Official E3 Thread (I forged the paperwork)

[Fenixp]

if we stopped and we took a look at the console exclusives and how much they have changed over the past 3 years, it would indeed be bigger than anything we've seen on pc in terms of graphics and performance. And it will only keep on because the tools are constanly improving.

You've not been playing games for very long, have you? :-P

 

It also means that Ubisoft didn't sacrifice the pc version for parity's sake but because the game engine was unstable. The game engine wasn't optimized for nVidia or amd cards so there was alot of issues, somehow confused people started blaming consoles or rather Ubusoft focusing more on consoles than pc, which wasn't true.

The way I remember it, people were primarily blaming Ubisoft for bull****ting them, and many graphical options were unlocked via fairly simple modding within days in Watch_Dogs. Naturally, only high end PCs could run the game with those enabled at the time.

 

Just look at how Dark Souls 3 performs on a 970gtx, and how it doesn't look or run as nearly as good as Bloodbourne does on a PS4.

Bloodborne performing well on PS4? Well that's a nice fairy tale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBAugV34Xwo Might have been improved in patches, but FROM software has always had performance issues with their games, on all platforms. Incidentally, even running stable 30 isn't what I'd call 'Performs good' any day. Dishonored 2'll run just fine @ 30 frames per second on fairly weak PC hardware.

[SonicMage117]

You've not been playing games for very long, have you? :-P

What makes you say that? Is it because I only mentioned one generation of console? Of course this has happened with every generation of console over time from their arrival the the end of their shelf-life, as I said before we saw Dreamcast running Soul Reaver with much better graphics than pc's high end gpu. But what is new is that developers have even more techniques and tricks than they did last generation and the generation before that. The extent now is even greater.

The way I remember it, people were primarily blaming Ubisoft for bull****ting them, and many graphical options were unlocked via fairly simple modding within days in Watch_Dogs. Naturally, only high end PCs could run the game with those enabled at the time.

 

That's the thing, it wasn't that Ubisoft "Lied", it was that the engine was unstable and they locked the settings. You can actully manually go in the pc version and enable all the settings that the pc E3 demo was runnng, they are actually in the game so it's more of a matter that you have to look for it. Or you can mod it to look better but not even today's mid high-end pc can't handle that at acceptable framerates - again this is because of bad optimization of the engine and coding so the assumptions of the gaming community bit them in the arse.

 

Bare in mind that this isn't defending Ubi, they did a horrible job, very much like they did with AC Unity. By making a new engine, they screwed up the game's fate. Dunia engine for Far Cry on the other hand, is an absolute masterpiece in optimization and graphically goes beyond Crytek's efforts. They just made bad decisions over the years when it comes to Watch Dogs and AC franchise.

Bloodborne performing well on PS4? Well that's a nice fairy tale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBAugV34Xwo Might have been improved in patches, but FROM software has always had performance issues with their games, on all platforms. Incidentally, even running stable 30 isn't what I'd call 'Performs good' any day. Dishonored 2'll run just fine @ 30 frames per second on fairly weak PC hardware.

Yes, it's a 2 year old video in which had the early development tools, drivers, etc. This what at the time when the XB1 and PS4 were not taken full advantage of. As I said before, fast forward to present day and it's a different thing altogether. The framerates have been fixed while the pc versions of Dark Souls still suffer.

 

But my point is from a low-end laptop gpu, that's still a lot better than when you're getting from a mid-range gpu and also, you're not mentioning that Bloodborne is much more graphically demanding. From Software "always" having bad optimization for their games isn't an excuse. If we keep using excuses to defend poor quality ports and optimization on pc as a platform then we will never see improvements for them.

 

But those are just a couple examples, I could go on naming as there are alot more ports that play better on console and less well on a pc with much better gpu and other hardware. Notably, it's amazing what we're getting from both the lower models of XB1/PS4. Those are proving to be mighty potatoes, just as Nintendo's Switch is proving to be by milking that nVidia Tegra.

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Mamoulian War]

 

I'd bet a million dollars that there will be very few games that run at actual 60fps/4k on xbx which aren't Stardew Valley equivalents graphics wise.

