Can Single Class Compete Under Current Sytem

[Raenvan]

Do Resistances make any classes really overpowered at low levels? If yes, why not assigning some odds to them that scale with power level? (Otherwise multiclasses wouldn't be affected so much, I guess.)

[blotter]

Do Resistances make any classes really overpowered at low levels? If yes, why not assigning some odds to them that scale with power level? (Otherwise multiclasses wouldn't be affected so much, I guess.)

 

Multiclass characters can't even get class-based passives that provide resistances until level 10 at the earliest (barring console hijinks) in most cases since they don't become available until power level 4. One Dozen Stood Against the Power of a Saint is a notable exception, though, since it's power level 2 and thus available to multi-class characters at level 4 rather than 10.

 

I'd also question the inclusion of resistance abilities among the "really good passives": one of the main advantages of resistances would seem to be that they prevent a character from ever suffering from a tier 3 affliction tied to the attribute they have resistance for, but on the other hand, inspirations of any tier can counter afflictions of any tier and vice versa (e.g., a tier 1 Resolve inspiration can cancel out a tier 3 Resolve affliction) so they're comparatively easy to block or remove anyway.

 

+1 engagement doesn't seem particularly impressive to me either compared to class passives like Sneak Attack/Backstab, Soul Whip/Biting Whip, or Faith and Devotion, which are amenable to adjustment based on power level.

 

Perhaps another way to ensure meaningful advantages based on power level is to reduce ability resource costs when the user's power level is high enough above the power level of the ability being used. For example, Into the Fray could cost 1 Discipline rather than 2 when a fighter's power level is 4; a single class fighter would have that benefit three levels before a multiclass one would, and as this applies to abilities with higher power levels, the single level character would eventually gain access to ability usage cost reductions that multiclass characters never would (or would only at the highest levels). Something different would have to be worked out for druids, priests, and wizards, of course.

Edited January 23, 2018 by blotter

[Gromnir]

I've finally got to spend some time with the beta and single class is viable but not competitive with some of the multi class synergies.

 

this is our conclusion as well... which is why some o' the proposed fixes make no sense to us.  single classes is already viable, and in some cases is quite strong.  if a deadfire beta player never multiclassed, they would likely be baffled by the claims o' single class weakness.  powering up the single classes is unnecessary given their current viability.  as such it should be axiomatic a power up of the single classes is gonna result in further multiclass disparity and not less. powerup the single classes is gonna result in an increase in the multiclass synergie issue, not lessen it.  is never popular, but what is called for in this situation is selective and specific nerfs rather than generalized powerups. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  if any generalized cross-class fix is required, is a nerf as 'posed to power up.  unfortunate, such fixes is tending to be mighty unpopular.  

Edited January 23, 2018 by Gromnir

[SaruNi]

You don't think the high-level passives are powerful? Driving Flight, Interrupting Blows, Deep Wounds / Adept Evasion / Persistent Distraction, upgraded Fighter stance that causes prone when enemies try to disengage, Paladin passive that removes confused/charmed/dominated from all o party for successful unarmed attack... resistances that not only prevent Stunned / Paralyzed / Dominated (though Dominated gets downgraded to Charmed, which is still bad...) through downgrading, but also completely nullify tier 1 afflictions.  

 

With limited selection and limited use of spells/abilities it doesn't seem so easy to expect to counter all afflictions with inspirations, though I haven't tried yet... is that your in-game experience? 

 

(Sure, multiclass characters will eventually get the tier 5 passives, but there are probably even more powerful higher-tier passives that they won't get.)

Edited January 24, 2018 by SaruNi

[blotter]

You don't think the high-level passives are powerful? Interrupting Blows, Deep Wounds, upgraded Fighter stance that causes prone when enemies try to disengage, Paladin passive that removes confused/charmed/dominated from all o party for successful unarmed attack... resistances that not only prevent Stunned / Paralyzed / Dominated (though Dominated gets downgraded to Charmed, which is still bad...) through downgrading, but also completely nullify tier 1 afflictions.  

 

With limited selection and limited use of spells/abilities it doesn't seem so easy to expect to counter all afflictions with inspirations, though I haven't tried yet... is that your in-game experience? 

 

I'm not sure this is directed at me since I never said that high level passives aren't powerful, but the part about resistances and countering afflictions seems to suggest that it is so I'll respond under that assumption.

