Tidefall vs Blade of the Endless Paths on Fighter

[Livegood118]

Hi all,

 

Im trying to work out what's more optimal on a 2H Fighter – BotEP vs Tidefall.

 

Set-up and math is as follows:

 

Recovery Mods:

 

Tidefall: (1.15 (Durgan) *1.15 (Gloves of Swift Action) *1.25 (Sanguine Plate Frenzy)) - 1)  + 0.15 (Durgan Armour) +0.2 (Armoured Grace) = .65 -.5 (NDW Penalty) -.15 (Armour Penalty) = 0 recovery factor

 

BotEP: 1.15*1.15*1.25*1.2 = .98 -.5 -.15 = 0.33 recovery factor

 

Attack Speed

 

17 Dex

 

Tidefall

30/1.21 = 25 Attack Duration

25/1.2 * max(0, 1 - 2*0)

25/1.2 = 21 recovery frames

+5 frames

Total attack time = 51 frames

 

BotEP

25 Attack Duration

25/1.2 *0.33 = 7

+5 frames

Total Attack Time = 37 frames

 

Damage

 

22 Might (inc. Frenzy from Sanguine Plate)

vs 16 DR

 

Damage Bonus: 15% (2H Style) + 20% (Savage Attack) + 15% (Apprentice Sneak) + 10% (Weapon Mastery) + 15% (Weapon Specialisation) + 36% (Might) + 45% (Superb) = 156%

 

Base dmg for both = 14 – 20

With Confident Aim = 17 – 20

17 – 20 * 2.56 = 43.52 – 51, AVG = 47 dmg

 

47 vs 16 = 31 (Physical Damage)

12 vs 4 = 8 (Elemental Lash)

12*1.36 = 16  (Wounding Lash)

+5 damage for BotEP 

 

TF = 31 + 8 + 16 = 55 dmg per hit

EP = 31 + 8 + 5 = 44 dmg per hit

 

Total Damage in same amount of time spent attacking vs 16 DR

 

VS 8 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 65 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 54 dmg

VS 16 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 55 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 44 dmg

VS 28 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 40 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 29 dmg

VS 36 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 30 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 19 dmg

 

VS 8 DR

 

TF = 65 dmg * 37 = 2405

EP = 54 dmg * 51 = 2754

 

VS 16 DR

 

TF = 55 dmg * 37 = 2035

EP = 44 dmg * 51 = 2244

 

VS 28 DR

 

TF = 40 dmg * 37 = 1480 dmg

EP = 29 dmg * 51 = 1479 dmg

(wow I didn't mean for this to work out this evenly)

 

VS 36 DR

 

TF = 30 dmg * 37 = 1110 dmg

EP = 19 dmg * 51 = 969 dmg

 

Conclusions

 

– Because of wounding on Tidefall it naturally does a lot better against high DR targets

– I'm not sure how to factor in the "Delay" in Tidefall's DPS as a result of INT. 

– With a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion potion Tidefall will attack exactly as fast as BotEP without the potion

– BotEP = .73 recovery factor with DaoM potion, meaning you would be able to use Vulnerable attack with no penalty

– In practice, Tidefall's different damage types will come in to play in it's favour

– Tidefall has draining, which is nice

– I feel like in practice the damage of both is likely to be much closer together as you might get like 25 hits off in an ordinary fight

– I still can't decide!!!!! Maybe with much higher might Tidefall is a better choice e.g. that would synergise better with wounding

[Livegood118]

Also I haven't considered to what extent graze or Crits affect the math.

 

Base damage for the two of them is the same, so presumably the one that hits more often would benefit more from crits, though it's not a lot of damage.

 

I'm not sure how crit/graze interacts with wounding on tidefall. If all a crit does is extend its duration that would lower dps, but if it increases overall damage then that would bring it back up again. Of course woundings damage would increase naturally with higher initial damage.

[Boeroer]

Tidefall comes a lot earlier than the BotEP. That's one of the reasons I usually favour Tidefall over the Blade. The other is the two damage types.

Crits are good for wounding - like you said it's based on the initial damage. This becomes even more important if you get durgan steel. The more dmg mods you add the better for Tidefall - it's a lash after all - while the +5 flat damage of the Blade via DR bypass don't get "buffed" by anything.

 

Marking is a very special enchantment. So I like to give the Blade to somebody who can somwhow use this enchantment. Like a damage-oriented paladin with Coordinated Attacks for example. Good damage and great single ally ACC support at the same time.

 

And last but not least: the attack animation of estocs is a bit boring...

 

But what about a third option: Hours of St. Rumbalt? It has two damage types, it causes prone on crit, it is annihilating (= +50% additional damage on crit). And it also comes quite early. 

This is the great sword I use most of the time. Fighter's high ACC, combined with Disciplined Barrage leads to a lot of prone-crits with huge damage. CC is much more effective than pure dps in my opinion - and when it's paired with annihilation it's even better. Also works great with high INT. I like high INT on fighters. If you start with a Knockdown then usually the enemy won't get up again.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

Hmm there's quite a lot to be said for action denial (prone). On Rumbalt annihilating with Fighter's Confident Aim would lead to between 8.5 – 10 extra damage, meaning after Durganisation you could expect a crit to do 22.6 – 26 extra damage vs 14 – 16 without annihilation, not taking in to account the corresponding boost this would also give to your lash.

