Request: Non-binary player character

Lord_Mord · August 29, 2017

That is antagonistic and entire unhelpful. It isn't even useful in proving a point.

The point is to constantly adress her in a way she does not like to be adressed. And let her see the implications. She said, that gender means either having a **** or a vagina and nothing more. That is not true. There are always implications. In this case I chose a more sexist approach to make my point clearer, but even if I didn't Sakai would be viewed differently as a woman. In my opinion she knows that and only plays the naive girl. I don't care. Teasing girls is so much fun.

Wormerine · August 29, 2017

Well, if you are asking for representation, then you're in luck. PoE is pretty much the most aetheistic video game setting out there given that it is more or less an adaptation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".
It's not really atheistic at all though, it only appears that way to those who associate being a theist with believing in a monotheistic creator deity. Take the Greek gods for example: they didn't create the world, they didn't create humanity and they themselves were created by others. The Eoran gods are similar, the only difference is that they were created by the kith rather than being descended (ultimately) from the sky and the earth. Moreover the fact that the Eoran gods were created by the Engwithans doesn't mean there isn't a creator deity in the Eoran universe. The existence of a creator god is no more or less likely than it is in our own world, so even if you do insist on a creator god there could be one. In fact I think the emergence of a monotheistic religion in opposition to the worship of the "false" Engwithan gods could be an interesting development for the franchise, particularly in light of the revelation that the gods were created by kith.

This isn't quite accurate though. The Engwithans are said by Iovara to have found out that there was indeed 'nothing' where they believed to be gods, and thus created surrogate gods for people to not lose faith. The reason is important here, as it is not the same reason that motivated the creation of the gods in Greek mythology or other faiths. In Pillars you are only left with the atheist position in the end, because the gods are just there to conceal the nothingness that is behind. After my first playthrough of the game I was pretty curious about the possibility of there being amidst the gods we know of in the game a 'real' god that hid himself amidst the constructs (I assumed that to be Wael). However, the way Iovara and Thaos both phrase their revelations leaves no room for such ambiguities.

The ending of PoE is so brilliant because it is quite a complex idea and you can look at it from many angles. We know that in PoE Gods don't exist. Or didn't exist. Not in a typical fantasy setting. They are powerful, superhuman beings.... but they are created by humans. I am glad we weren't force to make any decisions regarding Gods at the end of PoE as I really don't know what my character would do so soon after revelation. Yes, Gods are not what they were made to be. But can people do without them? We have seen good & bad of what gods can do. I don't know, Thaos did have a point.

Sakai · August 29, 2017

See, that bit I bolded is a perfect example of why it is as profound as I say it is in you too, as even as you deny noticing it there are qualities you immediately associate with the feminine and the masculine. The strength and awareness of these matters varies from culture to culture and individual to individual but it is there, in every society there is a determined role and assumed behaviour for both male and female that is indoctrinated to us from a young age. I cannot speak for your childhood experiences but in my case all of the following seemed pretty true, if not to me then to others: if you spend too much time with another guy, being close friends and so on, the rest of the kids assume intimacy and start calling you gay; if you show any tendencies that might be described as soft or feminine, you are assumed to be gay; 'gay' is itself the ickiest thing a boy of a young age can be accused of because it also implies a loss of virility, you like boys like girls do. But boys are meant to be strong, boys don't cry, boys stand up and are tough and so on. We learn from a young age thanks to peer pressure that masculinity is represented best by a particular set of characteristics, and feminity by the opposite characteristics as well. Girls like Barbie dolls, boys don't. Boys like video games, girls don't. If a boy likes girl pop, something is wrong with him, he's less of a man for it. If a woman likes boxing, she is more of a tomboy and less of a woman for it. As brother of a professional boxer I've seen countless times where women were less appealing to the men in the room because they happened to box.

None of this means that because a boy likes dolls he does not identify as male or because a girl boxes she does not identify as female, of course, but the societal prejudices and pressures towards members of either sex still exist and whenever you go against them you are bound to create friction with someone or other. Again, nowadays this is opening up, the societal norms for how men and women must be is no longer as strict or clear-cut, and are growing more evident in light of growing awareness of sexism, feminism, patriachial structures, homophobia, queer culture and so on. Amidst it all more people are feeling like what they know to be "male" or "female" and what they feel society asks of them as such is not who they are and want to be. Perhaps the pressure of adhering to the gender expectations is something you never felt, I'd be inclined to believe that it's a pressure you are unaware or don't want to acknowledge you ever felt, but if you indeed haven't then it still doesn't preclude that many others have.

