Combat too complex?

[JFutral]

This could just be because I am not a math player like most everyone here seems to be. But combat seems inordinately and unnecessarily complex. I know many here really look for the "balance" and some sort of realistic corollaries with things like recovery (which still baffles me to no end) and interrupts.

 

But even now I am not sure when my character's inaction is a bug or if it is a feature. I watched my paladin last night die as I tried to heal him from another character casting a spell, drink a potion, and even using Second Wind. Nothing took. If he was affected in some way to preclude any of these attempts I couldn't see it.

 

I am still unclear when my character is actually finished with an action and ready for a new "command". I have it set up to pause when action is complete, but the little marching ants marquee is still active around the last action I selected, so I am not sure when I can do something. I am a little tired of interrupting a previous action/command thinking it is done. If the whole shift-select-next-action thing works, I can't tell.

 

Even when all I need my ranger to do is keep shooting arrows, the little three dots pop up as if he is not doing anything. Then I feel like I need to pay unneeded attention to him.

 

It seems like, especially in this recent build EVERYTHING is too slow, not just casting times.

 

Limiting spells for spell casters really throws a wrench in enjoying them, never mind the whole casting time issue. My wizard is better off blasting away with his wand/scepter combo at this point. Why do I have a wizard if that's his best offense?

 

I am a pause player (never really liking what most any AI thinks is important, so I never use it). Sometimes the game keeps going after I hit pause. I am just not sure if that is a computer performance issue, a game performance issue, or a feature of letting certain actions finish before allowing a pause. Between the automatic pauses and my trying to pause everything things get quite comical.

 

I know many of the new features add some depth to skills and abilities, but so far nothing really contributes to a more enjoyable game over PoE I. Not for me anyway.

 

I am still unsure why this whole "Mana pool" thingy for abilities is even necessary. There seems a billion things that nerf their effectiveness anyway, why limit the use of abilities and skills?

 

At least it doesn't seem like my potion quaffing doesn't get constantly interrupted like it used to.

 

Anyway. Just  a rant. Maybe the full game will make things clearer and this is just the effect of such a limited campaign in the beta. Maybe I just need to put the beta away for a little while.

 

I am finding less and less to enjoy about this game.

 

Thanks for listening,

Joe

[Boeroer]

Same here!

 

The calculation of recovery speed alone is such an overly complicated coleslaw with double inversion and whatnot...

 

Casting times, per-encounter spells, endless recovery, rather complicated penetration mechanics, totally useless weapon modals... all that stuff makes this beta inferior to PoE - at least for me.

 

Just doesn't feel right. Maybe it's nostalgia or because I'm so used to play PoE that I'm totally biased - but at the current state it's just no fun. I really have to push myself to play it which was never the case with PoE.

[AndreaColombo]

Even when all I need my ranger to do is keep shooting arrows, the little three dots pop up as if he is not doing anything. Then I feel like I need to pay unneeded attention to him.

 

I am a pause player (never really liking what most any AI thinks is important, so I never use it). Sometimes the game keeps going after I hit pause. I am just not sure if that is a computer performance issue, a game performance issue, or a feature of letting certain actions finish before allowing a pause. Between the automatic pauses and my trying to pause everything things get quite comical.

 

I believe if you turn off A.I. completely, your characters will do nothing (including auto-attacking) unless specifically instructed to do so by the player. If you want them to auto-attack without your input, you need to turn on A.I. (there should be some basic presets that only flee or auto-attack? Can't remember off the top of my head.)

 

As for the pause issue, my best guess is that you hit pause right after the game's auto-pausing because an ability is complete. It happened to me a number of times in PoE1—I just wanted to pause and hit the bar right when the game did it for me, nullifying it.

 

I agree on most other points.

 

A couple extra thoughts:

 

Concentration

 

You either have it or you don't, but it's very important especially for casters and not easy to come by for all classes.

 

Ciphers, for example, don't have access to a quick source of Concentration at the beginning of the game.

 

I understand the purpose of this system is to add depth, but to add depth you need to enable to player to do things within the system. If Concentration is important and I can't get it, all it does is frustrate me.