 

About resistances, I was addressing whether they make multiclass characters overpowered at low levels. They don't, since these characters don't even gain access to them until level 10 in most cases. Further, questioning whether resistance passives belong at the top of a list of passives, as would be suggested by a statement such as "the really good passives", isn't equivalent to saying that I think that they aren't powerful at all. These passives are certainly more reliable than countering afflictions with inspirations and they free up resources that would otherwise have to be spent dealing with afflictions.

 

And yeah, I doubt it is all that easy to counter all possible afflictions through ability/spell selection alone. But the methods to deal with afflictions don't necessarily end there: scrolls/Arcana may help, as may potions and equipment. For example, the beta allows us access to some bracers that grant Dexterity resistance, if memory serves. Resistance passives are more effortless, again freeing up resources/slots, and more long-term for sure, but given the number of alternatives available even at this point in the beta, let alone later on in the game, I definitely question whether these abilities are top-tier.

[SaruNi]

It seemed like potions and drugs specifically avoided granting inspirations or resistance to afflictions (or are there some that do?). 

 

In the final game it does seem likely that there will be many equippable items for resistances or bonus defense, but at the cost of other significant bonuses. Single-class fighter or paladin with the passives will have a much easier time getting resistance to all the tier three afflictions. (Resistance obviously has the benefit of not having to worry about your "suppress affliction / inspiration" caster getting CC'd and being unable to cast. Again with exception of Charmed....)

 

It seems extremely likely that the corresponding highest-tier passives will include stronger resistance (or at least prevent Charmed) and eventually immunity.

 

[Edit: Resistance / immunity also has the advantage of not being vulnerable to Arcane Dampener or its equivalent.]

Edited January 24, 2018 by SaruNi

[blotter]

It seemed like potions and drugs specifically avoided granting inspirations or resistance to afflictions (or are there some that do?). 

You're right about potions as far as I can tell for my brief trip back to Vektor's shop and since drugs are affected by the same skill, I suspect you're right about them as well. I'm not sure how it'll work for scrolls in the end - they don't seem to differ all that much from the spells they're based on from what I've seen, and I remember reading somewhere that they weren't actually scaling based on Arcana, but they could exclude inspiration spells from having scroll equivalents. Potions and drugs could still cover for tier 1 afflictions somewhat by offsetting their penalties without eliminating the afflictions themselves, but by tier 2 that won't really cut it, I agree.

 

If it turns out that there are no scrolls that dole out inspirations then that drastically cuts down on the options available to step in for those talents. Pillars 1 had a bunch of "Prayer Against _" type scrolls though, so we might see something similar for Deadfire. 

 

 

In the final game it does seem likely that there will be many equippable items for resistances or bonus defense, but at the cost of other significant bonuses.

 

 

Sure. I said as much twice in my last post. My point still isn't that resistance talents are useless or redundant. There are obvious advantages to having them, but the same way that having them can free up slots and resources, not having them and depending on less effective but still useful options may be desirable as a way to free up points for other abilities that players may want more. If an ability is frequently passed over for other choices, that suggests to me, again, that it's not a top-tier ability.

[SaruNi]

 

It seemed like potions and drugs specifically avoided granting inspirations or resistance to afflictions (or are there some that do?). 

You're right about potions as far as I can tell for my brief trip back to Vektor's shop and since drugs are affected by the same skill, I suspect you're right about them as well. I'm not sure how it'll work for scrolls in the end - they don't seem to differ all that much from the spells they're based on from what I've seen, and I remember reading somewhere that they weren't actually scaling based on Arcana, but they could exclude inspiration spells from having scroll equivalents. Potions and drugs could still cover for tier 1 afflictions somewhat by offsetting their penalties without eliminating the afflictions themselves, but by tier 2 that won't really cut it, I agree.

 

If it turns out that there are no scrolls that dole out inspirations then that drastically cuts down on the options available to step in for those talents. Pillars 1 had a bunch of "Prayer Against _" type scrolls though, so we might see something similar for Deadfire. 

 

 

In the final game it does seem likely that there will be many equippable items for resistances or bonus defense, but at the cost of other significant bonuses.