While i do not at all subscribe to the idea that everything about us is determined by society, this is not really relevant here. The point is that what you're describing is supposed to be some massive effect that shapes us at every step we take. Veer slightly to the left or to the right, and society immidiatly tries to put you back in your place. And that is something i simply do not see. Neither in my own experience, nor anywhere else. And to clarify, i'm not oblivious to the fact there are stereotypes, and some expectations and so on. But any of that is hardly enough to start inventing new genders.

firkraag888 · August 29, 2017

Is this thread a joke?

Seriously wtf is this crap.

I don't play games like pillars to read ****e like this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OP has a transgender partner and wa ts here to be an option to select a protagonist as one?

The is frickin terrible

Gfted1 · August 29, 2017

There there, everything will be okay. Its obvious that you didnt bother reading the 8 pages of discussion that have spawned from the OP, much of which is excellent thoughts / ideas / opinions, but instead you chose to vomit into the thread. Please feel free to not participate in the future. :thumbsup:

KDubya · August 29, 2017

Sure. But what would you do? You can't have every NPC just KNOW that you identify as some third gender. Unless they are already familiar with you the PC would have to correct them. Then you have to script that interaction. Will they be ``sure, whatever" about it, or have some other, more interesting, an development intense, response? And it would have to be consistent. My number one complaint about Dragon Age: Origins is that they are inconsistent about using the player's back ground. Playing as the dwarven noble was especially immersion braking as a result. If they had just thrown the whole Origins' to the wind, it wouldn't have been a big deal. Do it right or don't do it at all.

edit: Not only that, but the devs would have to make sure they don't offend anyone in the process. And THAT would take a lot of effort. Think about the trans character in Mass Defect: Andromeda. Bioware has a track record of being very inclusive with stuff like that, but the bungled it to such a degree that everyone was mad at them.

This is the problem that I see in trying to implement this request. Doing it right would take a lot of effort and would have a certainty of offending someone or even everyone.

If all it is is a character choice at creation and a few different pronouns in a few scripted interactions, that seems like a waste but go ahead and try to get the Devs to do that.

EbonyBetty · August 29, 2017

Hello some people expressed interest in reading the article and here it is, Fostering Intrinsic Motivation through Avatar Identification in Digital Games. I also have done a little bit of coding and making they/them pronouns lock in during text conversations aren't that hard, I did it when I had to do a virtual choose your own adventure novel for a class. All you have to do NAME = name$ (conform), if I can do it, I'm pretty sure Obsidian can do it too.

Also video games don't have to conform to euro-centeric ideals even if it takes place in "medieval times." The years of "medieval" were not concentrated around Europe. In specific Native American tribes and Nigerian culture a person who is born a biological male but has feminie qualities is a complete other gender and is considered blessed. Even in patricarchal societies such as the Middle East and India where sons are held in a higher regard than daughters. If the daughter has done something to make her family proud of her, the father will now address her as his "son" (even when she herself still uses female pronouns), it's seen a great respect. Obsidian has said may times before that they've borrowed ideas from other cultures when writing their games.

Edited August 29, 2017 by EbonyBetty

firkraag888 · August 29, 2017

There there, everything will be okay. Its obvious that you didnt bother reading the 8 pages of discussion that have spawned from the OP, much of which is excellent thoughts / ideas / opinions, but instead you chose to vomit into the thread. Please feel free to not participate in the future.

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.

Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ******* characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Gfted1
Lets leave slurs out of the conversations, please. :)

injurai · August 29, 2017

Well as far as Native American culture, I'm guessing you are referencing the prevalent understanding that feminine was tied with the supernatural world and the masculine was tied to the physical world. So someone "transgender" had a spirit connected to the supernatural and was expected to fulfill the role of a medicine man, seer, or shaman. It wasn't so much that one was specially blessed above others. It's probably best not to use one stroke to speak of two different cultures at once, and you do it twice back to back.

