Chris Avellone: The Final Frontier

[Mebrilia]

 

I am more concerned about those people that think a former worker speaking bad of who was used to work is bad and is wrong by default but if a company speak bad about one of his former worker is prefectly acceptable. Or the people that thinks some not ethic things are perfectly acceptable because "Business".

Anybody badmouthing anything without a whole lot in the way of evidence is bad by default, pretty much. I mean, I know for a fact you, Mebrilian, murder goats and run about smashing female butts with their severed heads, but I'm not going to spread that stuff around without photos, am I?

 

 

Wrong analogy on so many level the fact that Chris had problems with the upper managment of the Obsidian was not mistery he never went in detail about it before. 

 

But then i been following Chris from a long time and also Obsidian and yes i have to say upper managment in Obsidian had a good track of bad decisions and say what you want but when a talent like Chris Avellone leave a company and then after year comes out explaining why is indicative something went terribly wrong.

 

Losing a talent like Chris is a sign of not so much good competency and beside Chris is still actively working on the industry this should be an indication that other companies are wise enough to bet on him.

 

In the other hand i also have a company like Obsidian that created Pillars of Eternity with the promise to bring back the good old days of classic isometric rpg.. Same company that is splitting now on it declaring Rpg must evolve and who fails to see that is just because is afraid of change.

 

That is an already seen pattern.. Bioware used to declare that when it went down and stopped to do RPG moving in to action games with rpg elements.

 

So i have at a side a person that is coherent and have a great talent to believe in... And in the other hand a Company that is splitting on his fanbase thinking they are close minded and too much traditionalist.

 

Guess who i chose to believe?

[Guest]

Or the people that thinks some not ethic things are perfectly acceptable because "Business".

I’m assuming that “not ethic things” = “unethical behavior”?

 

What exactly is the unethical behavior here?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

What sort of slave mentality is that?

 

Yes go on with that he just produced a rpg with one of the best written story even created at the point that all the time when it comes about story planescape torment always pop up at the top.

 

But hey go on with the delusional fanboysm.

 

i believe a single with a great talent such as him is more safe and sane to believe on him than a corporation political office agenda.

I'm not seeing any fanboyism here (Practically all posters you see here are capable of stern criticism of Obsidian and their games, as has been proven over an over again over the years - heck, some peeps here don't even play them, even mods). In fact, it's plain as day that the only fanboy seemingly slaving under some idol is...well...yourself.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

And since when is Obsidian a political office? 

Edited May 3, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Fenixp]

Losing a talent like Chris is a sign of not so much good competency and beside Chris is still actively working on the industry this should be an indication that other companies are wise enough to bet on him.

 

In the other hand i also have a company like Obsidian that created Pillars of Eternity with the promise to bring back the good old days of classic isometric rpg.. Same company that is splitting now on it declaring Rpg must evolve and who fails to see that is just because is afraid of change.

 

That is an already seen pattern.. Bioware used to declare that when it went down and stopped to do RPG moving in to action games with rpg elements.

 

So i have at a side a person that is coherent and have a great talent to believe in... And in the other hand a Company that is splitting on his fanbase thinking they are close minded and too much traditionalist.

Fair enough, some goats have disappeared from a farm nearby and I know for a fact that women strongly dislike having their butts smashed by severed goat heads (a dislike which had to be cultivated in some way, correct?), which is all proof I need to know for a fact that you murder goats and run about smashing female butts with their severed heads.

[Amentep]

If they'd be frank, they'd look unprofessional and petty. If they'd be professional, they'd look like a big robot company versus a popular indie darling. I can't imagine it changing anybody's mind and will probably both bring more bad publicity either way while bringing legitimacy to Chris' comments. I don't expect them to respond, I don't know what they stand to gain. Also, I'm sure all of them prefer to focus on Deadfire's impending release.

Its a bit of a "when did you stop beating your wife" situation isn't it? 

