Multi-classing - hopes, dreams, wild speculation

[mouf]

For me it's easily the most interesting feature coming (hopping bird animations not withstanding), so I thought I'd get a hype thread going.

 

Here's the vid with the most detail, for anyone who missed it. Obviously a lot we still don't know, and everything's still subject to change (and going by recent form, as much after release as before it). But probably fair to assume that the designers had the classes roughly where they wanted them by v3, so other than the tweaks necessary to suit them to a the multi-class system I doubt there will be much change, at least in terms of fundamental mechanics or class-defining abilities. Which is a roundabout way of saying I'm going to speculate madly and nobody can stop me.

 

The 75-85% rule seems intended to keep wonky builds viable, so in that spirit I'm thinking of which classes could work as a secondary with just a handful of levels, ending up 17/3 or even 19/1, letting you change up the playstyle and still get most of the high-level goodies available to the primary class.

 

Just going through the list:

 

Barbarian - seems like the ultimate one-point wonder for any melee class, just for carnage. I suspect there will be changes there, eg spreading on-hit effects requires a separate talent further up the barb tree.

 

Chanter - great for action economy, as it all goes on in the background. Maybe limited to weapon users, if it turns out spellcasting interrupts chants (makes sense that it would). Usefulness will depend on where the key phrases are - if eg ila's sure arrows is still at 3, it could be well worth for a ranged dps to grab it just as a fire-and-forget buff, never mind the skellies.

 

Cipher - similarly good economy for any weapon-user, as focus will generate naturally. I imagine the problem would be more in discharging it fast enough to stop it capping out and turning off the whip, since you'll only have the cheap powers available

 

Druid - depends how well shapeshift scales - could be a neat choice for ranged chars who need a way to delete the odd diver in the backline. If it's just a touch too weak though it becomes kind of a deathtrap. Won't have much time for casting, but those beast control spells could be handy

 

Fighter - has been in kind of a weird spot since they upgraded the AI to exploit their one weakness: not really being able to do much but stand there and bop things. Probably the best candidate for changes, i guess we'll see. If extra engagements become more useful, could dip in to grab defender for a frontliner, i suppose

 

Monk - good economy, as wounds generate themselves and abilities that aren't passive tend to be fast. If there's any good CC or self-buffs at early levels it could be a worthy pickup for a frontliner, or anyone who plans to get hit a lot. I dunno though, I feel like monk synergizes with itself so well, it would be kind of a waste to only take a splash of it

 

Paladin - doesn't seem like it would work that well. Aura is nice I suppose, but the defense boosts take more levels to accumulate, and most of the good stuff arrives later. I imagine it will be one of the better classes to make proper hybrids out of though, since they have buckets of utility and their abilities just work, there's no faffing around with resources or conditions.

 

Priest - could be worth it for the god-specific accuracy bonus, and even a downscaled radiance would see plenty of use. Probably won't have much time to cast spells, though, except maybe frantic minor heals in desperate moments. Also god-related stuff in dialogues and the disposition juggling minigame, those are fun. That goes for pallys too. How priest/paladins work will be interesting to see

 

Ranger - depends how the companion scales, but probably not that useful without investment

 

Rogue - sneak attack, possibly escape - worth considering for any damage dealer I would've thought

 

Wizard - wand-related abilities I guess, if you're making some funky blaster that isn't a wizard to begin with. Otherwise, same problem with opportunity cost as other casters - it's a lot of time to spend doing something you're not very good at.

 

*

 

So, there's that. Probably not worth putting that much thought into it when there's still so much to be revealed. For all we know they might have chopped up those class-defining abilities and spread them around to prevent exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. Oh well, too late now.

 

Thoughts?

[Boeroer]

My thoughts are Cipher with Carnage, Monk with Turning Wheel, Flames of Devotion and Intense Flames plus Scion of Flame, Monk with Turning Wheel and Wildstrike Burn, Rogue with Priest of Skaen, Barbarian with Citzal's Spirit Lance, Monk with Rooting Pain, Battle Forged, Turning Wheel, Barbaric Reatliation and retaliation gear, Wizard in plate with Armored Grace, Fighter with Take the Hit and Her Courage Thick as Steel, Druid with Rot Skulls plus Blast and many more thoughts. So many thoughts...

 

A lvl 20 Paladin will have 11 uses of Flames of Devotion per encounter by the way (in PoE II). I guess there's a sweet spot where you can have a good synergy between FoD uses and other classes' abilities like Wildstrike or Carnage or whatever.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Multi-classing + hype thread going + Thoughts?

The power builds will try to combine the best of two worlds classes)

 

I am also quite interested in:

- how far Deathblows and Minor Avatar will be able to pump DoTs damage.