 

Giving access to sources of Concentration gives me a choice of whether to pick that particular ability, and whether and when to use it in combat instead of another. It enables me to actually do something about the interrupts system.

 

 

AR/Penetration.

 

Likewise.

 

It seems to me like the standard when facing an enemy at about your level is to under-penetrate by at least 1—sometimes even if you're a class with penetration bonuses like Devoted or Berserker (which put other classes at -3; pretty harsh.)

 

If the purpose is that we need to either buff ourselves or debuff our enemies to penetrate or over-penetrate, that's fine—give me access to buffs/debuffs that do that. Right now, you either have a Chanter with the invocation that debuffs enemy AR, or you play either Devoted or Berserker and suck up the 1 point of under-penetration.

 

You can't add systems to add depth if you don't provide players with the means to play those systems. If buffing/debuffing is meant to have such a meaningful role, there should be varied buffs/debuffs available to all classes. Either that or penetrating should be the standard against enemies of your level unless they're bosses.

Edited February 12, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[JFutral]

I believe if you turn off A.I. completely, your characters will do nothing (including auto-attacking) unless specifically instructed to do so by the player. If you want them to auto-attack without your input, you need to turn on A.I. (there should be some basic presets that only flee or auto-attack? Can't remember off the top of my head.)

 

As for the pause issue, my best guess is that you hit pause right after the game's auto-pausing because an ability is complete. It happened to me a number of times in PoE1—I just wanted to pause and hit the bar right when the game did it for me, nullifying it.

 

 

I do get that. usually if I have a character doing basic fighting they continue until the enemy is dead. And I am talking about a single target that hasn't been killed off yet. Only the ranger and occasionally a ranged rogue seems to have the three dots pop up before the target is killed and I need to retarget. I don't know if these three dots are part of recovery or telling me "If you want to retarget or have your guy do something else, now's your chance!" Or if he just stopped, which has happened before, to much frustration. If I don't get to him, he sometimes picks back up shooting arrows. I just can't tell.

 

Oh, yeah. The pause/pause thing is exactly that. I kind of wish when I hit the space bar it served as an override for all automated functions, too. But like I said it is pretty comical.

 

"Pause. No, really PAUSE! D'oh!"

 

But sometimes it really does take  a second for the pause to kick in.

 

Joe

Edited February 12, 2018 by JFutral

[MaxQuest]

Balance and formulas aside, I feel that current combat is a bit... erattic. And am still getting used to it.

Everything feels both too slow and too fast at the same time; if it makes any sense.

You try to cast a charm or paralyze, and it is soo slow. Non dual-wielding characters often feeling sitting there in a long long recovery. At the same time, there are two lagufaeth wizards standing far on a cliff. Bam, 2 necrotic lances, and your beguiler is on the floor.

The running speed in combat is too fast as well. It feels a bit chaotic.

And unpredictable. Will my cc hit, or I just wasted 5s on cast, and will have to sit through 2s of recovery before attempting again? Maybe it was just better to build a second auto-attacker? Wait, why is my dps-paladin showing (3 dots) again? I have ordered him to FoD that lizzard, and was expecting that he will continue auto-attacking it.

 

The thing is that PoE1 combat was polished. While Deadfire combat is raw, and there are many little things that break our 'veteran' tactics from PoE1, making reality not matching expectations.

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

That doesn't sound good, combat wasn't even a strong point for PoE 1 in my opinion. It was ok but not exactly great. Has it become even less "fun" in comparison to PoE 1 ?

[Boeroer]

Combat movement speed compared to combat action speed: I totally agree.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Combat seems inordinately and unnecessarily complex.

 

True, and the only real remedy would be simpler numbers and much clearer feedback during combat.

 

 

I am not sure when my character's inaction is a bug or if it is a feature. I watched my paladin last night die as I tried to heal him from another character casting a spell, drink a potion, and even using Second Wind. Nothing took. If he was affected in some way to preclude any of these attempts I couldn't see it.

 

Once again, lack of clear at-a-glance feedback is the culprit.

