A case for not adding general abilities to Proficiencies

[IndiraLightfoot]

I can get behind Weapon Focus costing 1 talent point. To me, this add a bit to the strategizing when building interesting characters. 

[theBalthazar]

And if value of weapon focus is down to 4 accuracy ?

 

Weapon focus + Superior version (Barbarian now, eventually Fighter etc.)

4+4 = 8 accuracy (Was 6, +2 compared to now for barbarian) Cost of 2 abilities points.

 

Weapon focus

4 = 4 accuracy for general pool. (-2 compared to actual weapon focus of Barbarian) Cost of 1 ability point.

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Climhazzard]

Personally, I never made a martial character in PoE that didn't have weapon focus, so I can't really say that I support adding weapon focus to a general talent pool.  Especially in it's current form where it works for every proficient weapon.

[JerekKruger]

At least my chanter, my support priest or my wizard will not spend a talent point into Weapon Focus?

 

Making an assumption that everyone will spend a point in Weapon Focus is not convincing.

As Andrea says the assumption is that everyone who does a significant proportion of their damage with weapons will take it. That makes it a tax on using weapons and is why I favour removing it altogether (after all, enemies will have to be balanced around it anyway so it's not really a bonus).

[takamorisan]

It should be something like:

Class talents

Weapon style talents, Arcane and Divine Talents Pool. (Or General like it was back in PoE1)

[illathid]

If weapon style talents are made into proficiencies, I'd be for reworking them to work more like existing proficiencies. That is they shouldn't be a flat passive bonus but rather modals that you can enact for trade offs.

[JerekKruger]

If weapon style talents are made into proficiencies, I'd be for reworking them to work more like existing proficiencies. That is they shouldn't be a flat passive bonus but rather modals that you can enact for trade offs.

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. For example two-weapon style would give you +20% attack speed but at the cost of reduced accuracy perhaps.

 

That said at this point I'd prefer them to remain the same but become passives available to all classes.

[KingDiamond]

 

Why not that to reconcile everyone :

 

Weapon focus (General Pool)

Superior Weapon focus (Barbarian, Fighter etc.)

 

We have specificity (concept of classes mentionned above) and freedom of choice (general pool)

 

Technically, I suppose we could.

 

I would question, however, how much sense it would make.

 

Let's assume Weapon Focus as it currently is becomes a general talent that everyone can take. +6 Accuracy at the cost 1 talent point would already be a pretty good deal; at the cost of 1 proficiency, it is a total no-brainer. Everyone who needs to hit their enemies (e.g. every non-support character who doesn't rely on spells to cause damage) would take it; not doing so would be willfully gimping oneself, which most players won't do (only veterans in search of a challenge via self-imposed rules would, in fact.)

 

At that point, we have two scenarios:

 

• Everything stays the same (i.e. monsters are not rebalanced around the assumptions that most characters would have Weapon Focus.) This preserves the essence of the Weapon Focus talent, which is to give you an edge in combat versus the "normality" (which is not having a +6 Accuracy bonus on every attack.) However, everybody and their neighbor would take Weapon Focus because it's up for grabs at what amounts to no cost, and gives a very good advantage. Suddenly the game is too easy—and certainly easier than intended by the developer at any rate.
• Everything is rebalanced around the assumption that most characters have Weapon Focus in order to retain the challenge. This makes Weapon Focus a de facto must pick or you would be factually gimping yourself, since monsters' stats are such that you are expected to have it. Weapon Focus goes from being a talent you choose to gain an advantage to a talent you must pick to not be at a disadvantage.

 

I'd say both scenarios are equally undesirable. Josh mentioned in one of the Q&A streams that for Deadfire they tried to limit the amount of things that could increase Accuracy specifically because it is such an important stat. Everyone would jump at the opportunity to increase their Accuracy, and it becomes harder for designers to balance the game and provide a challenge without being unfair to players.

 

Now, let's assume you'd still give Barbarians an exclusive talent called Superior Weapon Focus that gives, say, +8 Accuracy instead. I see at least two problems:

 

• The game would still need to be balanced around the assumption that most characters would get a +6 Accuracy bonus, so my point about Weapon Focus becoming a must to avoid a disadvantage still stands.
• Barbarians would have a ridiculously high +14 Accuracy bonus from taking both, which would make them far superior to most other melee classes, if not all. The solution would be not to make the two stack; Barbarians would still get a +8 Accuracy for 1 talent point deal, which is a bit too good. Perhaps we could make Weapon Focus +4 and Superior Weapon Focus +6, mutually exclusive, to ameliorate the issue—but it would be too much work for too little benefit, imo, as the previous point would still be a problem.

 

I definitely advocate for Weapon Focus to stay where it is now. It's OK as a Barbarian talent.

