Resolve! Huh, What is it good for?

[BrettNLowe]

I know Josh would never go for this, but it's time to pull ability damage/healing off of Might and move it to Resolve.

 

Thematically, it makes sense. Yes, Might is supposed to be strength of soul, but in general terms as well as how it is portrayed in scripted interactions in the game, it feels like Resolve covers that ground much more heavily. This also helps with the muscle-wizard concept. Sure, Concelhaut has a strong soul and spells, but does his frail body really swing a sword that well? Likewise, Swamp Lurkers are have high Might to indicate their physical size, but are those masses of muck really supposed to have strong souls?

 

Mechanically, it is helpful too. Might simultaneously does too much at once while doing little that is noticeable.

 

Doing too much - if I want a priest that is a strong healer, a strong blaster, or strong autoattacker that focuses on buffs, they all will have very similar stat builds. Yes, they will have slight differences, but they all want might. Likewise, a wizard-warrior and a blaster wizard are built very similarly.

 

Doing too little - because Might is percentage-based and affects abilities, it had to be kept weak. While a percent increase will average out over a long fight, nukes throw things off in practice -especially AOEs. A fireball that hits 3 targets for 50 suddenly does 75 to each when getting a 50% buff, while a sword that hits for 15 only jumps to 22.5. In percent terms, it is the same, but in absolute terms it is much more damage that may end a fight because the monsters only have an absolute amount of health. As such, we were left with Might adding a piddly 3% per point. Soul Whip+biting whip was equivalent to a whopping 13.3 points of Might.

 

The solution? Make Might autoattack damage only, while Resolve takes over for ability damage and healing. Now a wizard that whacks wants Might, but a Wizard that blasts wants Resolve. A Chanter that wants to do support chants and whack takes Might, but a Dragon Thrashes Chanter wants Resolve. For abilities that use full attack or primary attack, they would rely on both. For example, Flames of Devotion would do a full attack which is multiplied by Might, while the 50% fire damage would be calculated based on that attack and then multiplied by Resolve.

 

Now the multipliers can be set differently - first guess would be something like Might 5%, Resolve 3%. You could also give Might a little something extra (say, an armor penalty reduction).

 

Like I said, I don't see them ever doing this - they are pretty married to Might as the only damage increase. But it is what I'd do!

[mostundesired]

What about deflection, then? Does it stay with Resolve? Because if so, then suddenly Resolve became insanely powerful: maximum healing, ability damage, and defensive properties.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I know Josh would never go for this, but it's time to pull ability damage/healing off of Might and move it to Resolve.

 

Thematically, it makes sense. Yes, Might is supposed to be strength of soul, but in general terms as well as how it is portrayed in scripted interactions in the game, it feels like Resolve covers that ground much more heavily. This also helps with the muscle-wizard concept. Sure, Concelhaut has a strong soul and spells, but does his frail body really swing a sword that well? Likewise, Swamp Lurkers are have high Might to indicate their physical size, but are those masses of muck really supposed to have strong souls?

 

Mechanically, it is helpful too. Might simultaneously does too much at once while doing little that is noticeable.

 

Doing too much - if I want a priest that is a strong healer, a strong blaster, or strong autoattacker that focuses on buffs, they all will have very similar stat builds. Yes, they will have slight differences, but they all want might. Likewise, a wizard-warrior and a blaster wizard are built very similarly.

 

Doing too little - because Might is percentage-based and affects abilities, it had to be kept weak. While a percent increase will average out over a long fight, nukes throw things off in practice -especially AOEs. A fireball that hits 3 targets for 50 suddenly does 75 to each when getting a 50% buff, while a sword that hits for 15 only jumps to 22.5. In percent terms, it is the same, but in absolute terms it is much more damage that may end a fight because the monsters only have an absolute amount of health. As such, we were left with Might adding a piddly 3% per point. Soul Whip+biting whip was equivalent to a whopping 13.3 points of Might.

 

The solution? Make Might autoattack damage only, while Resolve takes over for ability damage and healing. Now a wizard that whacks wants Might, but a Wizard that blasts wants Resolve. A Chanter that wants to do support chants and whack takes Might, but a Dragon Thrashes Chanter wants Resolve. For abilities that use full attack or primary attack, they would rely on both. For example, Flames of Devotion would do a full attack which is multiplied by Might, while the 50% fire damage would be calculated based on that attack and then multiplied by Resolve.

