Why no priests of other deities, such as Rymgand, Abydon or Hylea?

[Boeroer]

Since the Adra Dragon can put her soul into other bodies even over great distances (with the help of an item as an anchor) I think she doesn't plan to die soon but change bodies.

[The Sharmat]

So yeah, we don't know how it works, but we do know that the people who might understand the system aren't worried about "soul heat death" or anything like it.  So we don't really have anything to worry about in modern Eora times.

 

Well you'd have to be pretty crazy to be worried about heat death at the moment in the real world too. It's such an inconceivably long time away. If entropy acts on souls on a similar timescale, they're probably far more immediate apocalypses even on geological time.

 

Since the Adra Dragon can put her soul into other bodies even over great distances (with the help of an item as an anchor) I think she doesn't plan to die soon but change bodies.

Yeah despite what she says, I wouldn't be surprised.

[thelee]

Aside from the lore discussion on rymrgand, I suspect the main reason why we don't see other gods is a) limited time and b) limited design space.

 

I think B is pertinent because we already have some overlap with Eothas and Magran IMO, at least that's the sense I get whenever I'm creating umpteenth priest. In general, the pantheon has quite a bit of fuzzy overlaps in deity portfolios; some examples I can think of: Berath, Eothas, Ondra, and Rymrgand all have some overlap with mortality and bringing about death in ways that can be sometimes super subtle to distinguish; Wael and Ondra can overlap with their portfolios on obscuring/forgetting. I mean, some of this is apparent in how deities are allied with each other, but even then. I have a sense that the five gods in PoE were mostly chosen for the relative ease with which they could be distinguished from each other given the somewhat limited gameplay options. Deadfire affords more opportunity for distinction (with the bonus spells), but they needed continuity with PoE and they are mostly limited on time (plus five options is way more "subclassing" options than most other classes get).

 

Also one thing worth pointing out is that I would not put the deities as any particular form of morality. They are so far removed from day-to-day human norms that one could not really consider something that they themselves do as necessarily good or bad (with possible exception of Eothas, but then again he embodied Waidwen to go on a massive rampage and who knows what he's up to in Deadfire). I say this mostly because of people arguing that Rymrgand is not cruel because entropy is naturalistic. I think that's irrelevant. Followers of Rymrgand interpet Rymrgand how they want, and it personally makes sense to me that compared to the hopefulness of Eothas and the stoic inevitability of Berath, looking forward to the soul heat death of the universe could be channeled into a fairly cruel disposition amongst Rymyrgand's followers (and nihilistic if that were an option).

 

Also in contrast to some prior posters, I personally find Wael to be the most interesting deity, lore-wise. In Deadfire, the fact that you pick up confusion and illusion magic also makes a Wael-ian priest play out pretty interestingly imo.

Edited April 6, 2018 by thelee

[JerekKruger]

Well you'd have to be pretty crazy to be worried about heat death at the moment in the real world too. It's such an inconceivably long time away. If entropy acts on souls on a similar timescale, they're probably far more immediate apocalypses even on geological time.

 

Well the main thing that is required for that to work is a big supply of surplus souls somewhere (the beyond perhaps). Without this not only is population effectively capped, but at the rate we see the negative effects of the fragmenting and recombining of souls (a few generations in many cases) I don't think the large time scales work.

 

Not that I mind all that much. I can suspend my disbelieve. I just like to think about these things.

 

Yeah despite what she says, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I think it's safe to say she isn't entirely trustworthy.

Edited April 6, 2018 by JerekKruger

[JerekKruger]

I think B is pertinent because we already have some overlap with Eothas and Magran IMO, at least that's the sense I get whenever I'm creating umpteenth priest. In general, the pantheon has quite a bit of fuzzy overlaps in deity portfolios; some examples I can think of: Berath, Eothas, Ondra, and Rymrgand all have some overlap with mortality and bringing about death in ways that can be sometimes super subtle to distinguish; Wael and Ondra can overlap with their portfolios on obscuring/forgetting. I mean, some of this is apparent in how deities are allied with each other, but even then.

 

This might be explained somewhat by the fact that (unlike D&D for example) the gods being created means their portfolios aren't some sort of supernatural mandate. They were probably created with a certain personality in mind but then developed their own interests which inevitably overlapped. After all, the wheel predates the gods so the fact several gods take an interest in it isn't that surprising.

[thelee]

 

Well you'd have to be pretty crazy to be worried about heat death at the moment in the real world too. It's such an inconceivably long time away. If entropy acts on souls on a similar timescale, they're probably far more immediate apocalypses even on geological time.

 

Well the main thing that is required for that to work is a big supply of surplus souls somewhere (the beyond perhaps). Without this not only is population effectively capped, but at the rate we see the negative effects of the fragmenting and recombining of souls (a few generations in many cases) I don't think the large time scales work.