 

Weapon Styles can become general if Fighters get something unique in their talent tree in exchange. Similarly, Bull's Will, Snake's Reflexes, and Bear's Fortitude should probably be general and replaced by something different in the classes that get them; and by all means, let's bring back the elemental talents for the general talent pool—they were flavorful and interesting, and it's a pity not to have them in Deadfire.

 

Getting a +6 accuracy bonus from weapon focus will not have a significant impact on game difficulty.  It did not in the first game. Why would it be different in Deadfire.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Why not that to reconcile everyone :

 

Weapon focus (General Pool)

Superior Weapon focus (Barbarian, Fighter etc.)

 

We have specificity (concept of classes mentionned above) and freedom of choice (general pool)

 

Technically, I suppose we could.

 

I would question, however, how much sense it would make.

 

Let's assume Weapon Focus as it currently is becomes a general talent that everyone can take. +6 Accuracy at the cost 1 talent point would already be a pretty good deal; at the cost of 1 proficiency, it is a total no-brainer. Everyone who needs to hit their enemies (e.g. every non-support character who doesn't rely on spells to cause damage) would take it; not doing so would be willfully gimping oneself, which most players won't do (only veterans in search of a challenge via self-imposed rules would, in fact.)

 

At that point, we have two scenarios:

 

• Everything stays the same (i.e. monsters are not rebalanced around the assumptions that most characters would have Weapon Focus.) This preserves the essence of the Weapon Focus talent, which is to give you an edge in combat versus the "normality" (which is not having a +6 Accuracy bonus on every attack.) However, everybody and their neighbor would take Weapon Focus because it's up for grabs at what amounts to no cost, and gives a very good advantage. Suddenly the game is too easy—and certainly easier than intended by the developer at any rate.
• Everything is rebalanced around the assumption that most characters have Weapon Focus in order to retain the challenge. This makes Weapon Focus a de facto must pick or you would be factually gimping yourself, since monsters' stats are such that you are expected to have it. Weapon Focus goes from being a talent you choose to gain an advantage to a talent you must pick to not be at a disadvantage.

 

I'd say both scenarios are equally undesirable. Josh mentioned in one of the Q&A streams that for Deadfire they tried to limit the amount of things that could increase Accuracy specifically because it is such an important stat. Everyone would jump at the opportunity to increase their Accuracy, and it becomes harder for designers to balance the game and provide a challenge without being unfair to players.

 

Now, let's assume you'd still give Barbarians an exclusive talent called Superior Weapon Focus that gives, say, +8 Accuracy instead. I see at least two problems:

 

• The game would still need to be balanced around the assumption that most characters would get a +6 Accuracy bonus, so my point about Weapon Focus becoming a must to avoid a disadvantage still stands.
• Barbarians would have a ridiculously high +14 Accuracy bonus from taking both, which would make them far superior to most other melee classes, if not all. The solution would be not to make the two stack; Barbarians would still get a +8 Accuracy for 1 talent point deal, which is a bit too good. Perhaps we could make Weapon Focus +4 and Superior Weapon Focus +6, mutually exclusive, to ameliorate the issue—but it would be too much work for too little benefit, imo, as the previous point would still be a problem.

 

I definitely advocate for Weapon Focus to stay where it is now. It's OK as a Barbarian talent.

 

Weapon Styles can become general if Fighters get something unique in their talent tree in exchange. Similarly, Bull's Will, Snake's Reflexes, and Bear's Fortitude should probably be general and replaced by something different in the classes that get them; and by all means, let's bring back the elemental talents for the general talent pool—they were flavorful and interesting, and it's a pity not to have them in Deadfire.

 

Getting a +6 accuracy bonus from weapon focus will not have a significant impact on game difficulty.  It did not in the first game. Why would it be different in Deadfire.

 

It's good at first, but it has declining impact over the course of the game.

[KingDiamond]

 

 

Getting a +6 accuracy bonus from weapon focus will not have a significant impact on game difficulty.  It did not in the first game. Why would it be different in Deadfire.

 

It's good at first, but it has declining impact over the course of the game.

 

And you won't be gimp if you don't take it. You can build a perfectly fine character without it.

[mostundesired]

 

 

 

 

Getting a +6 accuracy bonus from weapon focus will not have a significant impact on game difficulty. It did not in the first game. Why would it be different in Deadfire.

 

It's good at first, but it has declining impact over the course of the game.

And you won't be gimp if you don't take it. You can build a perfectly fine character without it.

... Assuming the game isn't balance with the expectation that everyone gets +6 accuracy. If not, it becomes easier to lay on damage and CC, potentially trivializing some encounters. If so, that +6 could make or break your character's efficiency.

 

Maybe there's some middle ground here. The people against it, however, are erring on the side of caution.