Gfted1 · August 29, 2017

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.

Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ******* characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.

Do you really need to be told that if you do not like to read about a certain topic, then you shouldn't click on that topic? Ok, I'll help out...it is evident that you are not interested in talking about this topic in a civil manner, so you should not participate in this topic. Everyone wins!

Believe it or not, this is exactly a suitable platform to discuss this topic. :yes:

smjjames · August 29, 2017

There there, everything will be okay. Its obvious that you didnt bother reading the 8 pages of discussion that have spawned from the OP, much of which is excellent thoughts / ideas / opinions, but instead you chose to vomit into the thread. Please feel free to not participate in the future.

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.

Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ladyboy characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.

If you don't want to read or participate in the thread, then don't. Nobody's forcing you to.

@Kdubya: Yeah, the issue isn't so much "are they able to implement it" than "do they feel that it's worth the risk of delving deeply into a, tricky, if you will, subject. As you say, it's hard to get it right and as developers, they'd have to walk a fine balance. There will always be that 1% of the internet that will always be offended by stuff like this, but getting it right would be a big deal.

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.

Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ladyboy characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.

Do you really need to be told that if you do not like to read about a certain topic, then you shouldn't click on that topic? Ok, I'll help out...it is evident that you are not interested in talking about this topic in a civil manner, so you should not participate in this topic. Everyone wins!

Believe it or not, this is exactly a suitable platform to discuss this topic.

^

Exactly this

Edited August 29, 2017 by smjjames

firkraag888 · August 29, 2017

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ladyboy characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.
Do you really need to be told that if you do not like to read about a certain topic, then you shouldn't click on that topic? Ok, I'll help out...it is evident that you are not interested in talking about this topic in a civil manner, so you should not participate in this topic. Everyone wins!Believe it or not, this is exactly a suitable platform to discuss this topic.

Yeah sure. The under 18 kids on this forum need to learn about this stuff from all the creeps on here.

Pull your head in.

And I'm sure obsidian would appreciate you stating that there official forums are the ideal place for transgender debate.

Edited August 29, 2017 by firkraag888

smjjames · August 29, 2017

I should note that PoE1 isn't exactly an under 18 game either, what with drugs and the whorehouse and occasional salty language.

EbonyBetty · August 29, 2017

@injurai Okay , so if I'm understanding this correctly a trans female Native American during a pre-Europe America who is destined to be a Shaman and/or Seer aka one of the leaders of the community and a highly respectable position isn't considered blessed? Meanwhile in Nigeria a trans female or trans male are considered "Zuru oni okè" or "perfect soul" because in Nigerian beliefs a human being posses both masculine and feminine characteristics which represents balance, a man cannot live without woman and vice versa, but a zuru oni okè possesses that balance in one body. I'm not trying to "stroke" my ego, I'm just saying that gender is often looked between European lens and it doesn't hurt to stray away from that.

But you're absolutely right, I should have been more specific and now I have.

Edited August 29, 2017 by EbonyBetty

Lord_Mord · August 29, 2017

Yeah sure. The under 18 kids on this forum need to learn about this stuff from all the creeps on here.

You have to see the bright side: Now that you are here, they can learn from your manners.

smjjames · August 29, 2017

You criticise me for not reading threw this thread? And even partake in insulting me.Beilive it or not mate people aren't interested in reading about ladyboy characters being introduced as protagonists nor would I have thought this forum to be the suitable platform to be discussing this crap.
Do you really need to be told that if you do not like to read about a certain topic, then you shouldn't click on that topic? Ok, I'll help out...it is evident that you are not interested in talking about this topic in a civil manner, so you should not participate in this topic. Everyone wins!Believe it or not, this is exactly a suitable platform to discuss this topic.
Yeah sure. The under 18 kids on this forum need to learn about this stuff from all the creeps on here.

Pull your head in.

And I'm sure obsidian would appreciate you stating that there official forums are the ideal place for transgender debate.

Um, if they had objections, they'd have voiced them by now. The devs may not participate much on the forum, but they DO read the forum.

Also, it sounds like you're trying to shut down the discussion.

Edited August 29, 2017 by smjjames

EbonyBetty · August 29, 2017

I should note that PoE1 isn't exactly an under 18 game either, what with drugs and the whorehouse and occasional salty language.

