Injury System is way too brutal

[Katarack21]

I started the beta and have been playing the beta on Normal/Classic and haven't had difficulty completing encounters. I got through the spore encounter, I got through the Laguefeth chief encounter, I got through the large laguefeth in the southwest corner encounter, I got past the Titan encounter, etc. I got through all of these in one or two attempts, possibly after adjusting my tactics in the first attempt. I know my skills not just at PoE but at RPG's and I understand that this is a beta with possibly unbalanced encounters, abilities, etc.

I got slaughtered by traps inside the temple, reloaded, and worked my way through carefully. I understand that the premade rogue doesn't have perfectly allocated states or skills and isn't the greatest trap detector on the planet, so it doesn't reflect how it will be in-game especially if you're playing a rogue or otherwise have a MC capable of trap detection yourself.

I'm not complaining about the difficulty *of the game*. I'm not saying the encounters are to hard or the game is to difficult or that I'm having trouble getting past areas without suffering knockouts.

I'm complaining about the *effects that getting knockouts has on the gameplay*. I'm stating that *the effect of knockouts*, by way of injuries that remove 25% of your health each, is far to severe and limiting on gameplay tactics and styles. I'm saying that the hard drop by 25% of health per injury negatively effects the players ability to try alternate tactics, to push playing time vs rest, to play around with dangerous or risky maneuvers.

Due to the injury system, and injuries being inflicted by traps, it also artificially inflates the value of perception--which dictates how you can find traps. More perception, more trap detection, the longer you can go without having to rest and the less time you, the player yourself, have to spend visually and actively scanning for traps.

This has *nothing* to do with difficulty settings or self-perception of capability or anything like that. I'm talking about the effect of a gameplay mechanic on gameplay. The skill of the player does *not* factor into this in any way.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Katarack21

[Osvir]

Okay, is there any way for YOU, not your characters, to detect and see traps? If you observe the surroundings, do you see any sort of mechanism for a potential spike trap, or a snare trap? Do you have to have a dedicated trap finder to physically see traps?

In Pillars 1 you had to, but is it the same in Deadfire? (I've only encountered one trap, and I could see it before the Mercenary Rogue detected and highlighted it)

Are the traps like that, or are they "invisible" like Pillars 1? Or can I see them if I look closely enough?

I understand that it doesn't matter much if I can see them and I have no one capable of disarming them, but is there a way to dodge them or are they "instant" damage/injury? Basically: Is there any way to avoid being dealt damage/injury after triggering a trap?

[Katarack21]

I've encountered three kinds of traps--spike traps, trap lines, and magical traps. The spike traps you, the player, can visually see. The trap lines *I* didn't visually see until they were highlighted, but I don't know if they are visible before that. The magical traps *are totally invisible*.

As far as I can tell, they are instant injury but depending on the type of trap can be slow damage.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Katarack21

[Boeroer]

If you know what you are looking for you can see every physical trap.

 

By the way my MC with 16 PER and 0 mechanics finds more traps than the mercenary rogue with 14 PER and 7 mechanics.

 

Traps are very nasty now - also for the enemy!

Edited November 18, 2017 by Boeroer

[Katarack21]

But not as bad for enemies as for us, because enemies don't have to worry about injuries continuing after combat is over.

[Boeroer]

It's very nice to reduce enemies' health by 50% if they walked into two traps. There are few active abilities that can take away 25% of health. I also noticed that sometimes two enemies get hit by the same trap. "Double trap" basically.

 

And it's obviously worse for the enemy - because they can't detect and disarm traps (at least I didn't meet any that could) while I can simply disarm and use them afterwards.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Boeroer

[Katarack21]

It's very nice to reduce enemies' health by 50% if they walked into two traps. There are few active abilities that can take away 25% of health. I also noticed that sometimes two enemies get hit by the same trap. "Double trap" basically.

 

And it's obviously worse for the enemy - because they can't detect and disarm traps (at least I didn't meet any that could) while I can simply disarm and use them afterwards.

Enemies being more likely to be affected by the trap is not the issue; there's a whole effect, that of lessened effectiveness in future combats, that enemies don't have to deal with by virtue of not being players.

[Christliar]

Injuries have to matter and have to be punishing, if you can't continue on with 2 injuries then that means it's working, you also forget the fact that you do have a choice to continue after 2 injuries, you just don't want to. What if getting knocked out once meant the character is dead, like it was in the IE games? The injury system is a compromise, not a substitute for resource management like you think it is. There is no resource management in P2, don't delude yourself. You are not supposed to shake off injuries and continue on like nothing has happened. The only thing this system accounts for is how well you play, nothing else. Is it a step back? Kind of, resting wasn't prohibitive enough in P1 to matter much, so eh. I'm pretty sure Josh is at the point of designing the game with the assumption that everyone will rest after every fight, so whatever.