 

Obsidian says nothing - "They won't address Chris' charges and satisfy the fans! They're evil!"

 

Obsidian denies the claims, generally - "They dare say Chris is a liar! They're evil!" or "They didn't deny all the claims specifically! Chris was right on those claims! They're evil!"

 

Obsidian deny the claims, each one,  line by line - "It's proof they had it in for him! Only a company that hates Chris would put so much effort in to crushing the poor man speaking his feelings! He's a martyr to incline! They're evil!"

 

The only real path is to not engage in it and wish Chris well when asked about it.  Which seems to be what they're doing.

[Mebrilia]

Eh everyone is entitled to his opinion... And my opinion is.. I trust Chris since he never gave reason to doubt about him in past... Unlike Obsidian. And the moderators answers pretty much confirm my standing on it.

 

About the fanboysm comment read back and see how some people just bashed Chris and his Work.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Mebrilia

[Zoraptor]

 

I am more concerned about those people that think a former worker speaking bad of who was used to work is bad and is wrong by default but if a company speak bad about one of his former worker is prefectly acceptable. Or the people that thinks some not ethic things are perfectly acceptable because "Business".

Anybody badmouthing anything without a whole lot in the way of evidence is bad by default, pretty much.

 

 

I'm not actually aware of anyone at Obsidian saying anything bad about Chris publicly anyway. He was pretty much just stereotypically wished luck on his future endeavours and that has been it, so there isn't really anything from that side to believe.

 

Only person connected to Obsidian who gave Chris a bit of a serve was EricF, and only after Chris very unclassily dragged him into the mess in the first place. That's also why no comment is best policy, all Eric's comment got was a bunch more equally unclassy allegations from Chris and an attempt to drag yet another person into it.

 

 

For anyone thinking Chris is at all unemployed, Ghost Story games are the Bioshock guys doing "something" for 2K

 

 

Theoretically that's a great combo, but if there's one guy with worse scoping problems than Chris Avellone it's Ken Levine. His ideas for SS2 went way beyond what was achievable and both Bioshock/ Infinite went through all sorts of revisions and alterations until he had his hand forced to stop tinkering. And while I really like KenL for his vision and ideas even if they don't always work out, and he seems to be very genuine as a person; but his tendency to be... polarising in his management style is pretty legendary.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Like I said, some Chris-bashing here fits right in, as there aren't many Obsidian fanboys here, nor slaving fans of particular devs. It's no surprise at all.

 

Obsidian is a company of dozens and dozens of individuals, fulfilling quite varied roles, so I don't see the point in making simple detrimental remarks of that collective.

[kirottu]

 

These expectations, however, are now apparently in use today, because it’s not what they were about, but who speaks to them – which is a topic for another time. In my opinion, the truest test of a manager is they treat the facts they are evaluating as facts, not judging them based on the person relating those facts. True story from a DS3 designer (who left for Blizzard after Stormlands) - we did one not-so-amusing test of this during Dungeon Siege 3, where we had two people tell Feargus the exact same thing, and he dismissed one out of hand, but gladly listened and agreed with the other – even though they were both telling him the exact same thing. At that point, I did break a little inside, but I added it to my manager post-mortem of what not to do as a manager.

 

Haha, really? This sounds like a poor scientific experiment. What's the lesson here for managers? "If you disagree with one person who comes to you with a problem, you're not allowed to change your mind if more people say the same thing"?

 

I'm about to do some wild speculation and jump in to conclusions, but that's half the fun of being in the internet. Other half being the pr0n of course.

 

Firstly, Davis has had vastly different experience working at Obsidian than Avellone. He tells how management has really helped him when he had family problems.

 

Secondly, this "scientific experiment" Avellone pulled might actually been hurtful. He didn't perceive it as "when we work together we can make Urquhart change his mind" but as "Urquhart plays favorites". This would create tension between the developers and management not to mention between the developers themselves. According to Avellones interpretation your idea was shot down, because of you not because it was a bad idea. And someone elses idea gets accepted, because of them not because it was a good idea. Why wouldn't this create tensions between developers?

