Politics Episode 8: WWF Edition

[Guard Dog]

Oh and Ben in your previous post you are conflating the actions of governments with economic systems again. Communism tends to permit terrible governments because is requires a concentrations of absolute power over the state and people to be implemented. People being people once they have absolute power do terrible things with it. The enemy in the end is not economics, it's governments. Communism did not kill millions of Russians during the "purges", the Soviet government did. But the Soviet government does not exist without Communism. Every evil act in human history begins with this terrible need, this sickness in the human soul to have control over the lives of the other humans. And a system like Communism already being rooted in the base human emotion of envy just brings out the worst in already flawed people by concentrating power on a few and forcibly rendering the rest powerless by reducing them to the lowest common denominator.  

 

A wise people should understand whatever economic system you choose to follow you MUST be able to keep the power of your government in check. Liberty in any society is a zero sum commodity. The more the state has over you the less you have over yourself. That is one of the big reasons gun control is so ferociously contested here in the United States. If some future government of the US decided to start lining up citizens and shooting them, the citizens here shoot back.

[Gorgon]

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

[Guard Dog]

 

Health care is a service. It's not a right. However, it think it would be worth discussing a national plan that covers catastrophic illness and injury. If you need heart surgery your fellow citizens will cover you. If you need stitches then you pay for them yourself or you buy insurance. The costs of insurance will drop because now the big ticket expenses are out of their hands.

That's a start, but what do we do about those who can't afford the Stiches? Don't forget prevention... do you always want to wait until a lack of Stiches turned into a serious infection that needs immediate treatment? That just seems more... inefficient, assuming you are willing to cover poor people's life saving surgeries.

 

People are responsible for THEMSELVES! No one is owed anything from anyone else just because they are here breathing air. We do not owe them food, water, a place to sleep or healthcare. They are owed the opportunity to do what is required to have these things and then to DO the things to have them. People voluntarily help the less fortunate here all the time. It's called charity. I donated more than 20% of my after tax income to various charities last year alone. Citizens of the US donate to charitites more than most of the nations of Europe combined.

 

But that is something we choose to do. It's a different thing when the government put a gun to your head and tells you it is going to take the money you worked to earn and buy something that guy over there who didn't earn it. Every dollar someone receives without working for someone else worked for without receiving.

 

I am and have always been willing to give my life for my fellow citizens. But I will NOT live it for them!

[Gfted1]

People are responsible for THEMSELVES! No one is owed anything from anyone else just because they are here breathing air. We do not owe them food, water, a place to sleep or healthcare.

Right here is where you lost every single European poster.

[Guard Dog]

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

[injurai]

Perhaps I'm mistaken in saying feudalism. Because I don't mean it in the sense of European medival feudalisms, I mean in terms of Japan. It's very different when you dig down and look at the long chain of economic policies and reforms. Japan as a somewhat isolated nation with that unified late as cultural influence from outside began to set in ~400-600 CE. It's development as a frontier nation bears a lot of similarities to America. Just in the same way as once land was all divided, how the immediate halt of boom lead to new dynamics. It's not just those similarities but how they propagate out over centuries. Japan looked more like the Napoleonic era up until it reached the Sengoku period. Returning somewhat to form afterwards in the reunification. But this is all just draping to contextualize my contrast with these elements honestly being mixed up in the US system and seemingly coming ever more into the forefront.

 

So what, if companies insurance policy is merely collective bargaining? I'm not say that's bad. I am saying being part of a larger organization is a massive security blanket. People land those positions from working hard, and certainly have a good foot to start out on.

[Gorgon]

We have enough wealth to provide these things just to make society less turbulent. I guess it depends what you want to spend your money on. If a majority decides that government has those duties, health care, education and so on, well then it does.

[Gorgon]

 

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies. 

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

 

No I thought I could get in before the next post and then I had to get bread out of the oven.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Capitalism is the only economic system that allows for a semblance of democracy because of the distribution of ownership. Under socialism you could theoretically claim to be free, but since you have to work for the government, you're only free if you don't care about having a job and eating.

[Guard Dog]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

[Guard Dog]

 

 

mmm I 'm curious as to why you think colonies were established in the first place. Give me an example of colonization where the object was not to enrich the home culture or deny resources to competitors.

 

Capitalism isn't really an ideology despite efforts to the contrary. It is simply how the world works. Usually Capitalism is associated with mass production, the market economy, but these are just gradual, in the case of the industrial revolution monumental, changes to something that has always existed.

 

Getting Capitalism mixed up with values, because of the relative success and affluence of western Capitalist societies, is a mistake. At its core it is Gordon Gekko, the law of the jungle pure and simple. Those factors that reign in Capitalism and make societies stable aren't Capitalist. Taxation, redistribution, those are ingredients that go together with Capitalism to create modern societies.

Are you asking me? If so go back and read my last 5 or so posts. I'm not here defending capitalism as the end all be all way of doing business. At best it's just better than the alternatives.

is it really efficient enough to justify the suffering it causes? We're speaking globally, anything else wouldn't make sense...

 

When you have a better idea I'm willing to listen. But if that idea concentrates absolute political power in the hands of the few then it's a non-starter with me.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

That gets decided through the democratic process, at least in theory. The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

[Chilloutman]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

Its more way around, how much you are able to accept to be taken away from you by government and than redistributed

[injurai]

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

[Chilloutman]

 

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

 

I am on same page as Trump here, EU NATO members needs to raise military spending

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Not all of them surely. But some I guess. It comes down to this: how much of someone else work, sweat, labor, etc does someone who didn't do that work feel they are entitled to?