[Gairnulf]

You could never have more endurance than health. If current health is lower than your max. endurance then endurance is capped to the value of actual health.

I checked, and you are correct. The confusion was on my part.

 

Now you can just pile up healing effects and you won't go down - while you skill everthing towards offense. At least the health system of PoE1 prevented such exploitation to an extent.

 

You could pile up healing effects and not go down in PoE too, as in in the IE games for that matter. Isn't that the point of nealing effects? How come it's an "exploit"?

 

The solution is limiting resting to a minimum. Both the IE games style Vancian system and PoE's Health/Endurance would work in that context. The problem is the players, not the system. People will scream and bitch, and moan, and cry that the game is too hard, seemingly oblivious to the fact there are 5 difficulties.

I share your opinion, and I like your profile pic. Edited November 18, 2017 by Gairnulf

[Katarack21]

Injuries have to matter and have to be punishing, if you can't continue on with 2 injuries then that means it's working, you also forget the fact that you do have a choice to continue after 2 injuries, you just don't want to. What if getting knocked out once meant the character is dead, like it was in the IE games? The injury system is a compromise, not a substitute for resource management like you think it is. There is no resource management in P2, don't delude yourself. You are not supposed to shake off injuries and continue on like nothing has happened. The only thing this system accounts for is how well you play, nothing else. Is it a step back? Kind of, resting wasn't prohibitive enough in P1 to matter much, so eh. I'm pretty sure Josh is at the point of designing the game with the assumption that everyone will rest after every fight, so whatever.

My problem isn't that "injuries matter", it's that they matter *to much*. I don't want to "shake off injuries and continue on like nothing happened", I want to make meaningful choices about how far I can go, and I can't--being 50% down on health is *to hard a push*. It doesn't create meaningful choice, it pushes hard towards "rest right now".

[Christliar]

Again, it's not a choice, let alone a meaningful one. You can rest everywhere and however many times you wish, we can't even begin talking about choices in that context. Would you cry and moan, and bitch if the characters died instead of being injured? Like it was in the IE games? Would you say there is no "meaningful choice" when they die and you have to reload or go to a temple? You confuse concepts and are trying to demagogue your way into the game catering to your bad playing. Can't muster the skill or willingness to continue on after 2 injures? Suck it up, rest and git gud, that's the point of punishing systems, to make you put in the effort to become better at the game.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Christliar

[Katarack21]

Again, it's not a choice, let alone a meaningful one. You can rest everywhere and however many times you wish, we can't even begin talking about choices in that context. Would you cry and moan, and bitch if the characters died instead of being injured? Like it was in the IE games? Would you say there is no "meaningful choice" when they die and you have to reload or go to a temple? You confuse concepts and are trying to demagogue your way into the game catering to your bad playing. Can't muster the skill or willingness to continue on after 2 injures? Suck it up and git gud, that's the point of punishing systems, to make you put in the effort to become better at the game.

IE games were different games with different per-rest resource management systems. The per-rest resource management system in PoE 2 is injuries--injuries force you to rest at certain points and eat, and the amount of damage generated per injury factors into how often you then rest.

 

I don't understand why your copping such a goddamn attitude, calling me a "demagogue" and accusing me "whining and bitching". This is a *beta discussion forum* where your *supposed* to put forward your feedback about what you feel works and why. If you don't want criticism about the beta, go somewhere else.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Katarack21

[Tartantyco]

I don't understand why your copping such a goddamn attitude, calling me a "demagogue" and accusing me "whining and bitching". This is a *beta discussion forum* where your *supposed* to put forward your feedback about what you feel works and why. If you don't want criticism about the beta, go somewhere else.

 

 

I think the problem is that your argument seems to be based on you not being very good at the game, or even average. I've played through the Beta on Classic and Veteran without having any severe issues with injuries. I rested when I had to, and I got through it with only the food I had at the beginning and picked up along the way. If I had purchased food, it would have been a complete non-issue.

 

I'm not min-maxing. I'm not playing very tactically. I'm playing it very straight-forward. Still it looks like I'll have to go to POTD for any real challenge. So when people are complaining about the injury system, I can't help but completely discard their opinions and arguments because I see no reason why they should be having any of these issues beyond their own lack of ability.