 

Not that I mind all that much. I can suspend my disbelieve. I just like to think about these things.

 

Yeah despite what she says, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I think it's safe to say she isn't entirely trustworthy.

 

 

An interesting pickle (when talking about the need for surplus souls) is that with respect to the real world, human population growth was really muted for much of human history. You might get some growth in Europe for a while, and then there will be some cataclysmic plague. Growth in China, and then some natural disaster. Growth in Persia and then massive war. It was only with industrialization that human productivity improved where we started seeing sustained exponential population explosion. Pillars of Eternity is pointedly set at the cusp of industrialization (i.e. renaissance), so it's a world that is not yet set for dramatic population explosion but it could happen. If we're seeing the effects of soul fragmentation now (though there are strong souls out there), it raises questions what an industrialized, booming, modern Eora would be like, even if there is a font from which new souls could come from. I'm guessing animancy would have to play a huge role.

[Karkarov]

An interesting pickle (when talking about the need for surplus souls) is that with respect to the real world, human population growth was really muted for much of human history. You might get some growth in Europe for a while, and then there will be some cataclysmic plague. Growth in China, and then some natural disaster. Growth in Persia and then massive war. It was only with industrialization that human productivity improved where we started seeing sustained exponential population explosion. Pillars of Eternity is pointedly set at the cusp of industrialization (i.e. renaissance), so it's a world that is not yet set for dramatic population explosion but it could happen. If we're seeing the effects of soul fragmentation now (though there are strong souls out there), it raises questions what an industrialized, booming, modern Eora would be like, even if there is a font from which new souls could come from. I'm guessing animancy would have to play a huge role.

That is why it is important we admit that we don't understand how it actually works.

 

I will say we do know the Engwithans were closer to this renaissance than modern Eora is, or at least they appeared to be.  Yet the gods saw fit to step in and mostly blast them to kingdom come.  So there is an argument for your idea.

 

That said you could also argue even if a soul fragments to bits and is no longer whole, those bits can just join other fragments and become new souls, and the durability of souls over time is enough to allow this cycle to basically stay constant and there are always enough souls available.

 

If sawyer wants to lore dump us I doubt anyone would complain

[JerekKruger]

If sawyer wants to lore dump us I doubt anyone would complain 

 

I'd love that but he made it fairly clear he won't, even though this stuff is written down. I can understand why.

[The Sharmat]

This might be explained somewhat by the fact that (unlike D&D for example) the gods being created means their portfolios aren't some sort of supernatural mandate. They were probably created with a certain personality in mind

 

I think Wael exemplifies this. The chief god of learning and scholars is also the god of ignorance and secrets. That's the way you design a pantheon if you don't want people finding uncomfortable answers.

[Boeroer]

On the fragments and the diminishing of souls:

 

Josh also said that souls can grow a lot more powerful over time (see the Watcher level up). So the fracturing only puts those back a bit.

 

If you factor this in it may even be that there is a balance or even a growth of global essence and no diminishing.

[JerekKruger]

I think Wael exemplifies this. The chief god of learning and scholars is also the god of ignorance and secrets. That's the way you design a pantheon if you don't want people finding uncomfortable answers.

He might be the god scholars tend to turn to, but as far as I'm aware he's not the god of scholars per se. He's the god of mysteries and forbidden/hidden knowledge.

[CottonWolf]

As many scholars follow Galawain. He's the god of hunts, both literal and abstract. Research is hunting.

[The Sharmat]

I wonder if it started that way or if people that got frustrated with Wael just went for the only other applicable God, and Galawain decided to expand his portfolio?

Though come to think of it Hylea has creativity and inspiration as one of her spheres. Shouldn't she get some researchers and inventors too?

[injurai]

I personally always saw the god's as non-exhaustive, meaning no matter who you worship the kith spirit will always find itself longer.

[The Sharmat]

I don't follow. What do you mean?

[Seafarer]

I personally would imagine that a priest of "The beast of winter" Would favor Cruel (as nature goes onward) and Stoic, and would likely get access to Decay spells from the Druid list, likely sharing another priests lack of regenerative spells, as he does not heal, but erodes. 

 

Hylea would likely get access to either a chanters ability of phrases, like a bird song and maybe would even have talent in medicine, as many are trained as mid-wives and the like. 

 

Ondra seems to favor stoic, and yet kind individuals, as she seems to at least see herself as fair and helping people by taking away their pain, although she might also be ok with shifty actions in order to have people "forget their pain". I could see her priests having access to a few mind altering abilities to show off the power of forgetting. 