 

Thirdly, Avellone says Gonzales and Ziets leaving could have been avoided implying the management was to blame. Davis is a programmer, both of these guys are writers. Avellone was the creative director famous for his writing, meaning he probably worked much more closely with Gonzales and Ziets than Davis. Perhaps Avellone himself created a toxic working environment, without meaning to, with his "experiments" and his interpretations.

 

Maybe Urquhart is simply the kind of guy who gives idea merit based on how many come to talk to him about it. Or maybe he does play favorites. I don't know. I do think this whole thing might have been avoided if Avellone had simply gone to talk to Urquhart instead of making interpretations.

Edited May 3, 2018 by kirottu

[Mebrilia]

I am just smiling until some other details will be revealed then there will be interesting how people will react.

[Skazz]

I am just smiling until some other details will be revealed then there will be interesting how people will react.

 

https://youtu.be/N16G0Bx2auA

[Urthor]

No, but good question.

 

Aside from making up what Obsidian chose to never pay me, I set aside a legal fund to deal with any repercussions, and I will fight anything they bring to the table, tooth and nail. I welcome it.

 

If confronted with evil (as categorized by existing employees who will soon resign - check back in a week or two for the latest round, even though one of them dropped yesterday), I will be prepared to fight it. I guarantee I have more in my bank account than Obsidian does, since they rarely think more than 2 months in advance - and unfortunately, their very, very expensive lawyer charges by the hour, which is unfortunate, but he knows, remora-like, what to attach himself to to get the most financial gain.

 

But it's all okay - Paradox has already been in touch, and they aren't too happy with how Obsidian handled the work they asked for. Future revelations will likely be much more fun than mine.

[Zack Fair]

 

No, but good question.

 

Aside from making up what Obsidian chose to never pay me, I set aside a legal fund to deal with any repercussions, and I will fight anything they bring to the table, tooth and nail. I welcome it.

 

If confronted with evil (as categorized by existing employees who will soon resign - check back in a week or two for the latest round, even though one of them dropped yesterday), I will be prepared to fight it. I guarantee I have more in my bank account than Obsidian does, since they rarely think more than 2 months in advance - and unfortunately, their very, very expensive lawyer charges by the hour, which is unfortunate, but he knows, remora-like, what to attach himself to to get the most financial gain.

 

But it's all okay - Paradox has already been in touch, and they aren't too happy with how Obsidian handled the work they asked for. Future revelations will likely be much more fun than mine.

 

Ouch, this is getting more and more interesting each day.

[Mannock]

 

 

No, but good question.

 

Aside from making up what Obsidian chose to never pay me, I set aside a legal fund to deal with any repercussions, and I will fight anything they bring to the table, tooth and nail. I welcome it.

 

If confronted with evil (as categorized by existing employees who will soon resign - check back in a week or two for the latest round, even though one of them dropped yesterday), I will be prepared to fight it. I guarantee I have more in my bank account than Obsidian does, since they rarely think more than 2 months in advance - and unfortunately, their very, very expensive lawyer charges by the hour, which is unfortunate, but he knows, remora-like, what to attach himself to to get the most financial gain.

 

But it's all okay - Paradox has already been in touch, and they aren't too happy with how Obsidian handled the work they asked for. Future revelations will likely be much more fun than mine.

 

Ouch, this is getting more and more interesting each day.

 

I wouldn't say interesting.

 

Chris seems to wish Obsidian in the gutters, engulfed in legal battles with himself and with Paradox. That would just be awfully depressing. I mean it's hard enough to find good RPG's these days as it is, and it won't be easier with Obsidian gone.

[Lexx]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this development either. Really wish they would all just shut up and do this mudfight in private.

