Politics - Jason X

[Ben No.3]

I find it very interesting, that "the nation", and accordingly "the flag", get treated as if they were genuinely existing things. I am not sure about America, but at least one Europe (and I guess the difference isn't that great), the idea of a "Nation", and the ideology of nationalism are very new concepts. In fact, nationalists were often the victims of political persecution in their monarchical homelands. One might especially point out those from German countries or the Polish. But the whole idea only really developed at earliest 250 years ago. It spread to Europe with the French Revolution. You see, nationalism used to be a liberal (in the literal sense) ideology: its proponents came mostly from bourgeois upper class people, with a wish to gain political power and to take it from the monarchs. Especially in Germany (which wasn't unified) and Poland (which was occupied by three different states), this longing for a more democratic way of things mixed with the wish for one nation for one people. And this was Nationalism.

 

After the failed Revolutions of the 1840s, the monarchs themselves started to use the nationalist ideology for their purposes. Most prominently, this led to the creation of a unified German Reich in the 1870s. From this point forward, nationalism became a tool of he monarchs, and it came to mean a strong support for your own country, its system and it's leaders. Essentially, it became the conservative kind of nationalism that we know today. And it prevailed... Poland, regardless of (at the time) still not having a nation, today does certainly represent the conservative type of nationalism.

 

So yeah. No such inherent thing as nations. Very new idea.

[SonicMage117]

That's a great point Ben and actually I'm so glad that "Nationalists" and "Extreme Patriotism" is becoming a thing (at the same time, it's sad that these labels must exist when 15-20 years ago they were just considered normal Americans). Now, in 2017, having a red, white and blue shirt or a car with a paintjob featuring stars and stripes is considered "extreme patriotism" by the general public. You may not even be able to legally enter some stores, schools, or other structures because of this. How America the great has fallen.

 

It's amazing to me that it doesn't phase anyone that both the national anthem and the American flag are being banned from many schools in America only because Liberals and SJW's are offended by it. We need sensible people to rise up and show that we can be proud of diversity of cultures in America while being proud to be an American.

 

Unfortunately the nation is so divided presently where EVERYTHING is an argument that the future of it is unpredictable. Someone says "I like the color blue" and someone else will say "Why not red? Do you have something against red?" It's fear, delusion and some other things and it's a shame to witness all of it but maybe we do need another tragedy, a war of some sort just to bring this nation back together and find a common enemy to fight together instead of fighting ourselves all the time.

 

The American flag has always been a symbol, it is painful to watch the country destroy it more than anyone we've gone to war with. Painful and embaressing.

[Ben No.3]

That's a great point Ben and actually I'm so glad that "Nationalists" and "Extreme Patriotism" is becoming a thing (at the same time, it's sad that these labels must exist when 15-20 years ago they were just considered normal Americans). Now, in 2017, having a red, white and blue shirt or a car with a paintjob featuring stars and stripes is considered "extreme patriotism" by the general public. You may not even be able to legally enter some stores, schools, or other structures because of this. How America the great has fallen.

 

It's amazing to me that it doesn't phase anyone that both the national anthem and the American flag are being banned from many schools in America only because Liberals and SJW's are offended by it. We need sensible people to rise up and show that we can be proud of diversity of cultures in America while being proud to be an American.

 

Unfortunately the nation is so divided presently where EVERYTHING is an argument that the future of it is unpredictable. Someone says "I like the color blue" and someone else will say "Why not red? Do you have something against red?" It's fear, delusion and some other things and it's a shame to witness all of it but maybe we do need another tragedy, a war of some sort just to bring this nation back together and find a common enemy to fight together instead of fighting ourselves all the time.

 

The American flag has always been a symbol, it is painful to watch the country destroy it more than anyone we've gone to war with. Painful and embaressing.

Am I not understanding or you? My point was that nations are not a "real thing" (whatever that is), but a fairly new construct we came up with. I.e., no one is American, we ourselves proclaim him to be American. A nation is whatever we decide a nation is, there is no inherent category of "nation".