- how will Barbaric Blow compare with Flames of Devotion

- how strong will Their Champion be, provided that chants will no longer be ranked

- cipher with Twinned Arrows, and a mobile pet for Ectopsychic Echo

- the mechanics behind Torment's Reach, and it's interaction with Citzal's Lance, Carnage and focus generation.

- cc-focused wizard/fighter frontliner (min MIG, max INT/PER), with Disciplined Barrage + Knockdowns and per-encounter Bewildering Spectacle, Confusion, Shadowflame

and so on...

 

But first of all we need to know the scaling formula for abilities' damage and duration in function of power_level. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by MaxQuest

[FlintlockJazz]

 I'm thinking Cipher/Ranger assuming you can still do a melee Ranger.  I'd be curious to see if they would allow the animal companion to generate Cipher focus...

Edited July 25, 2017 by FlintlockJazz

[MaxQuest]

I'd be curious to see if they would allow the animal companion to generate Cipher focus...

Betcha it not gonna happen) As it would be a very sensible boost.

On the other hand if Reaping Knives Claws would become applicable to your Animal Companion...

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I'd be curious to see if they would allow the animal companion to generate Cipher focus...

Betcha it not gonna happen) As it would be a very sensible boost.

On the other hand if Reaping Knives Claws would become applicable to your Animal Companion...

 

Yeah I was thinking that since precedent for another character generating Focus for you with Reaping Knives and that since animal companions are meant to be bonded on the soul level with the character that it would make sense, but yeah as you said probably not gonna happen.   Reaping Claws for your animal companion would be awesome!  Phear the glowing purple claws of ma kitty!!!

[smjjames]

I'm thinking of doing a rogue/monk multiclass combo. Not sure what combination of skills, but there are a bunch which aren't dependent on on being unarmed which would definetly benefit rogue and I'm sure there are rogue skills that would benefit monk. Here's the concept that I made a few months ago with PoE2 in mind.

 

Also, given how spiritshifted druids can only do 'unarmed', even if the spiritshift form has claws, I wonder how the spiritshift focused druid subclass will interface with monk.

Edited July 25, 2017 by smjjames

[Boeroer]

Like they do with Novice's Suffering.

 

The Long Pain with Deathblows might be quite awesome - if the boost from Deathblows is higher than the power_level scaling of Long Pain.

 

Since the Long Pain works with all sorts of "melee only" abilities (even Knockdown from the Girdle of the Driving Wave) maybe it also works with Carnage? One can dream...

Edited July 26, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

It's also interesting if the spells from Ninagauth's Black Pages, Llengrath's Grimoire and The Ironclasped (Concelhaut) grimoires will make it into Deadfire.

[MortyTheGobbo]

My plan is to run a Fighter/Rogue. It's a thematic choice more than a mechanical one, but combining the rogue's damage with the fighter's stickiness and toughness should be interesting.

[Madscientist]

All of this is just speculation, but here are my ideas for future chars:

 

- The classical fighter/mage with mage self buffs and summoned weapons and fighters weapon specialisation and defensive talents. This should hit hard while having good defense. Spell duration is fixed (not based on caster level), so you have many low level spells and some medium level spells. Spell accurency is not so importent when you use mostly buffs.

 

- Druid/monk focused on shapeshifting. Assuming a medium level shapeshift has higher damage than a monk fist (with greater wildstrike and elemental bonus). You hit very hard and when you get hit you can strike back with monk powers. Plus you get a few druid spells.

 

- chanter/barbarian: The chants work passively unless you cast a spell and they hit everyone around you. Barbs want many enemies around them because of carnage. I think of a high level barb who uses low level chants to passively damage or debuff enemies around him.

 

- Ranger might be bad for multiclassing if the animal stays weak and a dead animal gives a debuff to the ranger. Otherwise a ranger/rogue might be good. The pet causes flanked and you use twin arrows with sneak attack. Even more useful if deep wounds works together with the talent that the pet causes more damage on enemies with dots (sorry, name forgotten).

 

- Multi classing a barbarian depends mostly on how things work together with carnage (focus generation, sneak attack, monk special attacks, shapeshifting, . . .)

 

- Multi classing casters depends on how good their high level spells are. If they are very powerful, you want to stay with a single class. If they are not so great, combining the caster with something else will lead to a caster who can fight well or somebody who can cast many different kinds of spells (like mage/priest)

[smjjames]

- Druid/monk focused on shapeshifting. Assuming a medium level shapeshift has higher damage than a monk fist (with greater wildstrike and elemental bonus). You hit very hard and when you get hit you can strike back with monk powers. Plus you get a few druid spells.

