Summoner Class

[Boeroer]

I'm pretty confident that one of the chanter's subclasses is a specialist for summons.

 

Maybe they'll even do a necromancer. Just look at some of the creepy phrases and invocations.

 

But when we look at Concelhaut and his apprentices, it may also be that wizards might get such a subclass. All of those wizards in the tower except the vithrak were doing stuff with vessels. Two of them clearly did things that one could name necromancy.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

Just a thought, but there are 5 (other than Kith) enemy types in PoE and 5 Casters. You could give each caster a type that they summon.

 

E.G.

 

Priest - Vessel would make the most sense, but that would tie necromancy to Priests.

Chanter - Spirit. Hey, their power source is called Spirit now.

Druid - Beast of course.

Wizard - Wilder?

Ciphers - Primordial?

 

The last two, I'm unsure about.

 

Those make sense to me, but others might feel differently. This way you could turn any of these classes into a summoner, and have a larger set of variety. You could even have subclasses or even Talents that emphasis summoning for each class. I don't know. Just a thought.

[Ganrich]

 

The Chant mechanic is a good inhibitor on clustering the field with summons,

It wasn't the cast in the early beta. Summons didn't disappear after combat so you just accumulated them until they were destroyed. I once ended up with might own little skeletons army.

True, but it didn't last long. I would look at where the game ended up moreso than it's beginnings. It's a better indication of where the developers heads are at.

[Boeroer]

If somebody can summon beasts, it's the ranger.

 

Druids already can summon certain spirits. Since they have also ties to primordials (form of the delemgan, summons oozes) I would say that that's the type of creature a druid should summon.

[Ganrich]

If somebody can summon beasts, it's the ranger.

 

Druids already can summon certain spirits. Since they have also ties to primordials (form of the delemgan, summons oozes) I would say that that's the type of creature a druid should summon.

I agree on Druids, but obviously there are some things changing in Deadfire, and this seems more logical. So, the suggestion is worth posting. If summons change then I say this is a logical step, but some may argue the details.

 

I would say Rangers dont summon a beast, but have a single one that stays with them. They aren't casters, and no one expects them to start being one in Deadfire. They will have a subclass that summons a spirit pet, though.

[Boeroer]

Sure it's worth posting.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Just a thought, but there are 5 (other than Kith) enemy types in PoE and 5 Casters. You could give each caster a type that they summon.

E.G.

Priest - Vessel would make the most sense, but that would tie necromancy to Priests.

Chanter - Spirit. Hey, their power source is called Spirit now.

Druid - Beast of course.

Wizard - Wilder?

Ciphers - Primordial?

The last two, I'm unsure about.

Those make sense to me, but others might feel differently. This way you could turn any of these classes into a summoner, and have a larger set of variety. You could even have subclasses or even Talents that emphasis summoning for each class. I don't know. Just a thought.

I disagree.

 

I think Chanter should stay the Summoner class. Not that it should be the only class that gets summons, but that it has the most of them. I think mechanically it works with chanting taking a long time to build up and summons generally being pretty powerful. And makes Chanters something besides a ****ty Sorcerer with 2/3rds the spells and some skills as the Pathfinder/D&D 3.X Bard was.

 

I get your complaint about not liking summons while liking Bards, but in PoE I think there's enough decent Invocations to have a Chanter who doesn't summon. I don't understand the people requesting a dedicated Summoner class, do you guys just want the super pet or another half caster?

[Ganrich]

@KaineParker - You are right, but if you play without summons you become a ****ty sorcerer that happens to never cast an invocation save on boss fights and PotD. This critique applies with summon builds too, but at least that is a unique attribute among the casters. The ramp up mechanic is still long, and Brisk Recitation is a bandaid that comes into its own a bit late into the game.

 

I think no matter which way you look at it the Chanter needs some changes, or at least more talents to specialize it. It gets 2 class specific talents, and they both add healing when you're chanting.

[morhilane]

Druids can summon blights (Eora version of elementals, classified as spirits) and insects in POE1.

 

Wilder (Ogre) and beasts (Drakes and wurms) are summoned by the Chanter in POE1 on top of their undead friends and a swamp spore (that's a primordial). It was really designed as the primary summoning class. I don't see that changing.

 

Wizard summons weapons, summons are not limited to creatures types...

 

Animated vessels fall into the animancy practice which is more a wizard or cipher thing than something priests would do.

[Yonjuro]

 As I understand it, the design goal of summons was to make them sufficiently weak that don't become the default for everyone.

 

 For example, in BG2, you could summon 5 magic resistant skeleton warriors for a very long time. They were also immune to mindflayer psionics making them a no brainer choice for the mindflayer areas where you could just buff them and wait for the level to be cleared. While there were a lot of ways to deal with mindflayers, doing just about anything else in those areas was harder than having the skeletons do it for you. Mages and clerics could both summon skeletons so you could have a lot of them per rest.   