[Christliar]

Like I said, there is no resource management, where are you even getting this from? Resting is allowed anywhere and at any time. What resource management? See, this is where you start confusing concepts and systems, using them interchangeably while that can't be further from the truth. The point of the injuries is not to give you the kind of choice you seem to want. It's a compromise and a hand-holding tactic, if I had my way characters would die after reaching 0 health, like it should be. What do you want? 20% per injury? Then you'll complain that you have to rest after 3 knock-outs, if we assume you'd be willing to continue with 60% health. You'll still be knocked out constantly anyway. 10%? Why have injuries at all? They just force you to rest.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Christliar

[Katarack21]

 

I don't understand why your copping such a goddamn attitude, calling me a "demagogue" and accusing me "whining and bitching". This is a *beta discussion forum* where your *supposed* to put forward your feedback about what you feel works and why. If you don't want criticism about the beta, go somewhere else.

 

 

I think the problem is that your argument seems to be based on you not being very good at the game, or even average. I've played through the Beta on Classic and Veteran without having any severe issues with injuries. I rested when I had to, and I got through it with only the food I had at the beginning and picked up along the way. If I had purchased food, it would have been a complete non-issue.

 

I'm not min-maxing. I'm not playing very tactically. I'm playing it very straight-forward. Still it looks like I'll have to go to POTD for any real challenge. So when people are complaining about the injury system, I can't help but completely discard their opinions and arguments because I see no reason why they should be having any of these issues beyond their own lack of ability.

 

I also rested when I had to, got through it with only the food at the beginning, successfully beat all the combat encounters, got past the traps in the temple, etc. I had to rest a few encounters when my tactics went bad, etc.

 

Look, I didn't **** up my whole way through the game and I didn't claw my eyes out with frustration at how ****ty the whole thing was, either. You seem to have this idea that I'm bitching and whining because it's hard. I'm not. I'm not complaining because the games difficult. I'm complaining about the *effects of a gameplay mechanic*.

 

I'm not complaining because I got knocked out to much, I'm complaining because the effects of injuries from the times I *did* get knocked out where too severe and I've outlined why I think so. Your conflating "complaining about getting knocked out" with "complaning about the effects of getting knocked out".

 

 

Like I said, there is no resource management, where are you even getting this from? Resting is allowed anywhere and at any time. What resource management? See, this is where you start confusing concepts and systems, using them interchangeably while that can't be further from the truth. The point of the injuries is not to give you the kind of choice you seem to want. It's a compromise and a hand-holding tactic, if I had my way characters would die after reaching 0 health, like it should be. What do you want? 20% per injury? Then you'll complain that you have to rest after 3 knock-outs, if we assume you'd be willing to continue with 60% health. You'll still be knocked out constantly anyway. 10%? Why have injuries at all? They just force you to rest.

Yeah, resting is allowed anywhere at any time. That doesn't mean there's no resource management. You replenish your health and your empower by resting--it's in fact the only way to do so. Endurance regenerates after battle, but health doesn't. Health is lot from injuries and replenished *only* by resting. The *resources* of health and empowerment can only be replenished by resting and eating food to heal injuries.

 

"It's a compromise and a hand-holding tactic, if I had my way characters would die after reaching 0 health, like it should be." And this, I think, is the real factor--you just think anybody who doesn't like the IE style is a crappy, weak player who sucks. After all, where does this come from?

 

"Then you'll complain that you have to rest after 3 knock-outs, if we assume you'd be willing to continue with 60% health. You'll still be knocked out constantly anyway. 10%? Why have injuries at all? They just force you to rest."

 

I've stated repeatedly that I think injuries are to severe because at the strength they are they take away the meaningful choice of whether I must rest or whether I can press on, but here you insinuate I'd just get rid of injuries--and rest entirely!

 

You aren't interested in debating the pros and cons of injuries and figuring out how the system might work best. You just want a system as close to the IE style as you can find, and like to mock anybody who disagrees with you.

[Tartantyco]

I also rested when I had to, got through it with only the food at the beginning, successfully beat all the combat encounters, got past the traps in the temple, etc. I had to rest a few encounters when my tactics went bad, etc.

Look, I didn't **** up my whole way through the game and I didn't claw my eyes out with frustration at how ****ty the whole thing was, either. You seem to have this idea that I'm bitching and whining because it's hard. I'm not. I'm not complaining because the games difficult. I'm complaining about the *effects of a gameplay mechanic*.

 

I'm not complaining because I got knocked out to much, I'm complaining because the effects of injuries from the times I *did* get knocked out where too severe and I've outlined why I think so. Your conflating "complaining about getting knocked out" with "complaning about the effects of getting knocked out".

