Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[theBalthazar]

4. And I think actually it's easier to sneak attack enemies now in Deadfire because Escape is a very cheap 'teleport' ability to flank enemies. You spend 1 Guile and can teleport to a Flank position easily.

 

 

3 guiles.

 

And Rogue are globally extremely poor balanced about guile cost.

 

3 guiles for withering strike (lol)

 

atm

 

Mule kick is a reference of the cost for 2 guiles. +25 % damage + 10 accuracy + Disoriented 8s + interruption for 1,5s.

Flame of devotion a reference of the cost for 1 guile. +30 % damage +20 accuracy.

 

Whithering strike ?

 

Same than mule kick with a less good effect and for 3 guiles. (VS 2 disciplines)

 

2 power source is already extremely expensive...

 

Barbaric blow I hesitate frankly. If there is no critical = almost no effect. So for me, 1 rage.

 

But 3 guile for withering strike is far too much... Or give him a +40 % damage. Expensive but extremely powerful...

 

I did not particularly like the rogue in the 1, its cost in Deadfire makes me take the same path...

Edited February 8, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

Atm Disciplined strike is not nerfed. I think it is a choice by Obsidian.

 

Fighter was the worse class of the first game. His superiority in melee against one ennemy is totally normal.

 

Same for FoD. Nerf of 20 % was risky, because of single class. In fact, I think the "decision point" of FoD nerf was for multiclass, I am pretty sure of that. But a single Paladin need his superiority with an active ability. He have nothing else. (retribution is little feature, sworn ennemy is nerf, no boost of speed, no boost of penetration, no hit to crit, no AoE damage, no crit bonus. Honnestly : FoD is his only trump card.)

 

And it is same for Fighter. Without disciplined strike, a non devoted fighter stay with what ? A suppressed +5 of accuracy ? A good mule kick yes but at the cost of 2 abilities points (and two discipline points). And an "ok" boost in speed or damage (via Style) but not crazy compared to few others classes.

 

Kinda agree with you here, if Disciplined Strike is nerfed, I have no idea what is left for fighters...

 

Single class paladins are still okay, the old PoE 1 FoD also only gives 50% lash bonus, same as now. However the Sworn Enemy nerf make it an unworthy ability now. For Cipher or Fighter, they can get 15-20% damage bonus as a passive bonus. While Paladin need to spend 1 Zeal to get same bonus to only 1 target, or spend extra ability point to nullify the cost. I think it is worthless for all paladins except Goldpact now...

[dunehunter]

 

4. And I think actually it's easier to sneak attack enemies now in Deadfire because Escape is a very cheap 'teleport' ability to flank enemies. You spend 1 Guile and can teleport to a Flank position easily.

 

 

3 guiles.

 

And Rogue are globally extremely poor balanced about guile cost.

 

3 guiles for withering strike (lol)

 

atm

 

Mule kick is a reference of the cost for 2 guiles. +25 % damage + 10 accuracy + Disoriented 8s + interruption for 1,5s.

Flame of devotion a reference of the cost for 1 guile. +30 % damage +20 accuracy.

 

Whithering strike ?

 

Same than mule kick with a less good effect and for 3 guiles. (VS 2 disciplines)

 

2 power source is already extremely expensive...

 

Barbaric blow I hesitate frankly. If there is no critical = almost no effect. So for me, 1 rage.

 

But 3 guile for withering strike is far too much... Or give him a +40 % damage. Expensive but extremely powerful...

 

I did not particularly like the rogue in the 1, its cost in Deadfire makes me take the same path...

 

 

3 Guile cost is a lot yeah, but you forget the Weaken Affliction, it is good because it can still affect mobs who has resistance to Constitution, and -5 Con means a roughly 10%-20% health lose, which is pretty decent. Remember the sicken effect of Bleak Walker is useless to mobs with resistance and I'd say meatshield like Trolls will likely have Constitution resistance.

 

But I do agree 3 Guile cost is a bit inbalanced here. 2 Guile might be better.

Edited February 8, 2018 by dunehunter

[the_dog_days]

One thing is that the monk unarmed attack is never tested in beta because the save/load bug which reset transedent suffer damage.

 

After 3 version of beta, I’m still not sure how strong they are because I am not able to test it.

 

I didn't know this. Thanks, because I've spent the last few months scratching my head everytime someone said that monks were one of the better classes. I couldn't figure out what they were talking about thanks to this bug.

[theBalthazar]

Tiers list – Beta 4 - Until level 9

 

GOD TIERS

 

Devoted (Fighter)

Berserker (Barbarian) UP ! He gain one of three Style but loses +6 of accuracy. He also gain +25 % damage with barbaric blow.

 

TOP TIERS

 

Bleak walker (Paladin) UP ! All paladins gain +2 penetration for FoD.