 

You need a 1080Ti/ Titan to do that reliably- and even then not that reliably on newer games- on PC, and the xbx's RX580 equivalent just plain and fundamental ain't in those cards' power class. Nor is it, to be fair, in their cost bracket either as a PC card nor as a whole system for xbx. It will inevitably be the same situation as last gen when people thought they were playing CoD Iteration in glorious 1080p but were actually playing it upscaled from somewhat less glorious 960x540.

 

Still, people should as always buy whatever suits themselves best, and for some the xbx will be a good fit. I personally wouldn't buy an xbx, but then I also wouldn't buy a 1080/Ti/Titan either.

Why do you think that? Just because it happened with PS4 and Xbox One models when they were aiming for 1080p and 60fps, doesn't mean that they will fail the Xbox One X. It certainly has the power to upscale any game from now and the future in 4k/60fps but most pc gamers tend to forget that the development tools and building softwares are evolving every month, hence the rapid updates. It's just another reason why optimization has and always be much better for console games this generation than on pc.

The game play for Destiny 2, Metro Exodus, Forza 7, Need For Speed and Assassins Creed: Origins were all running in 4k @60fps both in the trailers and in the playable demo booths. Point being that the coding for consoles is still more convenient than pc's as it has always been. I'm talking about this in the wrong forum though, I already know thay the majority of gamers here prefer pc over consoles, I just hope nobody takes this the wrong way as me saying that consoles are better than pc.

The coding is different, so are the optimization attributes, consoles are not pc and with good reason, even if they use pc parts. We are mid-generation so optimization is far better now. If you're talking about games in 3 years from now, then I guess I can see your point. By then, the PS5 and neXtBox will have made way.

Because it never ever happened before, that "vertical slice" trailer on E3 was completely different, from what we got shipped in the end

 

Marketers shove down your throat anything, because no one sued them for false advertising yet...

 

EDIT PS: Ubisoft always lies, because they can get away with it

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mamoulian War

[Mamoulian War]

And one more interesting thing from E3

 

 

So far confirmed only for X Box One.

[Fenixp]

What makes you say that? Is it because I only mentioned one generation of console? Of course this has happened with every generation of console over time from their arrival the the end of their shelf-life, as I said before we saw Dreamcast running Soul Reaver with much better graphics than pc's high end gpu. But what is new is that developers have even more techniques and tricks than they did last generation and the generation before that. The extent now is even greater.

Mentioning 2000 of all years...

Soul Reaver for Dreamcast was released in 2000 (3 months after the PC release, actually)

 

These are 2003 PC releases:

 

 

Aftermath of introduction of 3D acceleration is just one example of a time when computers have benefited greatly from ability for gradual upgrades.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Fenixp

[Katphood]

[SonicMage117]

Because it never ever happened before, that "vertical slice" trailer on E3 was completely different, from what we got shipped in the end

Marketers shove down your throat anything, because no one sued them for false advertising yet...

You're ignoring the fact that console optimization is continuing a good path while pc optimization is getting worse when it comes to AAA titles. It's easy to bring up irrelevant points from past downgrades or faulty engines but that doesn't forsake that which is being done by first party developers. While pc players can point and laugh at the cons of console gaming, console players are pointing and laughing at inferior points. I'm neutral here but I feel like these things should be said as members here are mainly pc gamers so there may be a bit of an unbalance.

 

And I think that what you mean is that nobody can sue them because they didn't say "This is the release build."so it's not false advertizment. It's more like a glorified tech demo. Also I don't think it has nothing to do with marketing, it's more of how stupid Ubisoft was to dig their own hole at that time. Now though, they've redeemed theirselves pretty well even with the failure that was AC Unity, they re-did the who game of AC Unity a couple months after being released, issuing a huge update that was over 40gb, if I remember correctly.

 

That said, PC has had plenty of downgrades from other AAA games over the years but nobody likes to talk about that

 

https://youtu.be/mmSmkBu4Xxg

 

Hell man, even Witcher 3 has had downgrades.

 

https://youtu.be/c6ZU6yEThU8

 

But I guess that's not false advertizement to anyone because it's not Ubisoft. At least Ubisoft keep the options in the game so that you can unlock it to pkay the game exactly like the E3 demo looked.