 

 

So, the injury system is not too brutal. Copy that.

[hilfazer]

 

I'm not min-maxing. I'm not playing very tactically. I'm playing it very straight-forward. Still it looks like I'll have to go to POTD for any real challenge. So when people are complaining about the injury system, I can't help but completely discard their opinions and arguments because I see no reason why they should be having any of these issues beyond their own lack of ability.

 

 

Then you are very good. Not everyone is.

[Mikeymoonshine]

Is resting outside of towns supposed to heal injuries? The only way i've been able to heal them is by going back to the town and resting there. Food doesn't heal them either, unless i'm not using the right foods on my injured characters. 

[Katarack21]

 

I also rested when I had to, got through it with only the food at the beginning, successfully beat all the combat encounters, got past the traps in the temple, etc. I had to rest a few encounters when my tactics went bad, etc.

Look, I didn't **** up my whole way through the game and I didn't claw my eyes out with frustration at how ****ty the whole thing was, either. You seem to have this idea that I'm bitching and whining because it's hard. I'm not. I'm not complaining because the games difficult. I'm complaining about the *effects of a gameplay mechanic*.

 

I'm not complaining because I got knocked out to much, I'm complaining because the effects of injuries from the times I *did* get knocked out where too severe and I've outlined why I think so. Your conflating "complaining about getting knocked out" with "complaning about the effects of getting knocked out".

 

 

So, the injury system is not too brutal. Copy that.

 

Yes, it is. It very much is, for the reasons I've outlines above...repeatedly.

[Christliar]

 

 

I'm not min-maxing. I'm not playing very tactically. I'm playing it very straight-forward. Still it looks like I'll have to go to POTD for any real challenge. So when people are complaining about the injury system, I can't help but completely discard their opinions and arguments because I see no reason why they should be having any of these issues beyond their own lack of ability.

 

 

Then you are very good. Not everyone is.

 

And because not everyone is as good, every difficulty has to cater to the bad players? They can make injuries be less punishing in easy mode, where it belongs.

 

 

Yes, it is. It very much is, for the reasons I've outlines above...repeatedly.

 

 

And I've said why you are fundamentally wrong repeatedly, but that doesn't seem to phase you.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Christliar

[Tartantyco]

Is resting outside of towns supposed to heal injuries? The only way i've been able to heal them is by going back to the town and resting there. Food doesn't heal them either, unless i'm not using the right foods on my injured characters. 

 

In the resting screen, you need to put food in the slot near the character portait of any party member that is injured.

[Mikeymoonshine]

 

Is resting outside of towns supposed to heal injuries? The only way i've been able to heal them is by going back to the town and resting there. Food doesn't heal them either, unless i'm not using the right foods on my injured characters. 

 

In the resting screen, you need to put food in the slot near the character portait of any party member that is injured.

 

 

Yep tried that several times it doesn't heal them, so I guess it's a bug? 

[tinysalamander]

Actually, it’s completely the other way around. The better at game you are, the less your opinion on how easy injury effects are matters. I mean, if you aren’t knocked out you don’t get penalties so it doesn’t really matter to you how severe penalties are. They might as well not exist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In general, the problem with injury systems is the fact that they penalize those who are already bad (for some values of the word) while having limited or no effect on masters of the game.

[Tartantyco]

Actually, it’s completely the other way around. The better at game you are, the less your opinion on how easy injury effects are matters. I mean, if you aren’t knocked out you don’t get penalties so it doesn’t really matter to you how severe penalties are. They might as well not exist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

In general, the problem with injury systems is the fact that they penalize those who are already bad (for some values of the word) while having limited or no effect on masters of the game.

 

I honestly believe you people are actually making this argument. Seriously, play on Story Mode or stop playing all together.

[Katarack21]

 

Actually, it’s completely the other way around. The better at game you are, the less your opinion on how easy injury effects are matters. I mean, if you aren’t knocked out you don’t get penalties so it doesn’t really matter to you how severe penalties are. They might as well not exist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

In general, the problem with injury systems is the fact that they penalize those who are already bad (for some values of the word) while having limited or no effect on masters of the game.

 

I honestly believe you people are actually making this argument. Seriously, play on Story Mode or stop playing all together.

 

I honestly believe you are completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. Playing on Story Mode will not make the deleterious effects of injuries go away. It will not solve the problem of injuries effects being to severe; it will merely make the game easier, and as I am not complaining about the games difficulty *that won't matter*.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Katarack21