 

Now the multipliers can be set differently - first guess would be something like Might 5%, Resolve 3%. You could also give Might a little something extra (say, an armor penalty reduction).

 

Like I said, I don't see them ever doing this - they are pretty married to Might as the only damage increase. But it is what I'd do!

I am... I'm speechless.

For real, I do actually think this is bloody brilliant!! It would make rolling up characters so much more interesting right now.

Kudos to you, Brett!

Edited November 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[IndiraLightfoot]

What about deflection, then? Does it stay with Resolve? Because if so, then suddenly Resolve became insanely powerful: maximum healing, ability damage, and defensive properties.

Fair point.

Since this is Deflection in PoE:

Every attack in the game is countered by one of the four defensive stats -- either Deflection, Fortitude, Reflex, or Will. An attack will only ever target one of those four. Generally, "Deflection" is the defense that is primarily checked when you are attacked by melee or ranged attacks (so basically "weapons", in general). When resolving an enemy attack, the enemy's Accuracy will be checked against your defense. So the higher a Deflection you have, the more defense you have against Deflection-targetting attacks (again, just about all melee and ranged weapon attacks). Having a higher Deflection will make more enemy attacks miss completely or graze. Having a lower Deflection stat will make more enemy attacks hit you or critically hit you.

 

I'd say it would be fitting to move deflection to Dexterity.

Edited November 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Aramintai]

 

I know Josh would never go for this, but it's time to pull ability damage/healing off of Might and move it to Resolve.

 

Thematically, it makes sense. Yes, Might is supposed to be strength of soul, but in general terms as well as how it is portrayed in scripted interactions in the game, it feels like Resolve covers that ground much more heavily. This also helps with the muscle-wizard concept. Sure, Concelhaut has a strong soul and spells, but does his frail body really swing a sword that well? Likewise, Swamp Lurkers are have high Might to indicate their physical size, but are those masses of muck really supposed to have strong souls?

 

Mechanically, it is helpful too. Might simultaneously does too much at once while doing little that is noticeable.

 

Doing too much - if I want a priest that is a strong healer, a strong blaster, or strong autoattacker that focuses on buffs, they all will have very similar stat builds. Yes, they will have slight differences, but they all want might. Likewise, a wizard-warrior and a blaster wizard are built very similarly.

 

Doing too little - because Might is percentage-based and affects abilities, it had to be kept weak. While a percent increase will average out over a long fight, nukes throw things off in practice -especially AOEs. A fireball that hits 3 targets for 50 suddenly does 75 to each when getting a 50% buff, while a sword that hits for 15 only jumps to 22.5. In percent terms, it is the same, but in absolute terms it is much more damage that may end a fight because the monsters only have an absolute amount of health. As such, we were left with Might adding a piddly 3% per point. Soul Whip+biting whip was equivalent to a whopping 13.3 points of Might.

 

The solution? Make Might autoattack damage only, while Resolve takes over for ability damage and healing. Now a wizard that whacks wants Might, but a Wizard that blasts wants Resolve. A Chanter that wants to do support chants and whack takes Might, but a Dragon Thrashes Chanter wants Resolve. For abilities that use full attack or primary attack, they would rely on both. For example, Flames of Devotion would do a full attack which is multiplied by Might, while the 50% fire damage would be calculated based on that attack and then multiplied by Resolve.

 

Now the multipliers can be set differently - first guess would be something like Might 5%, Resolve 3%. You could also give Might a little something extra (say, an armor penalty reduction).

 

Like I said, I don't see them ever doing this - they are pretty married to Might as the only damage increase. But it is what I'd do!

I am... I'm speechless.

For real, I do actually think this is bloody brilliant!! It would make rolling up characters so much more interesting right now.

Kudos to you, Brett!

 

I think he's onto something here but I think that post should have a follow up - merge Might with Resolve and make it a single attribute. Since they kinda feel the same anyway when it comes to descriptions. No dump attributes that way too. POE doesn't have to copy AD&D and have 6 attributes.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Aramintai

[theBalthazar]

Not bad, not bad.

 

But there is a conceptual problem. Explain to a player that when he use heart of fury, he lose brutally his strength ? It is weird.