[JerekKruger]

It's good at first, but it has declining impact over the course of the game.

 

I see this stated quite often, but I don't agree. Sure, as a percentage of your base Accuracy +6 becomes smaller and smaller as the you level up, but that's not what matters when it comes to Accuracy. What matters is the difference between your Accuracy and the enemy's Deflection. A +6 bonus is equally good whether you have a base Accuracy of 20 or 60 when you're facing enemies whose Deflections are 20 or 60 respectively. Since enemy Deflection increases as you level up then, give or take, +6 remains equally beneficial throughout the game.

 

Now, in Pillars there were loads of other sources of bonus Accuracy so it was true that Weapon Focus would, at high levels, become less powerful, but one of the things Josh has mentioned that they want to limit is the number of sources of bonus Accuracy in Deadfire, and given this I suspect +6 will remain equally good throughout the game.

[Katarack21]

 

It's good at first, but it has declining impact over the course of the game.

 

I see this stated quite often, but I don't agree. Sure, as a percentage of your base Accuracy +6 becomes smaller and smaller as the you level up, but that's not what matters when it comes to Accuracy. What matters is the difference between your Accuracy and the enemy's Deflection. A +6 bonus is equally good whether you have a base Accuracy of 20 or 60 when you're facing enemies whose Deflections are 20 or 60 respectively. Since enemy Deflection increases as you level up then, give or take, +6 remains equally beneficial throughout the game.

 

Now, in Pillars there were loads of other sources of bonus Accuracy so it was true that Weapon Focus would, at high levels, become less powerful, but one of the things Josh has mentioned that they want to limit is the number of sources of bonus Accuracy in Deadfire, and given this I suspect +6 will remain equally good throughout the game.

 

Doubtful. Perception still influences accuracy, and by the time you get to high-level buffs and debuffs they make far more of a difference than a static +6 does.

[Wormerine]

Doubtful. Perception still influences accuracy, and by the time you get to high-level buffs and debuffs they make far more of a difference than a static +6 does.

So if those are so irrelevant, what is the point of needing them in order to define your character?

 

Where did idea of weapon accuracy buffs from PoE1 coming back to Deadfire came from? Has there been new details revealed? From Josh’s original post I understood that they will simply make existing passive weapons talents available to everyone. I think one handed weapon style had increased accuracy if I remember well, but all the other had different effects.

[Katarack21]

 

Doubtful. Perception still influences accuracy, and by the time you get to high-level buffs and debuffs they make far more of a difference than a static +6 does.

So if those are so irrelevant, what is the point of needing them in order to define your character?

 

Where did idea of weapon accuracy buffs from PoE1 coming back to Deadfire came from? Has there been new details revealed? From Josh’s original post I understood that they will simply make existing passive weapons talents available to everyone. I think one handed weapon style had increased accuracy if I remember well, but all the other had different effects.

 

They're irrelevant in a mechanical sense by late mid-game. I've said before I don't even really care what the bonus provided by the weapon styles or weapon focus or marksman or whatever even is; it could be +3 accuracy or +30% damage, and I'd take it either way for a character I felt it was appropriate for.

 

For me it serves two purposes: One, a slight nudge towards distinct roles, with lesser impact and overall character affect than multiclassing. Two, roleplay purposes.

[DCParry]

I can get behind Weapon Focus costing 1 talent point. To me, this add a bit to the strategizing when building interesting characters. 

 

I think you might be over-emphasizing the actual dilemma of this apparent "choice". The amount of time you are going to be doing damage with your weapon, regardless of class, makes taking a talent/ability that increases as close to a no brainer as possible. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by DCParry

[vanyel54]

"O my god, if you give weapon focus to everyone we have to re-balance all the game !"

So a full fighter/barb/ranger party is clearly unbalance actually then ? Because every power user will multi-class with one of these actually. 

And honestly, i don't think the game is balanced for every crazy party we could make. What about a 5 beckoner party we will spawn 30 wurms ?

When the spell casters are back from the nerf-oblivion, we will surely have some other debates...

 

Clearly, some class are really penalized by the lack of accuracy. Want to make a ranged cipher ? Go take the weapon proficiency of your choice. Oups, you loose some accuracy (-20 WTF) and you have no means to increase it. Too bad.

The same with the Rogue. Who will play a single class rogue actually ?

 

With this distribution of capabilities, obsidian seems to push us to the multi-classing. 

And from a role play point of view, it has been said many times but there is some strange choice : Paladin without weapon and shield, Rogue without two weapon style, Weapon focus only for barbarian etc....

[Boeroer]

Yes. But I also don't like that those things should now go to the proficiency category. In my opinion it would have been better to just "copy & paste" them as abilites into most classes and then give the fighter something additional that might build up on this passive ability. Like "Two Handed Style" can be upgraded to "Two Handed Mastery" and would give you either additional damage, a bit more speed, more ACC - whatever.

