Split Health/Stamina

[desel]

Please consider carrying over the split health/stamina mechanic from POE.

 

Just because "some people" had a hard time understanding how it works is no reason to scrap it altogether. There surely should be enough time to come up with an absolutely idiot-proof way of communicating what that green bar represents or why characters aren't dying despite their portraits filling up with red.

 

If I heard that right during yesterdays Q&A even Josh is more in favour of the split health/stamina mechanic, so why not stick with it?

[FlintlockJazz]

Of course people are going to have issues with a new system for the first time.  Any new system will.  They can now either stick to a system that we have had experience with and should have less issues now with getting to grips with or they can introduce ANOTHER system that will just cause confusion again from the beginning.

[Sedrefilos]

thb a classic health-only system is not going to confuse anyone. Not the Pollars 1 veterans nor the newcomers. It's the standard system used in 99,9% of games. But I DO liked the Pillars 1 system. It tighted very well with the resting mechanic and all. I just hope, if they decide to drop it at the end, the new injuries and class resource systems they are heading for, worth it.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[morhilane]

I kinda like the new idea personally. I didn't mind the old one either, but in my POE1 playthrough with the injury system, I rested a lot more because of accumulated injuries than my health pool being too low.

 

They can even add an injury threshold where once a character get X amount of them, he/she dies.

[MaxQuest]

Just because "some people" had a hard time understanding how it works is no reason to scrap it altogether.

Agreed; it's not such a hard concept to grasp, in order to throw away the split mechanic.

But it seems that some players were indeed getting confused; e.g: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5, etc.

 

 

Anyway, lets think of possible pros and cons:

1. hp/endurance split pros over single hp pool:

- limited max healing. Fights have a clear end point and cannot be cheesed via endless tank and heal; or running around in circles once you get low, letting your passive regen to bring you back to full, and repeat that tactic over and over ad-infinitum.

- because of endurance-to-hp factor being different for different classes: for some of them you can use constitution as an alternative to traditional defenses.

 

2. single hp pool pros over hp/endurance split

- less confusing

- in PoE2: if you don't use empower often and have enough per-encounter healing, theoretically can stay longer without resting.

- single hp pool is very likely to be higher than current endurance pool, as such wounds gathering might be slower.

- anything else?

 

Although we need to know how gaining wounds in PoE2 will work. Will a character get wounded only once he falls unconscious, or even if just reaches low-hp. What if he is hit by an ability that deals high damage percent wise (comparing to his health pool)?.

Edited February 2, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Hemmer]

+1 for the split mechanic from POE.

 

People that were confused by it back then very likely have it figured out by now.

In the end it's just a matter of properly communicating how it works (and let's be honest here - it's anything but rocket science).

Edited February 2, 2017 by Hemmer

[Revan91]

How can people have problem understanding the health/stamina bars? It's pretty easy to figure out how it works.

 

To Josh and Obsidian: don't change something that works. You spent more than a year patching and balancing PoE and the end result in 3.0 was great. Let's start from there, instead of changing the health/stamina systems, the vancian casting and other things.

[Orillion]

I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

[dukeisaac]

I also liked the split health\endurance mechanic in POE1. Same thing for the per rest\encounter distribution of abilities. Then again, I'm willing to let the devs try something new if they feel its better for the game. Josh's description of the pacing for resting (injuries vs empowerment of abilities) seems interesting, although more complicated than the previous one...

 

In any case, I'm happy to see that he is open to changing it, depending on our feedback.

[Rolandur]

 

Agreed; it's not such a hard concept to grasp, in order to throw away the split mechanic.

But it seems that some players were indeed getting confused; e.g: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5, etc.

 

 

[Just pointing out and not singling you out] but most of these you linked, how these people worded their questions and statements, seems they simply making an opinion by playing dumb (450 hp and doesn't know how the E/H system works?) or they hastily made a post about their aggravation by not taking a minute to understand how it works. <- That happens with every game: player starts game, the game doesn't do what they expected and they immediately go to the internet to vent. I really don't think an entire system (which is dead simple) should be dropped only because of people with extreme road rage or ADHD.

[MaxQuest]

the game doesn't do what they expected

This means: not intuitively-friendly, hence confusing)

 

I really don't think an entire system (which is dead simple) should be dropped only because of people with extreme road rage or ADHD.

Agreed here. And tbh I really liked the hp/endurance split system.

 

If anything I'd like to hear Josh' thoughts on this subject. The thing is: we gather information piece by piece, while he sees the whole picture.