And even if a kid was in here, they're simply learning more knowledge and information about gender/identity. Whether they believe it or do something with said knowledge is up to them, but it never hurts to see what both sides are saying.

btw, im agreeing with you smjjames I hope I didn't come across as self righteous

Edited August 29, 2017 by EbonyBetty

Gfted1 · August 29, 2017

Yeah sure. The under 18 kids on this forum need to learn about this stuff from all the creeps on here.

Pull your head in.

And I'm sure obsidian would appreciate you stating that there official forums are the ideal place for transgender debate.

:lol:

The wonderful thing about the internet is that your despicable opinions are preserved for posterity.

Feel free to make use of the Report button if you feel mistreated and my higher up's will review the matter. :thumbsup:

Fluffle · August 29, 2017

Hmm okay, this will be the only time I react to firkraag888 and such alike.

Whoever he is, he has only one goal in mind. And that is not participating in this thread as many of you can hopefully see.

He simply wants to have this thread shut down.

And everyone who reacts to him in any manner, including myself with this post, does help him achieving that goal.

So let's just ignore him and let's have the moderators handle him.

His plan his to engage us with him, so we help him derail this thread, so it gets shut down.

But even it it comes to that, I think for the most part this discussion stayed civil and had some good ideas and opinions and that is something

firkraag888 cannot take away anymore even if the thread gets closed.

Lord_Mord · August 29, 2017

About all that shaman stuff: Do you have any sources for that, or is it just internet knowledge?

ThatUndeadLegacy · August 29, 2017

I should note that PoE1 isn't exactly an under 18 game either, what with drugs and the whorehouse and occasional salty language.

Dont worry all the kids seem to play gta 5 and csgo.

algroth · August 29, 2017

See, that bit I bolded is a perfect example of why it is as profound as I say it is in you too, as even as you deny noticing it there are qualities you immediately associate with the feminine and the masculine. The strength and awareness of these matters varies from culture to culture and individual to individual but it is there, in every society there is a determined role and assumed behaviour for both male and female that is indoctrinated to us from a young age. I cannot speak for your childhood experiences but in my case all of the following seemed pretty true, if not to me then to others: if you spend too much time with another guy, being close friends and so on, the rest of the kids assume intimacy and start calling you gay; if you show any tendencies that might be described as soft or feminine, you are assumed to be gay; 'gay' is itself the ickiest thing a boy of a young age can be accused of because it also implies a loss of virility, you like boys like girls do. But boys are meant to be strong, boys don't cry, boys stand up and are tough and so on. We learn from a young age thanks to peer pressure that masculinity is represented best by a particular set of characteristics, and feminity by the opposite characteristics as well. Girls like Barbie dolls, boys don't. Boys like video games, girls don't. If a boy likes girl pop, something is wrong with him, he's less of a man for it. If a woman likes boxing, she is more of a tomboy and less of a woman for it. As brother of a professional boxer I've seen countless times where women were less appealing to the men in the room because they happened to box.

None of this means that because a boy likes dolls he does not identify as male or because a girl boxes she does not identify as female, of course, but the societal prejudices and pressures towards members of either sex still exist and whenever you go against them you are bound to create friction with someone or other. Again, nowadays this is opening up, the societal norms for how men and women must be is no longer as strict or clear-cut, and are growing more evident in light of growing awareness of sexism, feminism, patriachial structures, homophobia, queer culture and so on. Amidst it all more people are feeling like what they know to be "male" or "female" and what they feel society asks of them as such is not who they are and want to be. Perhaps the pressure of adhering to the gender expectations is something you never felt, I'd be inclined to believe that it's a pressure you are unaware or don't want to acknowledge you ever felt, but if you indeed haven't then it still doesn't preclude that many others have.

While i do not at all subscribe to the idea that everything about us is determined by society, this is not really relevant here. The point is that what you're describing is supposed to be some massive effect that shapes us at every step we take. Veer slightly to the left or to the right, and society immidiatly tries to put you back in your place. And that is something i simply do not see. Neither in my own experience, nor anywhere else. And to clarify, i'm not oblivious to the fact there are stereotypes, and some expectations and so on. But any of that is hardly enough to start inventing new genders.