 

If something isn't attacking you, then you're not getting interrupted by it (which, let's face it, is going to happen on a 2H char on POTD), thereby helping to increase your damage output and keeping you safer.

 

Attack speed buffs are very powerful. Let's say hypothetically the Fighter's Frenzy from Sanguine plate runs out:

 

Tidefall/Rumbalt Recovery factor = 1.15*1.15 - 1 = 0.332 - .15 (Sanguine plate with armoured recovery) - .5 (No DW penalty) = -0.318

Endless Paths Recovery factor = 1.15*1.15*1.2 - 1 = .59 - .15 - .5 = -0.06

 

This means that TF/R attacks every 64 frames and Endless Paths attacks every 52 frames, making EP approx 20% faster.

 

EP is approx 27.5% faster than TF/R when the Frenzy is active.

 

I think you're probably right though. You can't really account from numbers alone how useful a prone is.

[firkraag888]

What an excellent example of how difficult is it to find out simple facts like the amount of  damage weapons do.

 

No one would even be able to understand what is getting said on this thread (or want to put in the hours of research to understand it)

 

I love the combat system but it needs to be more transparent in terms of how it is implemented.

Edited April 2, 2017 by firkraag888

[Boeroer]

I actually like it that you can't tell which one is the best - even if you understood how the underlying mechanics work. All three have their uses.

 

But you are absolutely right - the mechanics around dmg bonuses vs. lashes, fixed damage DoTs like wounding and also attack speed are very, very obscure (amongst other stuff).

 

This could and should be explained better. My guess is that the designers don't *really* know how this stuff got implemented, too. Look at bashing: obviously Josh and friends didn't know why bashing itself takes away DPS instead of raising it in the most cases.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

Yeah, I actually quite like where most of the attack speed/damage mechanics end up, but not the complicated process of how they get there. There must be a way of simplifying things or conveying them to users without me having to sit down for half an hour working all of this out.

 

One thing's for sure though – the actual information conveyed to players in game is completely deficient and often wrong in a variety of circumstances.

 

If this was a bigger community we'd no doubt have utilities like Dark Soul's Mugenmonkey utility, but alas it is not. MaxQuest said in his thread that he may make a spreadsheet utility if he's got the time.

 

If I recall correctly Josh Sawyer has said that they always wanted to make the attack speed system more transparent for users but because of limitations in Unity 4 (the engine the game was built on) there wasn't a way of getting the engine to pick that information up. 

 

Pillars 2 is being developed on Unity 5, so they will be able to pick up this kind of information. But then they're going to make a whole load of other changes to the system, like rather than having DR penetration as a progressive system it'll be a breakpoint based system I think.

[Boeroer]

It would all be OK if they just explained their own mechanics correctly. Doesn't matter what Unity 4 can do and what not in my opinion. Just say that attack speed mods only work on recovery, that they are multiplicative when they stack and belong to the same group - and name that groups - and that they stack additively if they are from different groups. Give two or three examples and that's it. Can't be so difficult. Any underpaid intern who can read this forum could write it down so that OBS could place it in the game.

[Kaylon]

Frenzy gives 33% attack speed, not 25%...

 

Besides the dual damage type, Tidefall has also the advantage it can be enchanted to legendary.

 

Criticals favor Tidefall, while grazes favor BoEP... Considering the hit to crit conversion you can always add  0.2*0.5*90%=9%dmg or 0.2*0.5*120%=12%dmg (if you have the Doemenel bonus) to the total damage.

[Blades of Vanatar]

What an excellent example of how difficult is it to find out simple facts like the amount of damage weapons do.

 

No one would even be able to understand what is getting said on this thread (or want to put in the hours of research to understand it)

 

I love the combat system but it needs to be more transparent in terms of how it is implemented.

Imagine attempting the PnP version!

 

"Break out your TI-80s boys, were going to need an hour to figure out attack round 1!"

 

I can't wait for tabletop...

[Livegood118]

 

What an excellent example of how difficult is it to find out simple facts like the amount of damage weapons do.

 

No one would even be able to understand what is getting said on this thread (or want to put in the hours of research to understand it)

 

I love the combat system but it needs to be more transparent in terms of how it is implemented.

Imagine attempting the PnP version!

 

"Break out your TI-80s boys, were going to need an hour to figure out attack round 1!"

 

I can't wait for tabletop...

 

 

 

Made me lol hard.

 

Frenzy gives 33% attack speed, not 25%...

 

Besides the dual damage type, Tidefall has also the advantage it can be enchanted to legendary.

 

Criticals favor Tidefall, while grazes favor BoEP... Considering the hit to crit conversion you can always add  0.2*0.5*90%=9%dmg or 0.2*0.5*120%=12%dmg (if you have the Doemenel bonus) to the total damage.