[Chilloutman]

Woot?

[HoonDing]

no need to call black NFL players sons of bitches

 

like with neo-Nazis, I'm sure there are some very fine people among them

[Lexx]

I hereby proclaim this to be the nation of Lexxonia, and you all offend me.

[HoonDing]

Borussia Dortmund should take a knee for their horrible football

[Malcador]

That's a great point Ben and actually I'm so glad that "Nationalists" and "Extreme Patriotism" is becoming a thing (at the same time, it's sad that these labels must exist when 15-20 years ago they were just considered normal Americans). Now, in 2017, having a red, white and blue shirt or a car with a paintjob featuring stars and stripes is considered "extreme patriotism" by the general public. You may not even be able to legally enter some stores, schools, or other structures because of this. How America the great has fallen.

 

It's amazing to me that it doesn't phase anyone that both the national anthem and the American flag are being banned from many schools in America only because Liberals and SJW's are offended by it. We need sensible people to rise up and show that we can be proud of diversity of cultures in America while being proud to be an American.

 

Unfortunately the nation is so divided presently where EVERYTHING is an argument that the future of it is unpredictable. Someone says "I like the color blue" and someone else will say "Why not red? Do you have something against red?" It's fear, delusion and some other things and it's a shame to witness all of it but maybe we do need another tragedy, a war of some sort just to bring this nation back together and find a common enemy to fight together instead of fighting ourselves all the time.

 

The American flag has always been a symbol, it is painful to watch the country destroy it more than anyone we've gone to war with. Painful and embaressing.

What reasons are they giving for wanting the flag or anthem out of schools? Anthem is not needed and even the pledge is sort of bizarre from the outside. Well of course assuming any of that is true beyond FOAF tier sources.

[Guard Dog]

Thinking on it a bit longer, there is nothing wrong with seeing this protest as an insult to the flag and what it stands for. I've heard a lot of veterans voice their concerns that they fought for that symbol. I would never tell a Veteran that they are wrong to hold that opinion. That being said, I would also never tell a black person that they are wrong for protesting against racial inequalities. I've seen a lot of white people trying to explain that this is the wrong way to do it. They want these athletes fired or they want the NFL to make them stand. They want race and politics out of their sports. The President has joined in on that chorus. That sounds crazy to me. You are only strengthening the point these athletes have been making. The answer to a protest about oppression is not to oppress.

Sure it is disrespectful to the flag. Like i said before it's a small and petty gesture. And in all due respect to both you and Mr. Carlos I disagree with both of you. It does not even enter the same league as what he and Tommie Smith did in 1968 in terms of impact or justification. The reason being most of the NFL players participating in this demonstration can't articulate what it's really all about. Ask ten different players you'll likely get 6-7 different answers. Anyone who equates the civil rights problems of today with 1968 needs a serious lesson in perspective.

 

But, if they have a beef and want to demonstrate, more power to them. If people want to boo, boycott, burn merchandise, more power to them. If the President wants to tweet about it (although he should know better) then he's free to do so. If the NFL wants to fire them all, it can. If the owners want to join them on the sidelines and kneel too, good for them. They all have the complete right to do all these things. The only "protection" that exists is from the government. Not from being criticized, or ostracized, or being disagreed with by "not the government". No one was crying First Amendment when that guy at Google was fired for being at a rally a few months ago.

 

I once heard a story about a man walking around Rome shouting insults and blasphemies at God. A citizen walked up to a Cardinal and asked "Father won't you do something?" The priest replied "No my Son. If you believe in the Holy Father then that mans words are between him and God. You should not care. If you don't believe in God then he's insulting no one and you should not care". This situation is just like that.