 

BUT the idea is sympathic.

 

To go to the ends of things : you have to find the specificity (like DnD)...

Might > pure strengh auto attack and abilities.

Resolve > Full magic auto attack and abilities.

 

This new system (Pillars) was created for that reason ! Each attribute must serve anyone. Here, what is the utility of might for a pure wizard in your system ? 0. Wizard doesn't use auto-attack.

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[mostundesired]

I feel like moving deflection to dex would be equally overpowered. Faster recovery means higher potential DPS, and it's already got reflexes, I'm not sure if it's wise to put deflection on top of that, too. You could take reflexes off of dex and leave it on perception, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.

 

As much as I like the idea of making Resolve do something else, we have to be very careful what we pair deflection with, considering deflection is the main method defense. I could argue slapping deflection onto con, but something in the back of my head is telling me that's a bad idea too.

[Aramintai]

I feel like moving deflection to dex would be equally overpowered. Faster recovery means higher potential DPS, and it's already got reflexes, I'm not sure if it's wise to put deflection on top of that, too. You could take reflexes off of dex and leave it on perception, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.

 

As much as I like the idea of making Resolve do something else, we have to be very careful what we pair deflection with, considering deflection is the main method defense. I could argue slapping deflection onto con, but something in the back of my head is telling me that's a bad idea too.

Personally, I'd rather deflection wasn't attached to any attribute because they all sound unfitting, but instead was attributed solely to armor and shields.

[mostundesired]

I'm okay with that. You'd have roll back the numbers on accuracy and deflection across the board, but that doesn't sound like a bad thing exactly.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I feel like moving deflection to dex would be equally overpowered. Faster recovery means higher potential DPS, and it's already got reflexes, I'm not sure if it's wise to put deflection on top of that, too. You could take reflexes off of dex and leave it on perception, but I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.

 

As much as I like the idea of making Resolve do something else, we have to be very careful what we pair deflection with, considering deflection is the main method defense. I could argue slapping deflection onto con, but something in the back of my head is telling me that's a bad idea too.

Personally, I'd rather deflection wasn't attached to any attribute because they all sound unfitting, but instead was attributed solely to armor and shields.

 

Combining your idea with Brett's, and we have something pretty solid here. Wouldn't this be a golden opportunity to make the Fighters feel a bit unique as well, given all their Armor and Shield talents? Fighters could become masters of deflection, if they opt to do so, which would fit the lore and all.

Edited November 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[BrettNLowe]

Admittedly I don't have access to the beta, but in the original Pillars, Aloth autoattacked quite often. Even with per encounter abilities, I am sure on longer fights that everyone will autoattack at least somewhat. And if you throw on armor penalty reduction, then Might is useful for everyone unless they are naked.

 

And the deflection on Resolve is so miniscule, I didn't even really consider it. Isn't it only 1 point per stat? Basically, going from 10-20 is the equivalent of +2 AC in D&D. You'll note that defensive spells/abilities add the equivalent (or in some cases, actually) of 20 or more Resolve points in Pillars 1. No other star gets that kind of buff! So I'm fine with tossing it. Resolve still has defensive properties, as Fighter Recovery, or Barb Savage Defiance would get extra healing. At the very least, it's no longer yet another defensive dump stat. In Pillars 1, ranged characters could pretty safely dump both Con and Resolve.

[Climhazzard]

Resolve is certainly easy to dump.  But so is any stat your current build doesn't need, like perception on a buffer.  High deflection is still important for tanks.

 

Case in point.  I've run the beta on PotD twice so far with 2 different tank builds.  One was a shield bearer beckoner and the other was an unbroken beckoner.  They both had 15 resolve but the shield bearer had considerably more deflection than the unbroken.  There's really only one mob in the beta you need a real tank for on PotD, that's the Terror or whatever it's called right outside the starting town (I'm at work atm so forgive me if I don't remember the name correctly).  While they both had enough armor via buffs to surpass his penetration, and they both used large shields with "the wall" active, the Fighter was getting absolutely shredded by crit's that surpassed his armor while the Paladin was fine because he wasn't getting hit by crits, or at least not nearly so often.