 

 

Sure. I said as much twice in my last post. My point still isn't that resistance talents are useless or redundant. There are obvious advantages to having them, but the same way that having them can free up slots and resources, not having them and depending on less effective but still useful options may be desirable as a way to free up points for other abilities that players may want more. If an ability is frequently passed over for other choices, that suggests to me, again, that it's not a top-tier ability.

 

 

From a quick glance at the scrolls (using findgamedata), there is no scroll of suppress affliction, but there are a few scrolls that grant inspirations:

Scroll of Blessing (Insightful, 1.6 second cast, 3 second recovery)

Scroll of Prayer for the Body (Fit, 1.6s cast, 2s recovery)

Scroll of Prayer for the Spirit (Smart, 1.6s cast, 2s recovery)

 

That leaves 3 affliction types undefended. And the scrolls still have significant cast/recovery times.

 

findgamedata does have references to other scrolls that currently seem inaccessible and higher level---Garden of Life, Weal and Woe. However it seems likely that all (or at least most) of the intended scrolls up to 5th level are already there.

 

What I meant to add or clarify wrt equippables is that because the resistances (or probable immunities) are high-tier, the corresponding equippables will likely be also high-tier, meaning we'll have to sacrifice very powerful alternative equippables. Even if you don't consider resistance/immunity top tier, the equippables will probably treat those abilities as if they were top tier. But sure  if you can get "good enough" without using any equippables at all that might be preferable. We'll have to see once there are more items like that.

[SaruNi]

Ah, turns out there *are* potions that grant resistance to afflictions:

 

Potion of the Resililent Body---Strength / Constitution / Dexterity

Potion of the Resilient Spirit---Int/Res/Per

 

Potions seem due for a nerfing though. They're generally much better than class abilities even without high alchemy---and when you add in scaling from alchemy they seem probably OP.

Edited January 24, 2018 by SaruNi

[blotter]

From a quick glance at the scrolls (using findgamedata), there is no scroll of suppress affliction, but there are a few scrolls that grant inspirations:

Scroll of Blessing (Insightful, 1.6 second cast, 3 second recovery)

Scroll of Prayer for the Body (Fit, 1.6s cast, 2s recovery)

Scroll of Prayer for the Spirit (Smart, 1.6s cast, 2s recovery)

 

That leaves 3 affliction types undefended. And the scrolls still have significant cast/recovery times.

 

Good to know, though depending on the player's choice of race/subrace, that alone may allow a character to cover varying levels of defense against four out of six affliction types. Throw in a class ability that grants an appropriate Inspiration as well, and that's five out six affliction types that you have defenses for. Weaker defenses than resistance equivalents overall, and there may be situations where the downsides of the alternatives make the difference between life and death for one or more characters during a fight, but it might be enough for players to gamble on pretty effectively.

 

As for how highly they'll value resistance as a feature on equippable items and how dramatic this will make the tradeoffs for using items that grant them vs other items, you could be right; equipment may well end up being the least desirable way to shore up these defenses precisely because of the items they keep you from being able to use. It's also possible that Suppress Affliction will never have a scroll version, which could leave serious gaps in scroll-based defenses against afflictions. We'll have to see.

 

Ah, turns out there *are* potions that grant resistance to afflictions:

 

Potion of the Resililent Body---Strength / Constitution / Dexterity

Potion of the Resilient Spirit---Int/Res/Per

 

Potions seem due for a nerfing though. They're generally much better than class abilities even without high alchemy---and when you add in scaling from alchemy they seem probably OP.

 

Interesting that potions do provide some options here after all, but even setting aside the prospect of nerfing, those two seem like they'd be pretty advanced items. Crafting expenses and/or scarcity of required resources may prevent potions like this from being made or used too frequently.

 

Did you find anything for potions of recovery? They were something else that came to mind from Pillars 1 that seem relevant to the subject of resistances vs consumables and affliction management in general.

[Raenvan]

Do Resistances make any classes really overpowered at low levels? If yes, why not assigning some odds to them that scale with power level? (Otherwise multiclasses wouldn't be affected so much, I guess.)

Multiclass characters can't even get class-based passives that provide resistances until level 10 at the earliest (barring console hijinks) in most cases since they don't become available until power level 4. One Dozen Stood Against the Power of a Saint is a notable exception, though, since it's power level 2 and thus available to multi-class characters at level 4 rather than 10.

 

Perfectly agree. I asked about low-level abilities specifically, because usually those make multiclasses superior. Medium level abilities matter much less by definition, since multiclasses get them only several levels later.