[dunehunter]

Well Fighters/barbarian lack interesting active abilities, Casters lack passive abilities. So if we move the generic talents to a generic tool, of course it will displease warrior fans because casters got their passive now but left fighters not have cool/unique things.

 

I'd rather move these to a generic pool to make build characters more fun, and give fighters cool active abilities. win-win.

Edited November 28, 2017 by dunehunter

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I can get behind Weapon Focus costing 1 talent point. To me, this add a bit to the strategizing when building interesting characters. 

 

I think you might be over-emphasizing the actual dilemma of this apparent "choice". The amount of time you are going to be doing damage with your weapon, regardless of class, makes taking a talent/ability that increases as close to a no brainer as possible. 

 

If I'd be in munchkin mode, yeah, I agree 100% - my point was just this: Now it would cost something at least.

[Wormerine]

"O my god, if you give weapon focus to everyone we have to re-balance all the game !"

So a full fighter/barb/ranger party is clearly unbalance actually then ? Because every power user will multi-class with one of these actually. 

And honestly, i don't think the game is balanced for every crazy party we could make. What about a 5 beckoner party we will spawn 30 wurms ?

When the spell casters are back from the nerf-oblivion, we will surely have some other debates...

 

Clearly, some class are really penalized by the lack of accuracy. Want to make a ranged cipher ? Go take the weapon proficiency of your choice. Oups, you loose some accuracy (-20 WTF) and you have no means to increase it. Too bad.

The same with the Rogue. Who will play a single class rogue actually ?

 

With this distribution of capabilities, obsidian seems to push us to the multi-classing. 

And from a role play point of view, it has been said many times but there is some strange choice : Paladin without weapon and shield, Rogue without two weapon style, Weapon focus only for barbarian etc....

So right now Fighter is more effective with weapons, and ranger has more reliable DPS with ranged. I don’t know what barbarian has access to but I trust you that so has he. Cool. Three classes who rely on their weapons to do damage and contribute are more effective using weapons. Wizards, Priests druids rely on spells. So know they hit with weapon oriented classes. Normally you would combine a bit of both, depending on your preference in a party. If you go all fighter, well you will need extra damage to compensate for lack of spells.

 

I probably won’t make my main a rogue, but frankly in beta rogues seem super powerful. Easily moving around battlefield, disabling, interupting and killing squishy backliners. There seem to be a notion of multiclassing being evil. You want priest or rogue who go toe to toe in direct combat? Well, multiclass with a class designed to do that.

[Boeroer]

I personally have no problems with fighters/barbs/paladins and so on having more passives and others having more active abilites. In a party it can be of advantage if you bring characters that don't need pausing, choosing an ability, targeting, repeat. To be honest for me it's already too much active abilites when I multiclass all my characters. Because those will end up with a ton of actives anyway. This causes a micromanagement nightmare for me atm. A very passive yet effective build can bring some relief.

So... focusing on good passives with some classes is not a bad thing for me.

 

But I understand that it might annoy some people if they have the impression that their favored class gets pulled over the barrel when it comes to "cool" active abilites. My first action would be to make Knockdown good again - then bring things like Clear Out and Charge back and don't put them at the end of the level scale. You can make them less powerful but accessible at lower levels and then provide an upgrade that is high-level stuff and makes it more awesome.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

They're irrelevant in a mechanical sense by late mid-game. I've said before I don't even really care what the bonus provided by the weapon styles or weapon focus or marksman or whatever even is; it could be +3 accuracy or +30% damage, and I'd take it either way for a character I felt it was appropriate for.

For me it serves two purposes: One, a slight nudge towards distinct roles, with lesser impact and overall character affect than multiclassing. Two, roleplay purposes.

I do get “role playing” argument, though I am much more interested in mechical side of combat, and would happily trade obvious and meaningless choices for a smaller set of interesting ones.

 

But how does it help to distinguish your roles? I imagine you will get weapon focus on all of characters, as it won’t cost you nothing (you don’t need more that two weapon proficiencies per character) which means you paladin trained with shields will be just as trained as mage whom you have a shield to boost his defences. Unless, of course you handicap yourself due to role playing reasons, which is cool, but still gives us a pretty bad system.

[vanyel54]

To be honest for me it's already too much active abilites when I multiclass all my characters. Because those will end up with a ton of actives anyway. This causes a micromanagement nightmare for me atm.

I have clearly the same feeling. It could bothersome to click all the abilities at the start of the fight.

Example with a devoted/hellwalker : click disciplined barrage, click switf strikes , click knockdown and go for the fight

Let's wait the return of the slow mode and we'll see.

[Boeroer]

Maybe also the AI scripting tool they announced might take care of this.