 

 

I am still unclear when my character is actually finished with an action and ready for a new "command". I have it set up to pause when action is complete, but the little marching ants marquee is still active around the last action I selected, so I am not sure when I can do something. I am a little tired of interrupting a previous action/command thinking it is done. If the whole shift-select-next-action thing works, I can't tell.

 

The system in itself seems to trip itself up, so even if feedback during combat was crystal clear and all the auto-pausing worked like a charm, we would probably still see inexplicable inconsistencies. 

 

 

I am still unsure why this whole "Mana pool" thingy for abilities is even necessary. There seems a billion things that nerf their effectiveness anyway, why limit the use of abilities and skills?

So am I, and I'd like to add that our ability to empower seems just as arbitrary, redundant and futile at the moment, although the effect sometimes is considerable.

 

 

[rothamon81]

Having Lagufaeth as enemies for a start, well, there is a reason I hated them the most (well, and the perma-paralyzing ghosts), they have ridiculous speed. But I do like complexity, I'm blaming the underequippedness and those tremendously bad rolled mercenaries (all single class!!). Everytime I try to roll my own group the game somehow crashes.

[hilfazer]

Combat too complex!

Let's reduce max party size to 4.

[Cdiaz]

This could just be because I am not a math player like most everyone here seems to be. But combat seems inordinately and unnecessarily complex. I know many here really look for the "balance" and some sort of realistic corollaries with things like recovery (which still baffles me to no end) and interrupts.

 

But even now I am not sure when my character's inaction is a bug or if it is a feature. I watched my paladin last night die as I tried to heal him from another character casting a spell, drink a potion, and even using Second Wind. Nothing took. If he was affected in some way to preclude any of these attempts I couldn't see it.

 

I am still unclear when my character is actually finished with an action and ready for a new "command". I have it set up to pause when action is complete, but the little marching ants marquee is still active around the last action I selected, so I am not sure when I can do something. I am a little tired of interrupting a previous action/command thinking it is done. If the whole shift-select-next-action thing works, I can't tell.

 

Even when all I need my ranger to do is keep shooting arrows, the little three dots pop up as if he is not doing anything. Then I feel like I need to pay unneeded attention to him.

 

It seems like, especially in this recent build EVERYTHING is too slow, not just casting times.

 

Limiting spells for spell casters really throws a wrench in enjoying them, never mind the whole casting time issue. My wizard is better off blasting away with his wand/scepter combo at this point. Why do I have a wizard if that's his best offense?

 

I am a pause player (never really liking what most any AI thinks is important, so I never use it). Sometimes the game keeps going after I hit pause. I am just not sure if that is a computer performance issue, a game performance issue, or a feature of letting certain actions finish before allowing a pause. Between the automatic pauses and my trying to pause everything things get quite comical.

 

I know many of the new features add some depth to skills and abilities, but so far nothing really contributes to a more enjoyable game over PoE I. Not for me anyway.

 

I am still unsure why this whole "Mana pool" thingy for abilities is even necessary. There seems a billion things that nerf their effectiveness anyway, why limit the use of abilities and skills?

 

At least it doesn't seem like my potion quaffing doesn't get constantly interrupted like it used to.

 

Anyway. Just  a rant. Maybe the full game will make things clearer and this is just the effect of such a limited campaign in the beta. Maybe I just need to put the beta away for a little while.

 

I am finding less and less to enjoy about this game.

 

Thanks for listening,

Joe

Hey Joe!

 

Thank you very much for your input. For me, I can say that even working on the game there are times things go over my head, even after getting an in depth answer from the team, so don't let it get to you! We are definitely taking a close look at combat and the feedback given from the community. I commend you on the post, and will pass the info along to the devs concerning combat. If you have anything else you want to address, please feel free to do so. We're listening

 

Thanks!

 

-Caleb

[JFutral]

The thing is that PoE1 combat was polished. While Deadfire combat is raw, and there are many little things that break our 'veteran' tactics from PoE1, making reality not matching expectations.

 

Yeah, I get that some of this is still being figured out in light that some of the foundational elements have changed dramatically, or at least they seem to have changed dramatically (health/endurance, AR, penetration). Everything affects everything.