 

+1 engagement doesn't seem particularly impressive to me either compared to class passives like Sneak Attack/Backstab, Soul Whip/Biting Whip, or Faith and Devotion, which are amenable to adjustment based on power level.

 

powerup the single classes is gonna result in an increase in the multiclass synergie issue, not lessen it.  is never popular, but what is called for in this situation is selective and specific nerfs rather than generalized powerups. 

 

These can form the core list of passives that should be rationalized first. I'd add Barbarian's Carnage, and Berserker's inspirations that grant extra penetration and/or armor rating given their primary importance. Since all of these abilities are obtained at low levels, the only option to introduce power level scaling is to reduce their initial effects. On later levels, however, they could scale up to (or even exceed) the current bonuses.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Raenvan

[Rafael Braga]

There are 3 things making multiclass a mess right now, and 2 of them are due to arbitrary changes:

1 - The concept of power level. Power level is a concept that was created form where you could possible have like 10 classes at the same time if you want. Then for design purpose they decided to limit to only 2 clases, but for some reason, instead of creating a fixed rate, they chose to keep this concept.
2 - The lack of neutral talents
3 - The change to armor/protection system.

Introduce neutral talents back at 1 every even level(2,4,6...)

Create an ability tree based on multiclass of 2 classes, considering "power levels" as they were on PoE1, just delaying aquisition on new abilities. For example, at level 1 you get everything from your first class, at level 2 you get a talent(neutral) and everything of your second class level 1. Then you get first class, second class, both, and repeat, that mean you will access to a new tier of spells/abilities every 3 levels after the second, but since you get most of your abilities at level 1, it will delay a little in the beginning to compensate the plentora of passive abilities.

Use amor/protection exaclty as in PoE1... get rid of penetration, FOREVER, never again try to balance for it.

Test it out. I am sure there will still be a little power combos here and there, but i doubt there will be nearly as unbalanced as now. (For example, Cypher/Rogue will still have godly damage, but will be king of squish, and a lot more MAD than a rogue and squishier than a cypher, with delayed access to very good high level abilites from both classes). A paladin wizard? Excellent, but you will only get DaoM at level 8 and the paladin AoE at level 20... Suppa AOE Paladin/Chanter? Sorry, Dragon Trashed only at 14 Pal AoE at 20. Seems VERY balanced to me.

Sometimes making changes for the sake of change doesnt result in the best experience.

[Gary1986]

Wizard/Druid seems like it would be the obvious choice over a single class Wizard. I know you will miss out on a few higher level spells, but if you are a Wizard/Druid and a few enemies come around your front guys and start attacking you, you can just flick that spiritshift button and your're now a melee char for awhile till you deal with the current danger.

 

It feels like it will just take the danger out of having/being a wizard.

[SaruNi]

Wizard/Druid seems like it would be the obvious choice over a single class Wizard. I know you will miss out on a few higher level spells, but if you are a Wizard/Druid and a few enemies come around your front guys and start attacking you, you can just flick that spiritshift button and your're now a melee char for awhile till you deal with the current danger.

 

It feels like it will just take the danger out of having/being a wizard.

 

Maybe in the very early levels. But by level 6 (where the beta starts) Wizards have great defense against weapon attacks---not so much from switching spell damage to resolve (which increases deflection), but from fast cast spells like Arcane Veil (+50 deflection for a long time), Wizard's Double (+40), Mirrored Image (+30)... and most attacks can't interrupt casting. There's also a 4th level teleport spell that stuns enemies in its path. And Deleterious Alacrity of Motion makes Wizards immune to engagement.

 

OTOH, a Wizard/Druid using spiritshift for melee damage is going to need Strength. Spell accuracy is very low against most enemies, and most spells have long casting times, so Dexterity and Perception are very important. Any spells with AoE or duration need Intelligence. So if you want to do good spell damage *and* good melee damage, you may have to dump Constitution... making your character much less survivable, even with the Bear's armor or the Stag's defensive bonus. Whereas a pure caster Wizard can dump Strength and max Resolve.

Edited January 27, 2018 by SaruNi

[Gary1986]

 

Wizard/Druid seems like it would be the obvious choice over a single class Wizard. I know you will miss out on a few higher level spells, but if you are a Wizard/Druid and a few enemies come around your front guys and start attacking you, you can just flick that spiritshift button and your're now a melee char for awhile till you deal with the current danger.