Shifter (Druid)

Unbroken (Fighter)

Base Fighter 

Nalpazca (Monk)

Base barbarian

Base Monk

Goldpact knights (Paladin) UP !

Shieldbearer of St Elcga (Paladin) UP !

Kind wayfarers (Paladin) UP !

Darcozzi Paladini (Paladin) UP !

Shattered pillar (Monk) Penalty too strong if not... It could be highter

 

MID TIERS

Base Druid

Base Chanter

Mage slayer (Barbarian)

Assassin (Rogue) 

Base Rogue

Troubadour (Chanter)

Sharpshooter (Ranger)

Beckoner (Chanter)

Lifegiver (Druid)

Soul blade (Cipher) UP ! Return of Might. Few interresting passives abilities.

 

LOW TIERS

Fury (Druid)

Street fighter (Rogue)

Trickster (Rogue)

Corpse eater (Barbarian)

Helwalker (Monk) Good when multiclass but very bad deal (With 5 wounds : +15% damage AND +25 % more received damage WTF far too much…)

Skald (Chanter)

All priest UP !

Base Wizard UP ! All Wizard earn a better casting time + 2 good passives abilities. Trash tiers : exit ! Youpi !

Ascendant (Cipher) UP !

Base Cipher UP ! Same reasons heres.

Beguiler (Cipher) UP !

All spe wizard UP !

Ghost heart (Ranger)

Stalker (Ranger)

 

TRASH TIERS

Black jacket (Fighter)

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

Only Bleak Walkers can get +2 PEN with Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay because their special version of FoD is keyworded with Fire and Acid. All other paladins only have Fire as keyword on FoD and thus can only get +1 PEN with Scion of Flame.

Priest is the only class with a party-wide, inspiration-stacking ACC buff of +20. That alone puts him into top tier in my opinion.

 

Why is the Devoted god tier? Just because of his +2 PEN with a proficient weapon? Still good, but not that important anymore after the latest PEN/AR balancing.

 

Did you actually play any of your low tier classes? Because stuff like Ascendant and Beguiler is top tier at least with the new patch. The first profits immensely from the faster cipher casts and the prolonged Ascension status - and the second one can spam fadt-cast AoE deception powers all the time because he often gets back more focus than he spends (see Eyestrike).

 

Also Chanter (+subclasses) is so top tier material that it hurts to see him put under mid/low tier. Just try Soft Winds in the new beta 4 and then reevaluate.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Only Bleak Walkers can get +2 PEN with Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay because their special version of FoD is keyworded with Fire and Acid. All other paladins only have Fire as keyword on FoD and thus can only get +1 PEN with Scion of Flame.

Priest is the only class with a party-wide, inspiration-stacking ACC buff of +20. That alone puts him into top tier in my opinion.

 

Why is the Devoted god tier? Just because of his +2 PEN with a proficient weapon?

 

Did you actually play any of your low tier classes? Because stuff like Ascendant and Beguiler is top tier at least with the new patch. The first profits immensely from the faster cipher casts and the second one can AoE deception powers all the time because he often gets more focus than he spends (see Eyestrike).

 

Also Chanter (+subclasses) is so top tier material that it hurts to see him put under mid/low tier. Just try Soft Winds in the new beta 4 and then reevaluate.

 

Agreed, with the new patch some classes that was not good become pretty decent, specially cipher.

 

You shall try a nature godlike Ascendant, you can reach max focus within like 2-3 hit and with some help from team buff, you can get +5 PL for quite long time. It will definitely be a Top tier class in late game when u get your high level spells.

Edited April 3, 2018 by dunehunter

[theBalthazar]

1) All tiers list are subjectives. 

 

2) To answers :

 

 All other paladins only have Fire as keyword on FoD and thus can only get +1 PEN with Scion of Flame.

 

 

That's why, they up slightly less than bleak walker.

 

Why is the Devoted god tier?

 

 

+25 % critical damage / Penetration +2. And my list is do on a judgement of Subclass in singleclass, more than multiclass. Fighter is globally extremely equilibrate in accuracy + Damage + Penetration + Critical damage + Cleave stance.

 

There is one irregular exception, a troll we can say, for black jacket because I think the concept of this subclass is totally useless.

 

Ascendant and Beguiler 

 

 

They "up !"... 

 

And don't forget low tiers is not bad tiers. Like DB fighter Z tiers. Differences are infinitesimal. I personnally prefer kill my opponent, more than create a chain of spells deception. One is good, no need to more. Ok but not top tiers. 

 

 

Also Chanter (+subclasses) is so top tier material that it hurts to see him put under mid/low tier.

 

 

Chanter is excellent. But if your purpose is to finish the battle in the fastest way, he is not the first. He is good but not crazy.

 

Soft is only 2 HP per 3s. And 2 raw damage per 3s. Nothing revolutionnary. No need of move classes for that.