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Mamoulian War]

And you ignoring the fact, posted by Zoraptor, that optimalization is not magic word, which can turn Toyota GT 86 into Porsche 911 GT...

 

Same as you cannot optimalize sub-par GPU into elite GPU, which alone costs double the price of whole console...

 

And same with balloons. You can't inflate them "ad infinitum", sooner or later they pop.

 

 

Edit: and you probably missed it, but there was a ****storm on the internet about Witcher 3 and subpar visual fidelity for AMD GPU owners compared to trailers, which were all run on Nvidia GPUs and used some patented technologies not available to AMD.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mamoulian War

[SonicMage117]

That's not a fact, just because pc has poor optimization, that doesn't automatically void the truth that optimization can do wonders.

 

Bad optimization can literally kill a system or a car, good optimization can let you squeeze 200% the performance out of your hardware. And I'm not talking about tweaking the hardware with overclocking but just straight up software development tools through coding. Optimization is everything, hardware is secondary, without optimization your hardware can overheat, or might not even turn on.

 

True, you can't turn a Toyota GT into a Porsche but you can always modify that Toyota to beat that stock Porshe and that's the affect of greater optimization.

 

Even John Carmack once said "For the same given paper spec, a console will deliver 2x's the performance of a pc, as a pc will deliver 2x's the performance of a mobile part.

 

Source:

https://mobile.twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/436012673243693056?lang=en

[Katphood]

This totally isn't a Attack on Titan clone...

 

[Mamoulian War]

That's not a fact, just because pc has poor optimization, that doesn't automatically void the truth that optimization can do wonders.

Bad optimization can literally kill a system or a car, good optimization can let you squeeze 200% the performance out of your hardware. And I'm not talking about tweaking the hardware with overclocking but just straight up software development tools through coding. Optimization is everything, hardware is secondary, without optimization your hardware can overheat, or might not even turn on.

True, you can't turn a Toyota GT into a Porsche but you can always modify that Toyota to beat that stock Porshe and that's the affect of greater optimization.

Even John Carmack once said "For the same given paper spec, a console will deliver 2x's the performance of a pc, as a pc will deliver 2x's the performance of a mobile part.

Source:https://mobile.twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/436012673243693056?lang=en

I am sorry, but It is a fact. As I said optimization is not a magic. At some point you always hit a bottleneck, which you cannot overcome, wihout further modification.

 

And that's where we come to the point, where we should point out that, modification is not equivalent of optimization. On optimization, you spent resources in man-hours. In modification, you have to pool into the project other resources as well. Which in the end means, that modified Toyota GT86 which is on par to Porsche 911 GT will end up costing much more than stock 911.

 

Which is not the case of XOX.

 

Aaand native 4K performance capable PC GPUs are more than 2x powerfull compared to XOX GPU. That's why you can see seamless performance in 4K only with Quad SLI Titans and i7 or similar configurations...

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mamoulian War

[Bartimaeus]

It was amusing to hear Bungie immediately say that Destiny 2 will only be 30FPS on Xbox One X. A supposedly competitive first person shooter...at 30FPS. Hm, okay, Bungie.

[SonicMage117]

I am sorry, but It is a fact. As I said optimization is not a magic. At some point you always hit a bottleneck, which you cannot overcome, wihout further modification.

 

Downplaying the worth of optimization by saying "Optimization literally is not magic" is a silly thing. I'm afraid the fact remains the same, good optimization lets you squeeze out 200% more performance out of a console's hardware.

And that's where we come to the point, where we should point out that, modification is not equivalent of optimization. On optimization, you spent resources in man-hours. In modification, you have to pool into the project other resources as well. Which in the end means, that modified Toyota GT86 which is on par to Porsche 911 GT will end up costing much more than stock 911.

 

So in other words, the car analogy wasn't a very valid one. I mean, it's not like you can tweak a car's speed reverse engineering the programming of your XM radio's software. I mean, if we're going to get all the way technical here than the car analogy was a bad comparison to optimization of pc vs console.

 

The developer toolkits and console software don't cost anything but they are doing real upgrades to the console.

Which is not the case of XOX.