 

 In PoE, summons are weaker (on purpose), they don't last as long (also on purpose),  and the chanter is the main summoner partially because it provides a time interval before the first summon and between summons. 

 

 So, here is a bad design for a summoner: give a wizard the chanter summoning invocations as spells (or similarly powered summoning spells)  and nothing else. Even though you get your first summon faster and can replenish them when they die (until you run out of spells), that would be a very weak character in PoE, right?

 

 What would be a good design for a summoner for PoE2:Deadfire that takes the design goals into consideration? That is, it needs to be fun to play and not so over the top powerful that you are shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't using them.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Yonjuro

[morhilane]

Thinking about a possible summoner focusing on beast, a Priest of Galawain sub-class would thematically fit for that one.

[Ganrich]

You know... Thinking on it, with the new Power Source (Spirits in the case of Chanters) being used as a level scaling mechanic, we could no longer have Phrases separated by levels. Combine that with the change to buffs and debuffs that will simplify them we could be looking at selecting phrases as we level, but having access to all of them from level one on. Or, perhaps, the phrases aren't lock by "spell" level, but require the appropriate Spirit level to obtain.

 

This could mean that since there would be no more high level chants Vs low level chants that Chants build at a standard rate at all levels.

 

I don't know. It might make both sides of this party more content with the Chanter.

[draego]

 As I understand it, the design goal of summons was to make them sufficiently weak that don't become the default for everyone.

 

 For example, in BG2, you could summon 5 magic resistant skeleton warriors for a very long time. They were also immune to mindflayer psionics making them a no brainer choice for the mindflayer areas where you could just buff them and wait for the level to be cleared. While there were a lot of ways to deal with mindflayers, doing just about anything else in those areas was harder than having the skeletons do it for you. Mages and clerics could both summon skeletons so you could have a lot of them per rest.   

 

 In PoE, summons are weaker (on purpose), they don't last as long (also on purpose),  and the chanter is the main summoner partially because it provides a time interval before the first summon and between summons. 

 

I think you hit on something here about summoning in POE because the Figurines were so great for this very reason. Summons that can distract npcs at beginning or during a fight are so powerful because it frees up you actual group to devastate the enemy in the mean time. The summons dont have to be particularly powerful themselves. So there has to be some balancing with using them.

Edited February 6, 2017 by jnb0364

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

@KaineParker - You are right, but if you play without summons you become a ****ty sorcerer that happens to never cast an invocation save on boss fights and PotD. This critique applies with summon builds too, but at least that is a unique attribute among the casters. The ramp up mechanic is still long, and Brisk Recitation is a bandaid that comes into its own a bit late into the game.

 

I think no matter which way you look at it the Chanter needs some changes, or at least more talents to specialize it. It gets 2 class specific talents, and they both add healing when you're chanting.

Ok then, it's been a while since I've played PoE and I never really used Kana much because the buildup took too long for me on PotD. The Chanter base class needs tweaks and non-summoning invocations that are good enough to compete with the summons, and probably tweaks to allow them to actually fire off invocations before the fights end. Hopefully we'll see that with the general tweaks in Deadfire.

[Heijoushin]

I also wasn't really blown away by the Chanter. Interesting idea, but not so fun to play. 

 

I think part of the problem was PoE's rule of "no magic/abilities outside of combat" (a rule that was quite controversial at the time if I recall correctly). Part of the fun of summoning is summoning monsters ahead of time, either for scouting purposes, or as part of your preparations for attacking an enemy position. In PoE, not only could you not summon ahead of time, you couldn't even summon immediately once you're in combat! 

 

I say, let the player summon outside of combat. Allow me to summon a wolf and scout ahead, or to have 3 skeletons lead the charge alongside my tank. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heijoushin

[JerekKruger]

Part of the fun of summoning is summoning monsters ahead of time, either for scouting purposes... 

 

Summoned monsters didn't remove fog of war in IE games so I don't think they could really be used for scouting.

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

Part of the fun of summoning is summoning monsters ahead of time, either for scouting purposes... 

 

Summoned monsters didn't remove fog of war in IE games so I don't think they could really be used for scouting.

 

 

Yeah, sanctuary and invisibly were for scouting.  The monsters were the bait you sent to the enemies after scouting.  ^^

[Ninjamestari]

Just a thought, but there are 5 (other than Kith) enemy types in PoE and 5 Casters. You could give each caster a type that they summon.

 

E.G.

 

Priest - Vessel would make the most sense, but that would tie necromancy to Priests.

Chanter - Spirit. Hey, their power source is called Spirit now.

Druid - Beast of course.

Wizard - Wilder?