 

Priest is the only class with a party-wide, inspiration-stacking ACC buff of +20. That alone puts him into top tier in my opinion.

 

 

Priest still suffers from a certain length to attack. It is better now. They "up" (I forgot the symbol, I will edit just after that). But compared to the rest, they cannot to hoist top tiers, no.

 

You shall try a nature godlike Ascendant, you can reach max focus within like 2-3 hit and with some help from team buff, you can get +5 PL for quite long time. It will definitely be a Top tier class in late game when u get your high level spells.

 

 

Problem, we don't have high level spells. So, in this situation, Ascendant will become perhaps god tiers, but we don't know, so... I stay on Level 9 (indication of level at the start of my tiers list)

 

With the full game this list will perhaps completely explode for a new Meta-game, it is extremely possible indead, but now, we cannot know.

 

Even in multiclass I doesn't feel a lack of ressource cost with others classes (except for Rogues sometimes). So atm, Ascendant is absolutely not in trash tiers, but no more (for me).

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Meh, there's way too many combos to even write down tiers.

 

Also depends on how you judge them.

 

Top dps without jumping through too many hops is probably smth like bleakwalker/soulblade dualwielding spears or smth and it's pretty sturdy too.

 

Although smth like human bleak walker/street fighter would outdamage it with backstabs and when at low health.

 

Still the most solo capable class is beckoner, optionally with paladin added for extra survivability.

 

If you use full party it's honestly whatever, you can probably turn on AI and still stomp everything on PotD.

[kbot]

Soft is healing for each target hit and I believe stacking with itself. It's almost (maybe is) broken good. I can't see it not being good and wonder if you have tried it out.

[theBalthazar]

For me I think it is a bug.

 

No indication of that in the description.

 

And I doesn't do/undo a list on bugs.

 

If not, few classes in Beta 1 was godly strong. Far better than Devoted...

[L4wlight]

Only Bleak Walkers can get +2 PEN with Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay because their special version of FoD is keyworded with Fire and Acid. All other paladins only have Fire as keyword on FoD and thus can only get +1 PEN with Scion of Flame.

And let's not forget that Bleak Walkers only gain access to Spirit of Decay through a selected number of multiclass combinations (+Druid, +Priest or +Wzard).

[CottonWolf]

I think stalker's in a pretty good place at the moment, given the full attack plus 20% damage per tick from wounding shot. Upgrade it to accurate wounding shot and you have a basically guarenteed double critical with melee weapons. Spec into the pet side and basically have a the ranger play like a rogue and the pet act as an off-tank to soak up the damage. Allows the ranger to dump con and res (which is partly made up by the stalker bonus), while the pet keeps its base stats (i.e. is pretty tanky if you choose boar or bear).

[MadDemiurg]

I honestly woulnd't even waste 2 abilities to get +2 PEN on just FoD with pala. Cipher multiclass gives +1 PEN to all weapon attacks at the cost of 1 ability, that's way better.

 

As far as pen goes, it's a threshold stat, you only need to have it match enemy armor, anything above is usually wasted. Well, you can hope that +1 pen would make you hit the +30% damage threshold as well but the chances are very slim. If you worry about high armor enemies, just carry a 2nd set of high pen weapons or weapons with pen modal. As far as my beta 3 experience goes, not being able to penetrate enemy armor is exceedingly rare.

[theBalthazar]

In a complete system you are true MadDem. +1 penetration is very complicated to justify because it is hard to say when it is really usefull overall.

 

"+1 penetration and +5 % damage." would be cool for example. And becoming more "clear" in the head of the player.

 

But here, often there is a non-choice (Often a poor choice of passive abilities for example). And at this moment, I take the +1 penetration. Always better than few trash abilities.

 

And if we cannot enjoy this little abilities : this validate my other point : New passives are scams, nothing do a real difference !^^

 

So I agree, Obsidian like to create unbalanced abilities. Im pretty  surezwe can create a tiers list of Abilities : p, it would be fun (and tragic)...

 

This is more comparative since you can multi class. Because your ability point can be used for 2 panel. Comparison become more "exiguous". And abilities "equity" -should be- MORE respected. But this is not totally the case...

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

I honestly woulnd't even waste 2 abilities to get +2 PEN on just FoD with pala. Cipher multiclass gives +1 PEN to all weapon attacks at the cost of 1 ability, that's way better.

 

As far as pen goes, it's a threshold stat, you only need to have it match enemy armor, anything above is usually wasted. Well, you can hope that +1 pen would make you hit the +30% damage threshold as well but the chances are very slim. If you worry about high armor enemies, just carry a 2nd set of high pen weapons or weapons with pen modal. As far as my beta 3 experience goes, not being able to penetrate enemy armor is exceedingly rare.

 

Hence why I really dislike the new armour system.