I see you agree that surplus extraction from the proletariat is bad, RED Dog.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

The main problem in the US is we don't have an equitable taxation system to afford the spending most people support.

 

The problem there is that we blow our taxes on establishing national and global security, while other nations don't have those spending concerns. Never mind we never actually recovered from 2008.

 

I don't see an alternative to establishing security. It's part of the problem for sure but still a relatively small part. The real whale are the entitlements, and healthcare in particular.

[Hurlshort]

Probably good to note that the health care problems in the US are a relatively new problem, and have been driven by numerous factors. It was a lot easier to say no one is entitled to health care in the US when it was relatively affordable. But it isn't anymore, which means we either need to find a way to drag those prices back down to a reasonable level, or figure out a better alternative. If we can do the former, I'm all for it, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. We do have a number of successful models to look at in other countries though.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I agree that we're going about the problem all wrong. I think establishing a commission to look at other countries' healthcare systems and their trade offs would be a good first step. Of course I still remember what happened to the Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction commission.

[Guard Dog]

@Ben

• Economics: Make employees the majority share holders of their respective companies? So the government (I assume) just comes in and says to the owner/investors/board of directors "this company isn't yours anymore. Oh, and all than money you've sunk into it? Sucks to be you huh?" What about employees who change jobs? Do they retain their shares and then get shares of their new company? It does not matter. I won't suffer a government that can just come in and take what belongs to one person/people and just keep it or give it to other person/people. How would I ever feel secure in my home and property after that? I do business from my home sometimes. 70% income Tax? Why would I go out and bust my a$$ working hard when I'm just going to lose it all in taxes? I sure as hell won't be starting any more businesses.
• Social: OK, more universities. And free too. sounds great. I can't wait to hear the faculty react when they hear they won't be getting paid because even with our tax burden today the primary costs of universities are paid by students and donators. Well the students won't be paying and the doners can't. The other downside to your 70% tax is no one will be able to afford to support things like charity and university donations because you're beggaring them with taxes. Ah yes, banning all religious symbols. Remember how I said every evil act begins with the twisted notion that one group of people should control how another lives? It's not enough you take their property, money, and freedom you have to crawl into their heads and that their very beliefs from them?

What you are hoping for sounds great. An egalitarian society of true equality and all you have to do is grab a gun (the government) and FORCE people to comply with it. Take their property. Take their money. Take their very sous. And of course the next step is kill the ones that refuse. And just like that no matter how good or enlightened your intentions were you just became Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc.

 

To quote the great Milton Friedman "A society that places equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will have a high degree of both"

[HoonDing]

"I am on same page as Trump here, EU NATO members needs to raise military spending"

 

its not Cuckrope starting wars all over the globe

[Gfted1]

Hey, lets be fair here. We only start wars if we want your resources or if we dont like you.

[Volourn]

"its not Cuckrope starting wars all over the globe"

 

They sure arte trying to star waRs with Russia and the US.

 

I mean the German leader basically stated clearly that the US is Europe's enemy. LMAO

Edited July 11, 2017 by Volourn

[Guard Dog]

LOL Yeah, That was a straw man, I didn't just knock him over... I shot him!

 

Anyway, on to your points.

 

Trotting out Paul Krugman carries no weight with me. His utter devotion to Keyensian economic theory is famous. And yes he even does have nobel prize (for what that's worth). And he's never done a thing outside of academia. No one has ever put him in charge of anything, he's never held an office. He's an academic. And yes he does advocate for taxes that i would describe as confiscatory. Although yes there were wealthy people in the US back then our top tax rate was in the 70-90% range. But there is a hell of a lot MORE wealthy Americans not that it isn't. But here is the funny thing. Once the government started cutting the income tax rate in the 1920's, revenue collected began to GROW:

 

 

Not only did revenue collected from taxes grow, the amount of taxes paid by the people whose taxes were cut increased:

 

 

And again in the 1960 the top rates reduced and again in the 1980's in both cases revenue collected by the government increased even though the tax rates when down. See for yourself: http://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/the-historical-lessons-lower-tax-rates-0

 

Why is this you ask? We have a consumer driven economy. Our economy grows when we invest and consume. If you take away our ability to do that by taking too much from us in taxes we buy less and we invest less. When we buy less business sells less. They buy less raw materials. Prices drop. It feeds on itself. If we have more of our money then we buy more and invest more and business expands and makes money. That means more money to buy and invest which makes even more. So even though the government is taxing at a lower rate it's making more in revenue because there is more income to tax. Unlike liberty, and contrary to what the disciples of John Maynard Keyens would have us believe money in a consumer economy is no zero sum. Krugman would have us believe there is a finite number of US dollars in existence and one person having more consequently means another has less. That is simply not true.

 

In the 1980s an economist named Arthur Laffer developed a model we call the Laffer Curve today. His theory became the conerstone of President Reagan's economic policy which cut the top tax rate from 70% to 50% in 1981 and again to 38% in 1986. In the time revenue collected by the government went from  $517B to $909B in seven years. Taxes go down revenue goes up: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp

 

I'll get to you other points in a few

[Guard Dog]

 

It's been that kind of day! Actually my thanks to Ben and the rest of you. So far it has been very entertaining!