 

For the longest time I kept trying to figure out why my characters needed a pen while fighting. Were they trying to sign a contract or something?

 

"No pen"?

 

WTF?

 

"I know they say the pen is mightier than the sword, but right now I need you to use your sword!"

 

Joe

[vanyel54]

Everything feels both too slow and too fast at the same time; if it makes any sense.

 

My exact feeling !

With the multi-class and per-encounter abilities, I feel we have a lot more to do and follow. 

Then add the new penetration system... Strange to aim to make the game more readable/fun and at the same time add a layer of complexity.

[Gfted1]

Yeah, I couldn't "get it" either with PoE 1 hence my lack of purchasing PoE 2. I fully accept the problem is me, but man, Obs is pretty much diametrically opposed to the things I like in gaming.

[FreeKaner]

A good part of your complaints seem like GUI issues and balance issues rather than complexity issues. The game mechanics are streamlined and straightforward. 

[lekkercobus]

A good part of your complaints seem like GUI issues and balance issues rather than complexity issues. The game mechanics are streamlined and straightforward. 

 

Your post is on some level of irony I haven't achieved yet.

[IndiraLightfoot]

A good part of your complaints seem like GUI issues and balance issues rather than complexity issues. The game mechanics are streamlined and straightforward. 

They are just as streamlined and straightforward as the Riemann hypothesis... 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95636-please-obsidz-give-us-in-game-access-to-exhaustive-combat-mechanics-info/

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Boeroer]

The game mechanics are streamlined and straightforward.

ROFL - good one!

 

Please explain the attack speed calculation, then the mechanics of lashes, then the calculation of damage rolls and then repeat your statement.

[Sedrefilos]

So, a month and a half before release and after 3 beta patches we're not sure yet why so many dramatic changes to a previously working system. That's nice to hear...

[bonarbill]

,

Edited February 13, 2018 by bonarbill

[SkySlam]

The thing is that PoE1 combat was polished. While Deadfire combat is raw, and there are many little things that break our 'veteran' tactics from PoE1, making reality not matching expectations.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

After completing the beta a couple of times, these days I'm replaying PoE1. I'm having a blast! The combat is so incredibly polished and FUN! I wish I could multiclass there, instead of in Deadfire.

It's unfair to compare version 3.0+ to a raw beta, but for sure in Deadfire we are going to have a lot to get used to.

I still don't understand why they had to go to such lenghts to change the combat. It will take them at least a year to balance/fix it WHILE keeping it fun.

[the_dog_days]

 

The thing is that PoE1 combat was polished. While Deadfire combat is raw, and there are many little things that break our 'veteran' tactics from PoE1, making reality not matching expectations.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

After completing the beta a couple of times, these days I'm replaying PoE1. I'm having a blast! The combat is so incredibly polished and FUN! I wish I could multiclass there, instead of in Deadfire.

It's unfair to compare version 3.0+ to a raw beta, but for sure in Deadfire we are going to have a lot to get used to.

I still don't understand why they had to go to such lenghts to change the combat. It will take them at least a year to balance/fix it WHILE keeping it fun.

 

 

The problem is that some of the changes are due to foreseen balancing problems with multiclassing while others are due to mixed feedback on POE1. They got rid of graze, endurance, engagements, changed casting times, and got rid of slow mode in response to feedback.

[Sedrefilos]

Well changing a "complicated" system with another complicated system doesen't usually make it. If your first system was too complicated (as supposedly feedback said) then you simplify parts of it, stremaline some things, you work on it; you don't switch it with another equally (if not more?) complicated one!

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[AndreaColombo]

Gotta agree with the general sentiment, here.

 

While I do believe the Deadfire system too has the potential to become interesting and enjoyable, there was no need to reinvent the wheel as much as this game did.

 

Introducing changes of this magnitude obviously means going through the whole bug-fixing and iteration process again, and it'll likely take until patch 3.0 again to get it right. Lots of extra work that wasn't really necessary, imo.

[Sedrefilos]

Lots of extra work that wasn't really necessary, imo.

But dem feedbacks said...