet for Avellone.  On any other forum he might face a critical reception, or hard analysis of what he is actually saying.

 

What do I know about Feargus?  Not much.  He runs a profitable company, he has not risen to the bait and replied to Avellone, his company does in fact do Charity work, and he did expense a big ass party for his team to celebrate a game release because they deserved some reward more than their normal paycheck.  If nothing else that tells me he is at least a decent business man and manager, otherwise Obsidian would not have held on this long.  He gives at least half a crap about his employees, or why give the party?  Also he isn't dumb enough to fall for Avellone's bait, which means he has common sense, and values his companies reputation more than replying to personal attacks.

 

So yeah, if I had to trust one over the other, the data I have says I should trust Feargus.  Unlike Avellone, he has never publicly tried to disparage former coworkers and business partners, or done anything blatantly self serving.  That's good enough data for me.

 

PS: for all of you wondering why RPG Codex not being on this forum much at all anymore is a good thing, look at this thread.  Now make threads like this pop up weekly.  Yeah.

 

So Chris is untrustworthy because he has spoken against his former employer and Feargus is trustworthy, because he did not. Because that's all to it. We haven't seen any evidence that Chris was lying. And before you say it, I know we don't have hard evidence supporting Chris' claims either, that's why we can talk and speculate about it. Or we can just sweep everything under the carpet and call it a day. But what if Chris is telling the truth? Do you really think that everything he told us is just a made up story? You can't really believe that. And even if a fraction of what he was saying is true means that there are serious problems with Obsidian's management. And I'd rather talk about this, them being one of my favourite companies. But being a favourite doesn't mean that I don't care if they do something ****ty.

 

And stop dragging the Codex into this. He was talking about this on the Codex because the Codex bothered to ask. Unlike other magazines and forums who are afraid of asking any hard hitting questions from developers. Just compare a Codex interview with any other. Which one actually asks the more interesing, not watered down questions?


J_C from Codexia

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@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

Got any links to that? I'm curious.

Unfortunately, it’s kinda tedious to link them all individually. If you scroll back to 2/1/17 in his feed you should be able to find the threads

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

Got any links to that? I'm curious.

Unfortunately, it’s kinda tedious to link them all individually. If you scroll back to 2/1/17 in his feed you should be able to find the threads

 

 

It's still a start. :) Thanks!

 

EDIT: Okay, I checked all the hotspots outlined by Chris and... I don't see anything scandalous in the contents of the interview? What's so terrible about, say, the fact that Feargus doesn't lose sleep over what could have been (specifically, missing the infamous 85% Metacritic bonus)? Am I missing something?

 

EDIT 2: *doesn't lose sleep. I accidentally swallowed a word. :facepalm:

Edited by Skazz

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Am I misunderstanding the discussion here, or is one party actually arguing that Fergus is guilty until proven otherwise. Because one can't simply make up false accusations? MCA needs to step up. His vague excuse on the codex boards, that "they're the only ones who asks" is getting old. If he really got any proof about nepotism, fraud, or anything like that, he needs to show up or shut up. That's where it's at.. Cuz right now, he's just looking pathetic.

Edited by TheisEjsing
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@Karkarov - did you see Avellone's live-tweet of Feargus' interview on Matt Chat?

Got any links to that? I'm curious.

Unfortunately, it’s kinda tedious to link them all individually. If you scroll back to 2/1/17 in his feed you should be able to find the threads

 

 

It's still a start. :) Thanks!

 

EDIT: Okay, I checked all the hotspots outlined by Chris and... I don't see anything scandalous in the contents of the interview? What's so terrible about, say, the fact that Feargus doesn't sleep over what could have been (specifically, missing the infamous 85% Metacritic bonus)? Am I missing something?

 

Aside from another episode of Chris completely losing his mind over something innocuous, no.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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RPG Codex was one of the communities basically 100% guaranteed to want to believe every part of this. That's why it's there.

 

Aren't they saying we'd be the ones to disbelieve it :p

 

This IS Obsidian's board. That's a fair expectation. But this board seems more apathetic about this subject than anything. I expected to wake up to a much larger thread, but apparently "Chris hates Obsidian" isn't as big a draw on this board as posting "Romance in PoE II".

 

 

Chris has never stated he hates Obsidian. His beef is with 'upper management' and primary Feargus based on what he's posted. With very good reason if what has been said is true.

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Yes, but that would have taken much longer to type and gotten the same point across.