 

Oh yeah, I can imagine the shapeshift focused druid/monk would be pretty strong since both rely on unarmed fighting and would reinforce each other.

 

As for the ranger, there is a subclass (Ghost Heart) where the pet is a summonable creature, so, petless (as close as it gets to that anyway) ranger multiclasses are possible.

[CottonWolf]

A melee paladin/ranger seems like it would be great for soloing. Up the survivability with Zealous Endurance, then use the pet as a DPS boost, with all the coordinating talents, and the one that increases defences against AoEs when both targets are hit. Not that I ever play these games solo, but it's a pretty obvious one.

[Raven Darkholme]

Cipher with Carnage sounds quite badass.

Idk what you would combine a chanter with, but I assume a solo class chanter with PoE 1 features is still stronger than any multiclass with PoE 1 features, so ofc multying it can only make it stronger, but who knows maybe chahnters get nerfed. (yeah right)

[FlintlockJazz]

Maybe that's why Serafen is multi'd as a Cipher/Barbarian?  Because Obsidian want in on the best combinations this time through as well!

[smjjames]

Maybe that's why Serafen is multi'd as a Cipher/Barbarian?  Because Obsidian want in on the best combinations this time through as well!

 

Actually, that just means that his first class can only be cipher or barbarian, the second class can be freely chosen.

[Madscientist]

I have a question:

Often a paladin is considered as kind of fighter/cleric mix. At least I heared this in DnD.

Do you think you could create a fighter/priest that is more powerful (tough as a fighter and buffs/debuffs/healing of a priest) than a pure paladin?

Since all abilities will be per encounter, priest will lose the disadvantage that they have to rest to refill their spells.

[Boeroer]

It's not a disadvantage. In PoE's "per-rest-system" you could cast 4 spells in every spell level in an encounter if you were fully rested.

 

In PoE2's "per-encounter-system" you can only cast 2 spells in every spell level.

 

This makes PoE1's priest better for tough encounters and less useful for trash fights (if you want to minimize resting) while PoE2's priest will be worse in boss fights. But at the same time you don't have to hold back in trash fights.

 

However, for boss fights the PoE2 priest will also have empower uses. This will not give him more spells (I guess), but make some of his casts a lot more powerful.

 

I doubt that you can compare a fighter/priest to a paladin. Paladins are too unique in PoE and different from a fighting priest.

 

I also don't think that the synergies between fighter and priest are especially good. Not like monk/druid or maybe cipher/barbarian or whatever. But that's just speculation to be honest.

 

By the way: a lvl 20 paladin in PoE2 will have 11 uses of Flames of Devotion per encounter. Pretty awesome...

[smjjames]

I guess it might be a disadvantage if you pull a large aggro or engage in combat again before combat with the first group goes out of combat mode. Easily solveable by slowing down a bit or kiting off some from a large group.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I will try Rogue/Wizard. Any powerful summoned weapon like Citzals combined with all of the Rogue bumps for damage will be quite nasty. Key is surviving the early game....

[Boeroer]

Most likely Sneak Attack will not work with the blast of the lance. But maybe Deathblows does like in PoE1.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Most likely Sneak Attack will not work with the blast of the lance. But maybe Deathblows does like in PoE1.

Even the Parasitic Staff was powerful. Who knows what spells are to appear in Deadfire? Hopefully I'm not disappointed!

[Nail]

 

Most likely Sneak Attack will not work with the blast of the lance. But maybe Deathblows does like in PoE1.

Even the Parasitic Staff was powerful. Who knows what spells are to appear in Deadfire? Hopefully I'm not disappointed!

 

More powerful are the spells to make wizard capable for melee fight like:

Merciless Gaze

Mirrored Image

Llengrath's Displaced Image / Physical Shields / Mental Shields / Safeguard / Siphoning Image

Citzal's Martial Power

[JohnSmith921030]

While I understand (and agree) with current information released about multiclassing, something I haven't seen that could be useful in distinguishing multiclassed characters from single classed ones is addition of unique features not existing in other combos. For example:

 

You could have a Wizard with, say, (idle) animation/cantrip-like ability A + higher level ability A, Wizard/Cipher with animation/cantrip-like ability B + higher level ability B and Cipher with animation/cantrip-like ability C + higher level ability C.

 

These abilities wouldn't make any single class combo stronger than the other and would go a long way to make every uniquely named single and multiclass option feel distinct and having their own flavor, instead of the multiclass being just class A + class B, but (necessarily) not as specialized.

Edited August 23, 2017 by JohnSmith921030

[zered]

How about barbarian/rogue? Sounds quite bonkers when to think about it.