Maybe he had some solid reasons, and the confusing-part was just the first to come into his mind?

Edited February 2, 2017 by MaxQuest

[jones092201]

i struggle to see how this confused people and that's not meant as an insult. I really liked it. Can someone point out what it was that made the system confusing? 

[draego]

I like the system as well. Made for less rest spamming. 

[Lamppost in Winter]

Hang on, if there's only injuries and no (non-regenerating) health, is perma-death still in? Would be a shame if not. How would death work without Health - accumulation of injuries, perhaps?

Edit: should clarify I'm aware that they're just "experimenting" with injuries, not confirmed whether Health/Endurance is out yet

Edited February 2, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[L4wlight]

Seems to be the case:

[mumbogumshoe]

Are they planning to change it? Would be a shame. The system works really well. It keeps death meaningful, makes resting more important, but isn't as punishing as early levels on hardcore rules in Baldur's Gate where an unlucky roll on a fireball could disintegrate your entire party with no way to resurrect. I think they achieved exactly what they were trying to do with it and now that everyone is familiar with it, why would they give it up?

Edited February 2, 2017 by mumbogumshoe

[Rolandur]

Seems to be the case:

i.jpg

 

I wonder if this new Injury system would allow me to do something like Cragholdt Bluff at level ~7 on PotD (like I currently am now, but very slowly) or would Injuries stack up too fast in one battle making the encounter to be deemed too hard for the current character level. If so then wouldn't this push players to a move along a more linear path of gameplay?

 

And can we have more than 3 Injuries?

Will tougher (high level for instance) creatures have a greater chance of giving a character injury based on their level?

 

Edit: From another thread

 

I'm not opposed to learning more about the Injury system but I have a feeling it's going to take away just glancing (1 second) at your health bar and determining your next action (be it starting another full battle or using other methods, such as kiting) to now having to check out every Injury icon (several seconds maybe even a minute or two) making sure it's not a certain injury for a specific class, cross referencing how it'll interact with party makeup, etc.

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong though I love the current PoE1 Injury system because it adds verisimilitude and a sense of urgency and enforces resource management but having it purely dictate the health system... I just have to see it I guess.

 

I think that alone may have detrimental gameplay issues. We will see.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Rolandur

[Doppelschwert]

You can get injuries from scripted interactions, so having more than 3 should be possible.

After all, its not about the amount of injuries alone, but also about getting knocked out while having them.

[Strange_Trees]

I liked the health/stamina split for what it seemed to show from a lore perspective. That healing magic wasn't magically stitching wounds closed mid-combat, but rather keeping a combatant standing while they're bleeding profusely from multiple injuries that should have knocked them flat on their ass already.

 

I don't recall the exact details of what PoE2 will have, although I think it would simply replace the concept of dying at 0 health with dying at 3 injuries+knockout? If so, it's still similar in concept I think?

[Fluffle]

One more voice in favor of the old system. But hey there'll be a Beta where we can try out the new system. So before condemning the new system I'd like to try it out first. That said I DO like the split system in PoE1.

[L4wlight]

[Rolandur]

ii.jpg

 

Thank you this was the information I was missing! =)

 

Also, why doesn't he just do all question answering here? Awkward having to chase a dev across the internet when home is here. Are we too scary? lol

Edited February 3, 2017 by Rolandur

[eisenschwein]

They said they're still experimenting so fortunately nothing's set in stone just yet.

Would be pretty stupid though to throw a, imho perfectly working and quite innovative "gamified" representation of a character's vitality over board. Especially if it'd be for some people's lack of willingness to invest some time to understand and get the hang of things. There isn't anything hard or particularly difficult to understand about POE's health/endurance system to begin with.

I hope Sawyer's preference for the POE approach (which apparently he also proposed and pushed for) prevails in the end.

[Aotrs Commander]

Ho hum.

 

I thought the old system was really clever.

 

In a lot of ways, it worked better than per-rest resources as a method of determining whether or not a rest was required.

 

I am to vaguely understand there's some sort of injury system at lay instead (something like Dragon Age Origins, maybe?) Though I'm not sure that will not just encourage resting to get rid of injuries instead of because the health is low, but whatever, I guess...

 

Apparently not, looking at the link in the posts prior. *shrug*

Edited February 3, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[Lamppost in Winter]

Cheers, L4wlight. With death still in, I'm fine with either system, though the old one has more room for granularity.