The sky had never seemed so sky, the world had never seemed so world.

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LOL. If Feargus brings her wife to the company and he only gives her minimal wage, or better yet, her salary is deducted from Feargus' pay (which means she doesn't get any salary basicaly), then Feargus is pretty bad at this. Oh wait, he is a saint, so that must be it. You can't be serious that this is the case. Oh, you don't know this either.

Exactly.  I don't know.  Funny, neither do you, neither does Avellone.  So when I point out how it could possibly be benign I am an idiot, because I have no data to prove it, but Avellone claiming it is nepotism and immoral is legit?  Oh wait, he also has no evidence to prove that.

 

You don't talk crap if you have no data to back it up, that was the whole point of my post.  Avellone has a name on a spreadsheet, and gives no context beyond that.  Either because he doesn't have anything else to offer (so no actual data), or because the context would make his point moot so he omits it (data doesn't play into his narrative).

 

See I am a data analyst by trade.  So one person asked what I know about Avellone? A lot actually, because he keeps running his mouth on the internet.  Every time he does it, he does it specifically to hurt his former employer, and he has done it multiple times over multiple years.  That says he holds a grudge, is likely very petty (in his own words he is rich now, it isn't like whatever deal he got from Obsidian actually hurt him), more than likely extremely self centered, and likely has a massive ego. 

 

He also only ever says it on RPG Codex, which tells me more.  It tells me he knows he has no real argument, because if he had real evidence to prove Feargus was unethical he would release it to a real news source.  It tells me he is probably cowardly at heart, because he only ever posts this stuff on Codex, which is the safest space in the internet for Avellone.  On any other forum he might face a critical reception, or hard analysis of what he is actually saying.

 

What do I know about Feargus?  Not much.  He runs a profitable company, he has not risen to the bait and replied to Avellone, his company does in fact do Charity work, and he did expense a big ass party for his team to celebrate a game release because they deserved some reward more than their normal paycheck.  If nothing else that tells me he is at least a decent business man and manager, otherwise Obsidian would not have held on this long.  He gives at least half a crap about his employees, or why give the party?  Also he isn't dumb enough to fall for Avellone's bait, which means he has common sense, and values his companies reputation more than replying to personal attacks.

 

So yeah, if I had to trust one over the other, the data I have says I should trust Feargus.  Unlike Avellone, he has never publicly tried to disparage former coworkers and business partners, or done anything blatantly self serving.  That's good enough data for me.

 

PS: for all of you wondering why RPG Codex not being on this forum much at all anymore is a good thing, look at this thread.  Now make threads like this pop up weekly.  Yeah.

 

So Chris is untrustworthy because he has spoken against his former employer and Feargus is trustworthy, because he did not. Because that's all to it. We haven't seen any evidence that Chris was lying. And before you say it, I know we don't have hard evidence supporting Chris' claims either, that's why we can talk and speculate about it. Or we can just sweep everything under the carpet and call it a day. But what if Chris is telling the truth? Do you really think that everything he told us is just a made up story? You can't really believe that. And even if a fraction of what he was saying is true means that there are serious problems with Obsidian's management. And I'd rather talk about this, them being one of my favourite companies. But being a favourite doesn't mean that I don't care if they do something ****ty.

 

And stop dragging the Codex into this. He was talking about this on the Codex because the Codex bothered to ask. Unlike other magazines and forums who are afraid of asking any hard hitting questions from developers. Just compare a Codex interview with any other. Which one actually asks the more interesing, not watered down questions?

 

No one.  Obsessing over personal melodrama isn't 'interesting' or 'not watered down.'

I'd expect 'any other' interview to focus on games or game development in some way instead.

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RPG Codex was one of the communities basically 100% guaranteed to want to believe every part of this. That's why it's there.

 

Aren't they saying we'd be the ones to disbelieve it :p

 

This IS Obsidian's board. That's a fair expectation. But this board seems more apathetic about this subject than anything. I expected to wake up to a much larger thread, but apparently "Chris hates Obsidian" isn't as big a draw on this board as posting "Romance in PoE II".

 

 

Chris has never stated he hates Obsidian. His beef is with 'upper management' and primary Feargus based on what he's posted. With very good reason if what has been said is true.

 

He doesn't have to state it, it's pretty obvious. Platitudes about how he wishes the poor victim employees the best don't mean much when he's actively hoping they'll sue him and rooting for the company's destruction.

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