 

So at the least tank builds are still going to want high resolve.  Front liners in general are going to at least want average resolve.  Everyone else can dump it I guess but I'm pretty sure low defense attracts the attention of certain enemies so don't dump it unless you have an alternative form of defense such as arcane veil. 

 

Anyways, I think the stats are basically fine as is. 

[Dr <3]

I like more the plan in wich resolve affect the negative affiction duration. You can make something like: every point adds +/- 3% to the duration.

 

Dump resolve to 3 --> +21% duration of negative affliction

 

20 resolve --> -30% duration

 

Thematically fits and gives you a fair malus to dump resolution

[dunehunter]

Resolve is certainly easy to dump.  But so is any stat your current build doesn't need, like perception on a buffer.  High deflection is still important for tanks.

 

Case in point.  I've run the beta on PotD twice so far with 2 different tank builds.  One was a shield bearer beckoner and the other was an unbroken beckoner.  They both had 15 resolve but the shield bearer had considerably more deflection than the unbroken.  There's really only one mob in the beta you need a real tank for on PotD, that's the Terror or whatever it's called right outside the starting town (I'm at work atm so forgive me if I don't remember the name correctly).  While they both had enough armor via buffs to surpass his penetration, and they both used large shields with "the wall" active, the Fighter was getting absolutely shredded by crit's that surpassed his armor while the Paladin was fine because he wasn't getting hit by crits, or at least not nearly so often.

 

So at the least tank builds are still going to want high resolve.  Front liners in general are going to at least want average resolve.  Everyone else can dump it I guess but I'm pretty sure low defense attracts the attention of certain enemies so don't dump it unless you have an alternative form of defense such as arcane veil. 

 

Anyways, I think the stats are basically fine as is. 

 

Because that Terror has Swift Flurry.... and we all know that ability is broken when enemy's defense is low.

Edited November 27, 2017 by dunehunter

[KDubya]

I like the suggestion of adding affliction duration to Resolve in addition to keeping the deflection.

 

Leave it at base and get no malus to anything

 

Drop to 5 and suffer a minor -5 deflection and a harsher +15% or +25% duration on afflictions suffered

 

Buff to 15 and gain a minor +5 deflection and a quite useful -15% or -25% duration on afflictions suffered

 

You can still dump it but there is a real cost involved now and pumping it adds a good benefit to further a tanky type build.

[Boeroer]

Yes, I like it too. It makes the game a bit more tactical without adding micromanagement. You can still use inspirations/resistances/immunities to shrug off afflictions, but you have to watch out more if your char has very low resolve.

 

And as a CC guy you could max out INT and cast spells first that lower enemies' RES in order to maximize the CC duration. I like it even more now...

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[Nail]

Some very good points, but what would it take for @J.E. Sawyer to read this and think about it?...

[KDubya]

Some very good points, but what would it take for @J.E. Sawyer to read this and think about it?...

 

Probably posting it on the SomethingAwfulforums  

[Boeroer]

Hm, I have the impression that somebody here from OBS reads most stuff thoroughly and reports the most pressing and interesting things to Josh. Else he wouldn't have said anything about the universal talents and the other discussions we had here.

[Lamppost in Winter]

He's also been active on the subreddit (well, two posts). The feedback thread has slowed down and he only responded to one question, but perhaps after the patch there'll be another one I could post in.

[DigitalCrack]

Kind of skimmed through this and do like the way people are thinking on these suggestions. Another idea, what about having resolve decrease recovery time for actions or would that be too much? Dex is just action speed which doesn't affect recovery correct? It fits in my mind with resolve. Not sure this is a better suggestion then ability damage or affliction duration.

[Boeroer]

Dex also shortens recovery.

[DigitalCrack]

Dex also shortens recovery.

Ah thanks was never clear to me if it did.

[Nail]

Hm, I have the impression that somebody here from OBS reads most stuff thoroughly and reports the most pressing and interesting things to Josh. Else he wouldn't have said anything about the universal talents and the other discussions we had here.

Let's hope it's true...

[MortyTheGobbo]

I'm not sure about the mechanics, but I feel like Resolve needs an identity. It already did in Pillars. It does a little bit of everything, but nothing concrete. Priests and paladins have it recommended, but it doesn't do anything particularly special for them. I don't know how reducing condition duration or being the "ability power" attribute would work, but at least they'd be something immediately recognizable as useful.