 

It feels like it will just take the danger out of having/being a wizard.

 

Maybe in the very early levels. But by level 6 (where the beta starts) Wizards have great defense against weapon attacks---not so much from switching spell damage to resolve (which increases deflection), but from fast cast spells like Arcane Veil (+50 deflection for a long time), Wizard's Double (+40), Mirrored Image (+30)... and most attacks can't interrupt casting. There's also a 4th level teleport spell that stuns enemies in its path. And Deleterious Alacrity of Motion makes Wizards immune to engagement.

 

OTOH, a Wizard/Druid using spiritshift for melee damage is going to need Strength. Spell accuracy is very low against most enemies, and most spells have long casting times, so Dexterity and Perception are very important. Any spells with AoE or duration need Intelligence. So if you want to do good spell damage *and* good melee damage, you may have to dump Constitution... making your character much less survivable, even with the Bear's armor or the Stag's defensive bonus. Whereas a pure caster Wizard can dump Strength and max Resolve.

 

 

 

Cheers for the response.

 

I was also wondering though, the main point people make is ''single class characters gets 8th and 9th level abilities, multiclass characters dont''

 

That is true, but people are missing the point that single class characters wont reach these 8th and 9th level abilities till 75% into the game. Then when you finally get your first 8th level ability point to spend when you are 75% into the game, you then have to wait until you are around 79% into the game to get your next point and so on and so forth. By the time you reach your 9th level abilities and can spend that first point in that section of abilities you will be like 90% into the game? I mean sure this is all conjecture but you can surely see what im getting at right? If the bonus for being a single class character is the 8th and 9th level abilities, lets not act like we see this bonus from the start of the game. For the majority of the game single class and multi class have the same thing in common, no access to 8th and 9th level abilities.

 

Also on a side note, what level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter can compare with going multiclass fighter/cipher and getting soul whip 20% dmg from the start, and then a level or so later getting biting whip for another 20% dmg, plus all the nice abilities you will get to pick and choose from from the cipher ability tree? Sure i havent played the beta but i just cant see level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter being worth it when you have the option of multiclass fighter/cipher.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gary1986

[SaruNi]

 

 

Wizard/Druid seems like it would be the obvious choice over a single class Wizard. I know you will miss out on a few higher level spells, but if you are a Wizard/Druid and a few enemies come around your front guys and start attacking you, you can just flick that spiritshift button and your're now a melee char for awhile till you deal with the current danger.

 

It feels like it will just take the danger out of having/being a wizard.

 

Maybe in the very early levels. But by level 6 (where the beta starts) Wizards have great defense against weapon attacks---not so much from switching spell damage to resolve (which increases deflection), but from fast cast spells like Arcane Veil (+50 deflection for a long time), Wizard's Double (+40), Mirrored Image (+30)... and most attacks can't interrupt casting. There's also a 4th level teleport spell that stuns enemies in its path. And Deleterious Alacrity of Motion makes Wizards immune to engagement.

 

OTOH, a Wizard/Druid using spiritshift for melee damage is going to need Strength. Spell accuracy is very low against most enemies, and most spells have long casting times, so Dexterity and Perception are very important. Any spells with AoE or duration need Intelligence. So if you want to do good spell damage *and* good melee damage, you may have to dump Constitution... making your character much less survivable, even with the Bear's armor or the Stag's defensive bonus. Whereas a pure caster Wizard can dump Strength and max Resolve.

 

 

 

Cheers for the response.

 

I was also wondering though, the main point people make is ''single class characters gets 8th and 9th level abilities, multiclass characters dont''

 

That is true, but people are missing the point that single class characters wont reach these 8th and 9th level abilities till 75% into the game. Then when you finally get your first 8th level ability point to spend when you are 75% into the game, you then have to wait until you are around 79% into the game to get your next point and so on and so forth. By the time you reach your 9th level abilities and can spend that first point in that section of abilities you will be like 90% into the game? I mean sure this is all conjecture but you can surely see what im getting at right? If the bonus for being a single class character is the 8th and 9th level abilities, lets not act like we see this bonus from the start of the game. For the majority of the game single class and multi class have the same thing in common, no access to 8th and 9th level abilities.