Ciphers - Primordial?

 

The last two, I'm unsure about.

 

Those make sense to me, but others might feel differently. This way you could turn any of these classes into a summoner, and have a larger set of variety. You could even have subclasses or even Talents that emphasis summoning for each class. I don't know. Just a thought.

 

I would definitely like this approach, so thumbs up for that, but there still remains an argument for a more dedicated summoner class that could have its own mechanics that are designed around the concept of summoning, so you don't run into the problems you would run into if you just slap summoning on top of an existing class. For one, you could build a mechanism around how many summons you can have, something that could be extended with talents, summoner specific powers and maybe items to avoid the infinite summon spamming. Again, mechanically something akin to Diablo 2 Druids and Necromancers.

[Archaven]

Wouldn't elemental or golem be appropriate for wizards?

[Boeroer]

Elemental spirits (=blights) are for druids. But you are right that the wizard's phantoms seems to have something to do with the elements, too - because they cause shock damage and look like electrical beings.

 

Golems are vessels which seem to be the product of animancy. Look at Galvino's Workshop. As far as I can tell he's no wizard but "only" an animancer.

 

But I could easily imagine a wizard subclass specializing on creating golems, undead, animated weapons and stuff like that - like some of Concelhaut's apprentices did. A lot seems to be possible with magic. But I doubt OBS will do that because it would be a very special subclass and totally different from normal wizard. But who knows?

Edited February 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[SaruNi]

1. Isn't Animancy most closely connected with Ciphers? (According to the Wiki, Galvino is a Cipher.) Though the engineering aspect (and illegality) could relate it to Rogue, or the Lore aspect could bring us back to Chanter (forbidden lore, in this case). 

 

2. Ninjamestari - Chanter already has a lot of abilities that go well with summons: AoE buffs, debuffs, and heals, foe-only AoE... it's already been designed for use with summons. A Summoner subclass could add the ability to have two summons at once (including summons from items or other classes when multiclassing).

 

3. Ganrich - The difference between Chanter as Summoner and Chanter as bard-like could be made clearer through adding a bard-like subclass. This could focus on Chanters as "storytellers and repositories of ancient lore from myriad cultural traditions" who gain specific bonuses from learning stories or lore (reading or hearing, maybe turn what they're reading into a chant or just embody it or channel the spirit of it when they chant). Could be enemy type-specific or element-specific, or weapon-specific, maybe even the stories of unique items, etc. The focus on Lore and spirits could also clarify the connection between the Summoner Chanter (ancient lore) and bard-like Chanter.  

Edited February 6, 2017 by SaruNi

[Ganrich]

@SaruNi - they absolutely could do that with subclasses. Have a Summoner sublcass and have all summons cost one less Chant in order to cast them. While simultaneously they could do the same for other Invocations in a more Bard-like subclass. I really think the class needs tweaking regardless of what it's subclasses are though. The higher level phrases causing slower building of its resource vs a lower level sounds neat on paper, but doesn't work well in practice.

[Boeroer]

It does since Brisk Recitation was introduced. At least on PoTD the chanter is a hell of a class - even without Dragon Thrashed. At high levels tier 1 phrases are so fast that you build up resources in short time.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

It does since Brisk Recitation was introduced. At least on PoTD the chanter is a hell of a class - even without Dragon Thrashed. At high levels tier 1 phrases are so fast that you build up resources in short time.

Yeah, no class should be designed for PotD only. It's a bad design, and one of the few in PoE one. Which is why I have no issue calling it out. The class becomes less and less effective the lower the difficulty is set. Brisk Recitation is like putting duct tape on a leaky pipe. All it does is temporarily alleviate the leak, but you still see water on the floor after a while. The class needs another look to make it fun for everyone regardless of difficulty preferences. I waffle between Hard and PotD depending on play throughs. One of those makes Chanter less viable.

[SaruNi]

Or maybe:

 

Summoner/Invoker - chants are weaker / don't stack, but summons (or invocations in general) cost one less. Perhaps need to learn the stories / lore of the entities being summoned. (Just as the Black Jacket matches weapon specializations and items to particular enemies' weaknesses, or the monk subclass consumes drugs for bonuses... the under-utilized in-game mechanism for Chanter could be based around learning lore, and also encourage people to read more of the "flavor  text" and learn about the setting.) Maybe also special higher-level Summoner talents, like summons last for a short time after the end of combat, or a weak summons at the start of combat, etc.

 

Bard-like / Chant-focused: chants are stronger, invocations take longer or are weaker. Perhaps can compose new chants based on learning new lore and get more chant overlap time. (For spells, can use scrolls, and take advantage of bonuses. Maybe learns lore about fire and composes a chant which gives +fire damage and has a long linger time.) 

Edited February 6, 2017 by SaruNi