 

And Abydon seems to focus on improvement, helping ones fellow man and making each other better, probably being honorable, benevolent and honest would be the best way to show fealty to him. I imagine he could either offer more protection or buff options or maybe even offer social skills centered around blacksmithing or crafting in social situations.  

 

As for Woedica, she is a little tougher, as she is the god of justice, law and binder of oaths one could assume she would favor honorable conduct and fairness, but... She seems more tyrannical and more of the strong arm of the law, so can't really say what her preferred actions would be. Although I would assume her priests might gain some form of charm/ domination powers or maybe something a bit more martial, like weapon training or fighter abilities. 

 

Just my opinion though.  

[George_Truman]

Here's a go (I tried to make it so there would be no overlap between gods)

 

Rymrgand: +Cruel (apathetic as opposed to sadistic) and Stoic, -Passionate and Benevolent

Access to Frost spells

 

Hylea: +Passionate and Benevolent, -Cruel and Aggresive

Access to Windy spells

 

Abydon: +Honest and Rational, -Deceptive and Passionate(?)

Access to Transmutation spells like vital essence

 

Woedica: +Honest and Aggressive, -Benevolent and Deceptive

Access to Some rogue/paladin/fighter abilities like sworn enemy

 

Ondra: +Angry and Stupid, -Honest and Rational

Access to mind afflictions like Miasma of Dull mindedness.

Edited April 29, 2018 by George_Truman

[Big-Ben]

 

This might be explained somewhat by the fact that (unlike D&D for example) the gods being created means their portfolios aren't some sort of supernatural mandate. They were probably created with a certain personality in mind

 

I think Wael exemplifies this. The chief god of learning and scholars is also the god of ignorance and secrets. That's the way you design a pantheon if you don't want people finding uncomfortable answers.

 

 

Wondering how certain plot points at the end of Pillars will play into the sequel now that you mention this. A great many people in religious roles would want many things kept quiet. Or perhaps I'm cynical. Anyone wonder how it will effect priests moving forward?

[Skazz]

 

 

This might be explained somewhat by the fact that (unlike D&D for example) the gods being created means their portfolios aren't some sort of supernatural mandate. They were probably created with a certain personality in mind

 

I think Wael exemplifies this. The chief god of learning and scholars is also the god of ignorance and secrets. That's the way you design a pantheon if you don't want people finding uncomfortable answers.

 

 

Wondering how certain plot points at the end of Pillars will play into the sequel now that you mention this. A great many people in religious roles would want many things kept quiet. Or perhaps I'm cynical. Anyone wonder how it will effect priests moving forward?

 

 

You assume that the discovery from PoE 1 will end up being some kind of world-shattering truth for the Watcher to unleash on the masses, but it won't. Unless the gods pull off some kind of silly global proclamation ala Discworld's Small Gods, I really can't see it as something that could reasonably stick with anyone but your character.

 

It's not even a question of cynicism. In the end, when you think about it, the first game's revelation really changes nothing for the world at large - because ultimately, what can you do? To me, the end question of PoE 1 (or, well, its central theme, really) was never "How should/could/would [insert answer] change the world?", but "Now that I do know, how do I live with the answer I have been given?"

 

Of course, I could be wrong. Who knows, maybe we will be given the option to literally shout WAKE UP SHEEPLE in every piece of dialogue in the game. Still, given the thematic core of PoE 1, I'd consider that unlikely.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Skazz

[CottonWolf]

Here's a go (I tried to make it so there would be no overlap between gods)

 

Rymrgand: +Cruel (apathetic as opposed to sadistic) and Stoic, -Passionate and Benevolent

Access to Frost spells

 

I'd go Honest rather than Cruel for the reasons discussed on the first page. Nature doesn't hide it's... nature, but it's also not actively malicious, and in game Cruel requires active malevolence.

[The Sharmat]

Rymrgand is actively malicious if you consider wanting to hasten the end of all existence as malicious. Woedica also should be honest + cruel, -deceptive and benevolent I think. I love the idea of a priest of Hylea getting some chanter invocations.

 

I do wonder just how open the Watcher and the returning companions can be about waht they found out at Sun in Shadow. I mean yeah, there's nothing you can do about it, but some people would probably have problems holding their tongue. Especially given one of the new companions is a priest. I can't imagine Pallegina and Xoti will get along, or that any argument between the two can long avoid Pallegina going "Hey you know your God is actually just an animantic construct."

[CottonWolf]

Rymrgand is actively malicious if you consider wanting to hasten the end of all existence as malicious. Woedica also should be honest + cruel, -deceptive and benevolent I think. I love the idea of a priest of Hylea getting some chanter invocations.

 

I'd rather a priest of Hylea straight up gets a selection of chants. That might be too powerful though.