Aaand native 4K performance capable PC GPUs are more than 2x powerfull compared to XOX GPU. That's why you can see seamless performance in 4K only with Quad SLI Titans and i7 or similar configurations...

PC games are never nor have ever been optimized to take advantage of Quad SLi Titans because they are not the average of the pc gaming community. If they were, we'd be seeing alot more graphically intensive games. The standard is a 970gtx and an i5 right now, some games are optimized for more cpu usage, some games are optimized for more gpu usage. Any developer will tell you that in pc gaming, it's either one or the other and that's yet another thing that seperates pc's ways from consoles. Since the memory is unified on the XB1/PS4, the cpu and gpu recieve equal treatment per instructions so the usage is balanced evenly throughout. That's the magic of console optimization that pc does not have.

 

I don't think that Microsoft is going to release a new console that won't be able to do 4K 60fps (we've already seen it do 4k 60fps), after they lost sales to PS4 for not having a console that could do 1080p 60fps at launch? The thing about technology is that sometimes things don't make sense, like John Carmack said, not everything on paper is as.

 

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2017-forza-7-revealed-runs-at-native-4k60fps-on/1100-6450745/

 

Again, the balance of cpu and gpu usage is totally different on a console than it is on a pc. The unified structure is the magic of optimization which the pc will never be able to achieve.

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[SonicMage117]

It was amusing to hear Bungie immediately say that Destiny 2 will only be 30FPS on Xbox One X. A supposedly competitive first person shooter...at 30FPS. Hm, okay, Bungie.

The sad thing is that it doesn't have to do with the Xbox One X not being able to handle it, but being on an even playing field with the other consoles. Sad but also wise on theor part, to avoid butthurt from owners of the other 3 consoles it eill be on.

 

Source:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2017/06/13/destiny-2-will-run-at-30-fps-on-xbox-one-x/

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Keyrock]

It was amusing to hear Bungie immediately say that Destiny 2 will only be 30FPS on Xbox One X. A supposedly competitive first person shooter...at 30FPS. Hm, okay, Bungie.

Not really my type of game, so I don't care either way, but the scuttlebutt seems to be that Destiny 2 very much got overshadowed by Anthem.

[Mamoulian War]

Ok Sonic. Looks like you do not understand the math in this stuff, And optimization even the best programmer would touch it, will not overcome the limit of the GPU...

 

Here you can check little bit about real info of the XOX GPU:

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/2977/xbox-one-x-gpu

 

I recommend to read it all and compare it to other GPUs on the list. And note this sentence, which is bolded in the article:

 

"We recommend the AMD Xbox One X GPU for gaming with highest details at resolutions up to, and including, 1920x1080."

 

Which, in other word means no native, but upscaled 4K...

 

You can optimize the software to run faster, but the power of CPU and GPU has physical limits.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Mamoulian War

[Majek]

 

It was amusing to hear Bungie immediately say that Destiny 2 will only be 30FPS on Xbox One X. A supposedly competitive first person shooter...at 30FPS. Hm, okay, Bungie.

Not really my type of game, so I don't care either way, but the scuttlebutt seems to be that Destiny 2 very much got overshadowed by Anthem.

 

Really? Because Anthem looked liked wasted resources to me.

 

 

And Sony didn't even show everything they could if others had been more impressive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eirObauHR94#t=10m25s

Edited June 15, 2017 by Majek

[Wrath of Dagon]

So we know AC won't run at true 4K on XOX, but uses something called "checkerboarding" which I gather is different from just upscaling. http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/assassins-creed-origins-wont-run-at-native-4k-on-xbox-one-x-after-all-but-it-still-looks-fantastic/ A lot of the so-called 4K games will use that or "dynamic resolution": http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/when-you-see-the-4k-ultra-hd-logo-on-the-box-of-an-xbox-one-game-it-may-not-mean-its-a-native-4k-title/

 

I thought they said Forza 7 though is true 4K 60 fps, but I could be wrong.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[SonicMage117]

So we know AC won't run at true 4K on XOX, but uses something called "checkerboarding" which I gather is different from just upscaling. http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/assassins-creed-origins-wont-run-at-native-4k-on-xbox-one-x-after-all-but-it-still-looks-fantastic/ A lot of the so-called 4K games will use that or "dynamic resolution": http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/when-you-see-the-4k-ultra-hd-logo-on-the-box-of-an-xbox-one-game-it-may-not-mean-its-a-native-4k-title/I thought they said Forza 7 though is true 4K 60 fps, but I could be wrong.