[Boeroer]

Even if Soft Winds is bugged right now so that it heals for every enemy it hits - the "normal" case would be that it stacks with itself and any other healing effect (it's a passive) - so you don't heal 2 base per tick but 4 with linger. A Troubadour could even stack 3 instances. Add some MIG and you are at 6 per tick (Troubadour 9).

 

At the moment it's totally OP of course because it drains endurance from every enemy it hits. But this is a tier list of the beta 4. If it's so OP it should push Chanters into top tier.

[theBalthazar]

Hence why I really dislike the new armour system.

 

 

+1

 

And we don't know if ennemies after that have a increased armor. We don't know. Surely few bosses ? But also ennemies at the end of the game so... Perhaps a highter pen will be useful, we don't know.

 

 

At the moment it's totally OP of course because it drains endurance from every enemy it hits. But this is a tier list of the beta 4. If it's so OP it should push Chanters into top tier. 

 

 

IF, I say IF it is not a bug, I will UP his position. But I strongly think this is bug. Obsidian rarely jump an effect like that. In recent times, he has rather wanted to sacrifice overtime damage with chanter. Wait and see.

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

Yeah, I don't like current armor system as well. Like at all. It also creates a huge mess in weapon balance. I would make armor translate into damage resist % using smth like logarithmic formula with effective armor being (armor - pen), with the assumption that pen will be wasted on low armor enemies that have armor < pen, but heavy armor would have values above max possible pen, meaning pen stacking would still give (diminishing) returns vs heavy armor.

Edited April 3, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

I agree. I still find it horrible.

[mrmonocle]

top tier:

Holy slayer hands down. Sneak attack, paladin auras, paladin defenses, flames of devotion + crippling strike synergy.

Shepherd - flames of devotion + wounding shot, mark + sworn enemy, paladin auras, easy flanking with animal companion (if only it could be configured via AI).

Psyblade(devoted - soulblade) - super penetration and damage + whisper of treason make a great middle row dps choice.

Single class priest is still a great choice with buffs and suppress affliction, works well even if left to AI to handle.

Wizard (evoker or nosub) - surprisingly high damage, superior cc and great AI handling.

Barbarian - a great dps choice, but can be shadowed by other dps classes if you have a priest that will provide inspirations similar to barb's.

 

middle:

monk - while being a great dps, a monk is too manual control dependent for my taste.

chanter - has to be a frontliner to benefit from most offensive invocations, but as a summoner can be placed in top tier in the release depending on the summons' options.

druid - being a hybrid by concept he just gets outclassed by wiz or priest in their respective roles. Fury is still great, being a point or two behind being worthy of the top tier.

 

low tier:

single class rogue - squishy, not being able to realize his damage potential.

cypher - rendered completely useless since countless nerfs in POE1. Still need to see the full ability tree.

ranged ranger - a very unreliable source of dps with most ranged weapons being piercing type, inferior cc.

[dunehunter]

No one tried a Berath Priest/Stalker, paladin, devoted?

 

I find the spiritual greatsword is extremely powerful and now it’s cast time is improved to only 3second.

[theBalthazar]

Devoted / Berath is excellent.

 

Paladin annoy me because I cannot add bleak walker. So this is not the best combo.

[Aramintai]

Gotta say I'm sad rogue is so subpar single classed compared to other classes. Devs wrote previously they'll look into to it, but nothing much came out of it by the looks of it. Still too squishy, still too much hassle for a chance at good hit while other classes do it without a sweat. If this gonna stay the way it is I don't see a real point in playing that single class. I doubt high level abilities will suddenly make a superman out of it and in any case it's not enjoyable playing in low levels. Maybe it needs the cost of abilities to be lower, maybe more potent penetration abilities, dunno, something to give it more edge.

 

I like what they did for the wizards though, even single classed without a subclass it does good damage and plays smooth.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Aramintai

[MadDemiurg]

No one tried a Berath Priest/Stalker, paladin, devoted?

 

I find the spiritual greatsword is extremely powerful and now it’s cast time is improved to only 3second.

 

Devoted (or any fighter really, main fighter strength comes from disciplined barrage, confident aim and stances available to all fighters, devoted is just bit better than the rest) is pretty good for multiclassing with high damage % bonus classes as it makes hitting and critting with this damage easier. 

 

2h is pretty bad outside of ability use tho and even there dw is superior for the full attack abilities. With 2h your recovery in heavy armor is really bad, so I usually limit it to pikes and lighter armor. You can get some pretty impressive numbers but in reality the dps isn't great as your attacks are almost twice as slow compared to dw. The only exception is hunting bow with its -50% recovery modal which is awesome.

 

TL;DR bleak walker/devoted with hunting bow or dualwielding spears or sabers would do better. 2h is in dire need of -recovery buffs to be viable.

Edited April 3, 2018 by MadDemiurg