[jf8350143]

Obligations Of Non-Competition is very common in lots of industries, but as far as I know they can't really ban anyone from being in a industry forever, only a certain period of time.

[Aramintai]

You know what I always find hilarious in troll dramas like these? Trolls who desperately try to agitate people everywhere on the internet with statements like "I won't ever buy another game from this company ever again! They're all evil!" and fail. It's always funny to watch how everybody with even half a brain working shrugs them off with indifference.

[Skazz]

You know what I always find hilarious in troll dramas like these? Trolls who desperately try to agitate people everywhere on the internet with statements like "I won't ever buy another game from this company ever again! They're all evil!" and fail. It's always funny to watch how everybody with even half a brain working shrugs them off with indifference.

 

Uh... in this thread? Where?

 

I was under the impression that it's been very civil so far.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Skazz

[Mebrilia]

I told you this was bound to get more interesting 

[Fenixp]

Chris seems to wish Obsidian in the gutters, engulfed in legal battles with himself and with Paradox. That would just be awfully depressing. I mean it's hard enough to find good RPG's these days as it is, and it won't be easier with Obsidian gone.

Well if Obsidian does actually violate employee rights in any meaningful way, I'd say pursuing this via court is the only reasonable way of recourse as status of videogame industry employees is far more important than a company releasing videogames (and I did actually back PoE 2)

 

On the other hand, if this is just a petty attempt at trying to drive a company to bankruptcy by dragging it through courts, that would be a whole bunch of people without work all of the sudden. Don't worry tho - those people won't disappear, and if they love their jobs, they'll make do elsewhere.

[Aramintai]

 

You know what I always find hilarious in troll dramas like these? Trolls who desperately try to agitate people everywhere on the internet with statements like "I won't ever buy another game from this company ever again! They're all evil!" and fail. It's always funny to watch how everybody with even half a brain working shrugs them off with indifference.

 

Uh... in this thread? Where?

 

I was under the impression that it's been very civil so far.

 

Try Steam for example:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/560130/discussions/0/1696046342849684188/

Or even here, lol:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/97124-i-will-never-buy-another-obsidian-game-again-after-hearing-about-the-treatment-of-mca/

 

I bet it's the same number of people from the rpgcodex cesspool trying to spread the word, so to speak. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Aramintai

[Sedrefilos]

What is this RPG Codex anyway? The gossip magazine of rpgs? lol

They interviewd Avellone about the Obsidian situation then came and post it here to make a fuss - rofl.

And expecting our minds to be blown as if they uncovered some worldwide conspiracy :D :D :D

[Aramintai]

What is this RPG Codex anyway? The gossip magazine of rpgs? lol

They interviewd Avellone about the Obsidian situation then came and post it here to make a fuss - rofl.

And expecting our minds to be blown as if they uncovered some worldwide conspiracy :D :D :D

What's more, that interview apparently happened two years ago and only now, when the sequel of the last game MCA worked on is about to be released, they decided to post it. How convenient  . But not unexpected from that site.

[Mannock]

Well if Obsidian does actually violate employee rights in any meaningful way, I'd say pursuing this via court is the only reasonable way of recourse as status of videogame industry employees is far more important than a company releasing videogames (and I did actually back PoE 2)

 

On the other hand, if this is just a petty attempt at trying to drive a company to bankruptcy by dragging it through courts, that would be a whole bunch of people without work all of the sudden. Don't worry tho - those people won't disappear, and if they love their jobs, they'll make do elsewhere.

That is a good point of course. But given the way Chris is posting on RPG Codex, it feels like he's on a crusade where every village and every bridge is being burnt. And given the statements of Fenstermaker and Davis, I'm not quite sure Chris' version is an objective truth, to put things mildly. So in that context, I wish Obsidian won't go under because of this.

[Skazz]

What is this RPG Codex anyway? The gossip magazine of rpgs?

 

Ganrich gave a pretty good and level-headed explanation here.