I think you are blowing a tad out of proportion the things I wrote above. You say I'm saying society will reprimand and correct you if you veer slightly left or right of an expected norm, but that ignores the fact that I do recognize plenty of diversity and choice within the boundaries set by society as to how men and women should be and act. If you step out of those broad boundaries, then you will meet friction, and at times cruelty, from certain groups in society. Stereotypes come from taking these expectations to an absurd degree, but that's not what I'm talking about here, I'm talking about gender roles. Personally I don't see how it is not a determining factor in the growth of any person, whether one recognizes it in their case or not, and also believe that your wording as I highlighted in my previous post shows you are not an exception to this rule. Likewise I do believe these are more openly challenged nowadays so the boundaries themselves are blurrier or more flexible than they have been in other times.

All of this I offer as reasoning to why gender is important, and as a possible reason to why some people may not identify with their sex. Others might offer different reasons but it is something which I feel speaks to most non-cis people I know. Now, do I use this as a justification for "inventing new genders"? Well, firstly I must ask what you mean by this, but taken at face value, my answer is "no" because I don't exactly like the practice of finding new labels for each specific deviation from male or female. You can identify as both or as neither, and I think there can be a number of variations or hybrids of either, but I don't necessarily think each of them warrant a new term and pronoun to go along with these. In fact I find that practice rather arrogant and misguided, working under the assumption that your case is so singular and special that it warrants its own unique classification. But then, as a general rule I try not to pigeonhole and classify things that are in no need of pigeonholing either.

Edited August 29, 2017 by algroth

HooAmEye · August 29, 2017

About all that shaman stuff: Do you have any sources for that, or is it just internet knowledge?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_in_mythology

This is a great start, and is surprisingly well sourced.

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/culture/social-issues/8-misconceptions-things-know-two-spirit-people/

For the First Nation

KDubya · August 30, 2017

@Kdubya: Yeah, the issue isn't so much "are they able to implement it" than "do they feel that it's worth the risk of delving deeply into a, tricky, if you will, subject. As you say, it's hard to get it right and as developers, they'd have to walk a fine balance. There will always be that 1% of the internet that will always be offended by stuff like this, but getting it right would be a big deal.

I've been spending a lot of time on HareBrained Scheme's Battletech, another kickstarter game like PoE. A saying that they use like a mantra there is "focus=quality" Anything that does not improve the core of the game is discarded, no chasing the rabbit down the hole like Star Citizen trying to be all things to all people. I hope Sawyer and the rest follow this as well and focus on what is important for this game and franchise and leave the rest alone.

Bethesda games get by with putting out a barely fleshed out game and gameworld with the knowledge that modders will do the rest of the heavy lifting in fleshing out the world and the fact that many of their fans don't care they just want more dakka dakka and a fully rendered 'murder death simulator 4.0' like Fallout 4.

Bioware has gone down the rails on the crazy train and seem more interested in social commentary than good games. Witness the decline in quality and the increase in social issues in both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games.

After the success of PoE I hope that they concentrate on what made PoE great and expand on that. I'd like the game world to take more notice of your particular race and background, make it meaningful and have it come up frequently in conversations. Have it where being from Aedyr causes locals to attack or at least be unfriendly. Have different places treat different races better or worse. Give us nationalism and racism. Since it is in a fantasy setting no one in the real world can get mad if Elves are picked on or the like. These topics can be safely explored as they are not set in our world.

Doing the same thing for gender identity does not have the same capacity for protection based on a fantasy setting. In game if transgendered characters are persecuted that will set off a real world firestorm which the game does not need. Look back at the problems concerning a single limerick written in an obscure and hard to locate/easy to ignore location. The game developers could and did take refuge in that it was written by a backer and they could claim improper vetting by an intern or some such lame excuse. If they officially enter the social debate by having in game reactions based on gender identity then there will be no such protection.

Better for Obsidian to be called cowards or heartless by not touching this in any manner rather than jumping into the middle of a charged issue in the current highly charged social and political spectrum.

Lord_Mord · August 30, 2017

https://en.wikipedia...es_in_mythology

This is a great start, and is surprisingly well sourced.

https://indiancountr...-spirit-people/

For the First Nation

Thanks for that. Especially the first one is very interesting.

Request: Non-binary player character

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