 

Also on a side note, what level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter can compare with going multiclass fighter/cipher and getting soul whip 20% dmg from the start, and then a level or so later getting biting whip for another 20% dmg, plus all the nice abilities you will get to pick and choose from from the cipher ability tree? Sure i havent played the beta but i just cant see level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter being worth it when you have the option of multiclass fighter/cipher.

 

 

But single-class characters have access to higher level abilities than multiclass characters throughout the game. For example, at level 9 single class gets access to 4th tier and 5th tier, while multiclass only gets access to 3rd tier. Presumably at lower levels single-class cipher gets biting whip and the bonus weapon penetration passive earlier than multi-class cipher does. (Cipher isn't necessarily a great example though, because a cipher that actually uses powers is terrible right now and the class needs major changes.) 

 

In general, single-class gets better CC / ways to deal with CC, buffs/debuffs, as well as more of their class resource (so a single-class paladin would get many more uses of Flames of Devotion, which is very strong). Single-class +2 power level is also significant for some classes like Monk (unarmed damage and penetration) and Wizard using projectile spells (gets extra projectiles). 

[SaruNi]

For the single-class DPS fighter example---in the beta, single-class fighter gets access to Armored Grace (-120% to recovery penalty from wearing armor), Weapon Specialization (+15% damage with proficient weapons), Quick Switch, Mob stance (-5% recovery per nearby enemy), and upgraded Into the Fray (which gives enemies -10 armor---penetrating armor is extremely important, because under-penetration can cause a 70% damage penalty and overpenetration can give a 30% damage bonus). And single-class fighter can get resistance to Strength, Dexterity, and Resolve afflictions---which downgrades the corresponding CC/debuffs and makes them immune to Stunned, Paralyzed, and Terrified. 

 

[Edit: forgot to mention Guardian Stance---fighter's disengagement attacks now cause Prone.]

Edited January 27, 2018 by SaruNi

[Gary1986]

 

 

 

Wizard/Druid seems like it would be the obvious choice over a single class Wizard. I know you will miss out on a few higher level spells, but if you are a Wizard/Druid and a few enemies come around your front guys and start attacking you, you can just flick that spiritshift button and your're now a melee char for awhile till you deal with the current danger.

 

It feels like it will just take the danger out of having/being a wizard.

 

Maybe in the very early levels. But by level 6 (where the beta starts) Wizards have great defense against weapon attacks---not so much from switching spell damage to resolve (which increases deflection), but from fast cast spells like Arcane Veil (+50 deflection for a long time), Wizard's Double (+40), Mirrored Image (+30)... and most attacks can't interrupt casting. There's also a 4th level teleport spell that stuns enemies in its path. And Deleterious Alacrity of Motion makes Wizards immune to engagement.

 

OTOH, a Wizard/Druid using spiritshift for melee damage is going to need Strength. Spell accuracy is very low against most enemies, and most spells have long casting times, so Dexterity and Perception are very important. Any spells with AoE or duration need Intelligence. So if you want to do good spell damage *and* good melee damage, you may have to dump Constitution... making your character much less survivable, even with the Bear's armor or the Stag's defensive bonus. Whereas a pure caster Wizard can dump Strength and max Resolve.

 

 

 

Cheers for the response.

 

I was also wondering though, the main point people make is ''single class characters gets 8th and 9th level abilities, multiclass characters dont''

 

That is true, but people are missing the point that single class characters wont reach these 8th and 9th level abilities till 75% into the game. Then when you finally get your first 8th level ability point to spend when you are 75% into the game, you then have to wait until you are around 79% into the game to get your next point and so on and so forth. By the time you reach your 9th level abilities and can spend that first point in that section of abilities you will be like 90% into the game? I mean sure this is all conjecture but you can surely see what im getting at right? If the bonus for being a single class character is the 8th and 9th level abilities, lets not act like we see this bonus from the start of the game. For the majority of the game single class and multi class have the same thing in common, no access to 8th and 9th level abilities.

 

Also on a side note, what level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter can compare with going multiclass fighter/cipher and getting soul whip 20% dmg from the start, and then a level or so later getting biting whip for another 20% dmg, plus all the nice abilities you will get to pick and choose from from the cipher ability tree? Sure i havent played the beta but i just cant see level 8th and 9th abilities of a single class fighter being worth it when you have the option of multiclass fighter/cipher.