 

ahh I got it mixed up with outlanders frenzy:

 

Assuming Durgan Steel+Gloves of Swift Action figures for attacking are then:

 

BOTP + Frenzy = 0.46 = 92% Reduction in Recovery, Full Cycle @ 17 Dex = 32 frames full attack/recovery/break

BOTP no frenzy = -0.06 = 12% increase in recovery = 58 frames full attack/recovery/break

TF/R + Frenzy = 0.1 = 20% Reduction in Recovery = 47 frames full attack/recovery/break

TF/R no Frenzy = -0.33 = 66% increase in recovery time = 65 frames full attack/recovery/break

 

With the correct figures for Frenzy this means that BOTP + Frenzy attacks a whopping 32% faster than TF/R with Frenzy.

 

To draw a line under this thread it seems to me that in terms of pure single target DPS BotEP is the better choice against most enemies in the game if:

 

– (a) You're wearing the gloves of Swift Action

– (b) You have an ability that increase your attack speed between 20%–35% that you've got regular access to. Harder to say with a 50% decreased recovery ability (DaoM, Time Parasite). Tidefall will attack faster but BP can then do vulnerable attack with no penalty.

– © Your might is in a "medium" range for melee DPS (e.g. between 20 – 26 with abilities/items) such that the wounding damage doesn't become a much larger component of overall damage

– (d) You don't need lots of DoTs enemies to proc certain things (e.g. synergy with ranger abilities)

– (e) Your intelligence is in a medium to high range

Edited April 2, 2017 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

I mean it's relatively easy to find out which does better damage without math (which might be prone to mistakes if you can't be sure about all the details): just attack a teammate and monitor how much health is left after a given timespan. Do it often enough and you can see which one is better in terms of damage. You can easily switch armors on your "crush test dummy" to simulate different DR and resistences, too. It just takes some time.

[MaxQuest]

One thing's for sure though – the actual information conveyed to players in game is completely deficient and often wrong in a variety of circumstances.

Amen.

 

If this was a bigger community we'd no doubt have utilities like Dark Soul's Mugenmonkey utility, but alas it is not. MaxQuest said in his thread that he may make a spreadsheet utility if he's got the time.

Naa, I gave up on trying to make that calculator in a spreadsheet.

 

Although a "bit" of javascript can do the trick) But shhhh... it's not finished yet.

 

 

If I recall correctly Josh Sawyer has said that they always wanted to make the attack speed system more transparent for users but because of limitations in Unity 4 (the engine the game was built on) there wasn't a way of getting the engine to pick that information up.

Tbh, I don't think it has to do with Unity. Obsidian could add attack and recovery durations to the character sheet, which would update on re-equip of items (armor, weapons, etc). Also it would be possible to update them when one of internal coefficients (like AttackSpeedMult) has changed, in order to reflect influence by temporary buffs/effects as well. I think it has more to do with the fact that speed system was simply changed a lot and that the values which they would have to show would result in additional confusion.

[Boeroer]

That - and that they don't know themselves how the stuff works.

 

Neat project MaxQuest. Also pleases the eye. Can't wait to see it finished! 

[JFutral]

I really think, since this is a "Every build can be a winner" kind of game, I'm not certain it makes much of a difference. I figure as long as things keep dying before I do, I'm good.

 

Joe

[Livegood118]

That java thing is so good - can't wait.

 

Run some ads on it, put damage calculations on it too and you'll definitely get your money's worth closer to when PoE 2 releases and everyone's playing the game again.

[Kaylon]

BoEP+Sanguine Plate would work well also on a barbarian with Blood Lust and Vulnerable Attack. If you open the fight with Heart of Fury it's very easy to trigger Blood Lust which coupled with frenzy puts you at nearly 0% recovery even with Vulnerable Attack.

[Boeroer]

Right - and it's also benefical to use Blood Thirst as well if you are not already at 0 recovery with Bloodlust (for example if you use a weapon without speed enchantment - like Drake's Bell with maximum DR penetration setup). After HoF you will have no recovery because you killed at least one enemy, you can follow up with Barbaric Blow which will most likely kill another enemy - again no recovery - and then hack away with auto attacks which are sped up via Bloodlust. Blood Thirst can close the gap between weapons with and without speed enchantment(s).

 

Of course - if you already have 0 recovery then taking Blood Thirst is nonsense in order to speed up your weapon attacks. But there might be reason you want to keep it: If you want to use attacks that are not related to your weapons - like Dragon Leap, Echoing Shout, spell binding gear or scrolls: those spell like abilites which don't use your weapons' enchantments also work with Blood Thirst. If you kill enemies with a Dragon Leap, a Jolting Touch or a Fireball or whatever you will also have 0 recovery - while the speed enchantment of your weapon will do nothing in this case. Casting some "spells" with 0 recovery in full plate is powerful.

[chickenhed]

@MaxQuest

 

I just wanted to chime in and tell you how fantastic that calculator looks, and how much I appreciate you taking the time to code it.

Edited April 5, 2017 by chickenhed

[MaxQuest]

Thanks)

[firkraag888]

Ok