I already posted the link for Forza.

 

Forza 7 will be native 4k at 60fps, as I said before, at the beginning its mainly first party games that will run at true 60fps and actual 4K resolution. Mainly because in-house studios have the best toolkits before everyone else. If we look at games like Forza, which is much more demanding than AC Origins, then we know that this is true. Same thing goes for PS4 and why their exclusives look and run better than multi-plats.

 

Now wait 2 or 3 years and you'll see these "so called" 4K resolution third party games actually become native 4k resolution games because of more experience with the hardware and toolkits and on top of that, they'll look twice as good (this is what always happens when devs get more experienced with the console).

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Fenixp]

Ok Sonic. Looks like you do not understand the math in this stuff, And optimization even the best programmer would touch it, will not overcome the limit of the GPU...

He does have a point, when your game is so optimized that you only have to render 4 pixels of environment that aren't covered by HUD, oversized weapon, black borders of 5 degrees FOV, it'll run on pretty much anything

 

(Edit: It's also rendered in cinematic 24 frames per second, naturally)

Edited June 15, 2017 by Fenixp

[SonicMage117]

 

Ok Sonic. Looks like you do not understand the math in this stuff, And optimization even the best programmer would touch it, will not overcome the limit of the GPU...

He does have a point, when your game is so optimized that you only have to render 4 pixels of environment that aren't covered by HUD, oversized weapon, black borders of 5 degrees FOV, it'll run on pretty much anything(Edit: It's also rendered in cinematic 24 frames per second, naturally)

Where's the hud? Where's the black bars? Where's the fog? Where's the smoke and mirrors?

 

https://youtu.be/ts2am8WRBXQ

 

 

And why does this year old console game have better texture work and animation than anything we've seen on pc lately? Why does Digital Foundry call it a technical masterpiece?

 

Oh wait, you're talking about Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on pc... nvm, I get the joke now.

Edited June 15, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Keyrock]

Dear lord, I should have never mentioned the X Box One X. I didn't realize it would send someone into full on zealot mode. I apologize to everyone here.

[Mamoulian War]

So we know AC won't run at true 4K on XOX, but uses something called "checkerboarding" which I gather is different from just upscaling. http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/assassins-creed-origins-wont-run-at-native-4k-on-xbox-one-x-after-all-but-it-still-looks-fantastic/ A lot of the so-called 4K games will use that or "dynamic resolution": http://www.vg247.com/2017/06/14/when-you-see-the-4k-ultra-hd-logo-on-the-box-of-an-xbox-one-game-it-may-not-mean-its-a-native-4k-title/I thought they said Forza 7 though is true 4K 60 fps, but I could be wrong.

Well checkeboarding or dynamic resolution is another way how to "cheat" the human eye. Same as upscaling. Human eye is prone to fall for many illusions. That's why people like Houdini or David Copperfield were so successful *shrugs*

 

I have heard similar stories how "our game will be running native full HD at 1080p" when we had PS3 vs XBox360 war, there was also tons of hype, but as soon as these games were released people testing these games found tons of different ways' how they cheated the 1080p resolution. The most notable was drop to 30 FPS, sometimes even lower.

 

Being sceptical is in place IMO :D

[Mamoulian War]

Dear lord, I should have never mentioned the X Box One X. I didn't realize it would send someone into full on zealot mode. I apologize to everyone here.

I am sorry, I just shut up now.

 

I am just sad, that I have not started my career in Marketing, because now I experienced first hand, that hype can overcome not only reason and sanity, but newtonian physics as well *shrugs*

 

The choice to pursue my career in programming cost me lot of money :'(

[mkreku]

Welp, that's my interest in gaming resurrected!

 

http://wccftech.com/metro-exodus-massive-replayability/

 

Omg, it's almost like a Stalker reborn!