 

 

But single-class characters have access to higher level abilities than multiclass characters throughout the game. For example, at level 9 single class gets access to 4th tier and 5th tier, while multiclass only gets access to 3rd tier. Presumably at lower levels single-class cipher gets biting whip and the bonus weapon penetration passive earlier than multi-class cipher does. (Cipher isn't necessarily a great example though, because a cipher that actually uses powers is terrible right now and the class needs major changes.) 

 

In general, single-class gets better CC / ways to deal with CC, buffs/debuffs, as well as more of their class resource (so a single-class paladin would get many more uses of Flames of Devotion, which is very strong). Single-class +2 power level is also significant for some classes like Monk (unarmed damage and penetration) and Wizard using projectile spells (gets extra projectiles). 

 

 

 

Level 9 in your example does have a difference of 2 tiers, no argument there. But if you picked level 8 it would be 1 tier difference, and if you even picked level 10 you are back at a 1 tier difference. Its not until you get to level 11 that the 2 tier difference becomes the norm, before level 11 the only level that has a 2 tier difference is level 9 (level 2 and level 4 have no difference in tiers). So for over half your levels (half the game?) your not really that far behind on tier difference. (Also single class cipher can get biting whip at level 3, multi-cipher can get biting whip at level 4. These differences never seem to be that much)

 

We are also forgetting the fact that by level 11 the multiclass character would of had 4 extra ability points to spend (By max level the multiclass character will have 7 extra ability points to spend in total). If we are being realistic some lower level tier abilities depending on the class or classes you choose, are better then higher level tier abilities in some cases.

 

Heres a chart i seen recently online.

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Gary1986

[Daled]

I don't have the backer beta and I always thought that the power level difference between single class and multi class characters were a flat 2 powerlevels or at least the 2 PL difference to kick in much eariler. I was quite surprised to see that the difference progression looks like this.

 

 

For the first 8 to 10 levels (especially until fourth) there's not a really big difference powerlevel wise, considering that multiclass have one more ability point every three levels and more abilities to pick from I'm not surprised that the beta players (where the party is level 7 I believe) feel that multiclass characters are much better.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Daled

[gGeorg]

 

So I know we haven't had a chance to check out tier 8 or 9 abilities but the question is does it matter? Even if they are good enough to equalize or surpass a multi class we will still have spent at least 3/4 of the game under powered.

 

As a partial fix:

• all level 0 abilities should be halved in value when multi classing (I.e. soul whip adds 10% damage) (perhaps with an option to spend a point at level up to get the other half)
• Both single and multi class receive the same number of ability points at level up.

 

Optional fix.

Multiclass need to choose 0 level abilities. As they count to the total number of ability points. e.g. Select first class, 0 level are automatic, but for the  second class you need to spend points for 0 level ability.

[Raenvan]

Really what i'm asking is how obsidian could possible justify multiclass characters getting not only an essentially free extra set of level 0 skills, but another 7 ability points to spend?

 

Going back to one of the first posts... The original intention must have been to compensate to overall slower progress of multiclasses towards high-level abilities with more weaker ones. Beta versions fail this last aspect, as low-level melee passives can be overpowered. As long as some low-level abilities remain stronger than high-level ones, nothing justifies the extra ability points of multiclasses.

 

There are two possible fixes:

1. The elegant, but hard way. Ensure that all low-level abilities are weaker than higher level ones.
2. Simply cancel the extra ability points of multiclasses.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Raenvan

[Taurus]

Haven't had the time to play the beta, but this does worry me.

 

Seens like waiting for a while to play the game will be the way to go...

[Wormerine]

At the same time, I wonder how different dev build is from backer beta. It lacks so much content that we know willl be in the game, that I would be surprised if what we played was barely representative of what Obsidian works on - early cut of a game, design to test stuff, rather than showcase what is to come. Still, you folks, who were part of the beta for PoE1 can judge better how much 1.0 can vary from the BB.

[CottonWolf]

At the same time, I wonder how different dev build is from backer beta. It lacks so much content that we know willl be in the game, that I would be surprised if what we played was barely representative of what Obsidian works on - early cut of a game, design to test stuff, rather than showcase what is to come. Still, you folks, who were part of the beta for PoE1 can judge better how much 1.0 can vary from the BB.

 

The answer is a lot.

[IndiraLightfoot]

A lot lot.