 

When the anthem is played I stand up and cover my heart. It changes nothing to me if someone else does not. The US does not change into something else because someone else does not. I am accountable for no one's behavior other than my own. As long as they don't insist I join them they can do as they please. That's enough for me,

[SonicMage117]

What reasons are they giving for wanting the flag or anthem out of schools? Anthem is not needed and even the pledge is sort of bizarre from the outside. Well of course assuming any of that is true beyond FOAF tier sources.

You must not have kids in school, everything is getting banned -somewhere in every state"- for being offensive, no other reason but that really. Do they really need another reason?

 

Anything to do with crosses has gotten banned for offending freedom of islamic religeon, flags have gotten banned for being hate-speech, pledge of allegiance gets banned for saying "God". It's silly that everyone whines protecting freedoms but yet these freedoms have been stripped. Kinda comical really. Everyone gets so offended at ecerything now days.

[SonicMage117]

The following videos explain it better than I can... Of course there are far more examples than this that have been documented but I think they will do.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by SonicMage117

[SonicMage117]

https://youtu.be/r13-26cOGXM

[Malcador]

Well as I said the pledge is really weird to me both in it existing and saying it daily.   InfoWars aside, ta. I will give that a look.  

[Guard Dog]

There are times I regret not having children. Then there are other times when I feel relived. How do you raise rational, free thinking adults in a society that demands assimilation and conformity to one brand of ignorance or the other? 

[Malcador]

Well people have done it in the past and not like societies were never like that. Can't be harder than raising responsible adults from children.

 

Maybe read Rand to them as toddlers

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well people have done it in the past and not like societies were never like that. Can't be harder than raising responsible adults from children.

Maybe read Rand to them as toddlers

Why would you inflict such poor literature on anyone, let alone a child?

[213374U]

How do you raise rational, free thinking adults in a society that demands assimilation and conformity to one brand of ignorance or the other? 

 

Inside a cave?

 

The larger problem is the criterion, because of course, everyone believes themselves to be free thinking, rational and unique individuals. Hell, you might even succeed, and raise the next Ted Kaczynski...

Edited September 27, 2017 by 213374U

[Malcador]

 

Well people have done it in the past and not like societies were never like that. Can't be harder than raising responsible adults from children.

Maybe read Rand to them as toddlers

Why would you inflict such poor literature on anyone, let alone a child?

Well, it'll make them the kind that announce their free thinking status. Close enough, no?

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, we do the pledge every day and you can wear an American flag shirt whenever you want. All of those examples are weird exceptions to the norm. Most of them are better examples of bungling administrations than any war on the American flag.

 

That Infowars story is the best. I live next to that school. It's fake news at its finest.

[Ben No.3]

 

How do you raise rational, free thinking adults in a society that demands assimilation and conformity to one brand of ignorance or the other?

Inside a cave?

 

Do i hear Plato?

[HoonDing]

Trump grabbed the flag by the ****, he's one to talk!

 

[Ben No.3]

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

[redneckdevil]

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

I'm uncertain how the pledge is scary and don't have a problem with "under God" in it. Granted I can see the issue to remove it, but it doesn't effect me if they remove or keep it.

I fully agree with you though about religious items being banned (unless for a project or something) and even go as far as to say trying to influence children into a political party is also a huge no-no in my book.

[ShadySands]

Wasn't the under god bit added in back when we were adding god to a lot of things to spite/fight those godless commies? Also wasn't it originally said along with the Bellamy salute instead of the hand over heart?

 

Trying to recall as I'm sure we've had this discussion before.

 

PS sorry for any typos because I'm writing this from my phone in the Arby's drive thru

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShadySands

[Gfted1]

Wasn't the under god bit added in back when we were adding god to a lot of things to spite/fight those godless commies? Also wasn't it originally said along with the Bellamy salute instead of the hand over heart?

 

Trying to recall as I'm sure we've had this discussion before.

 

PS sorry for any typos because I'm writing this from my phone in the Arby's drive thru

 

President Eisenhower signs “In God We Trust” into law.