The loss of Vancian casting?!

[Lamppost in Winter]

If the Empower system does just add a little oomph to spells without meaningfully changing them, I'd rather stick to the Vancian casting. As it stands, it sounds like Empower is basically a per-rest Accuracy/Damage buff spell, which we already have that presents more challenge in using; taking up a slot in your Grimoire and draining uses from whatever spell level it was. 

 

 

So, thinking about this a bit more. IF, and it's a big if, almost all spells are damage or debuff (MAYBE soft CCs like slow), and in order to disable (knockdown, stun, root, etc) you have to apply empower, then this system might work ok. That way the best spells (hard CC's) are limited by rest, and may stop too much repetitive spell casting.

Using Slicken as the example again. By itself, it doesn't knock down, it it slows the enemy and reduces something like dex and reflex. However, when Empowered, it has a knockdown added to it. Since Empowering stuff is limited per rest then you still have some tactics required in managing that resource. While simultaneously you are avoiding casters having a limited subset of things to do when they are tapped for spells.

Combine this with more enemy diversity, with different immunities and the like. You might swing this and still keep a decent tactical element. I asked Feargus about last night about enemies. Particularly, since we repeat from level one if they've added new monsters, and he said they have added new monsters, and that they have more types of reoccurring monsters. So we will have new ones, plus more Xaurip types, more beetle types, more Fampyr types, more blight types, etc.

 

 

I am liking this idea, though I can see it being a nightmare to implement since you're basically designing double the number of spells. Powerful effects still have to be conserved for tough fights, while Wizards/Priests/Druids still have plenty to do during an easier fight.

[Infinitron]

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Infinitron

[Ganrich]

If the Empower system does just add a little oomph to spells without meaningfully changing them, I'd rather stick to the Vancian casting. As it stands, it sounds like Empower is basically a per-rest Accuracy/Damage buff spell, which we already have that presents more challenge in using; taking up a slot in your Grimoire and draining uses from whatever spell level it was. 

 

 

 

 

So, thinking about this a bit more. IF, and it's a big if, almost all spells are damage or debuff (MAYBE soft CCs like slow), and in order to disable (knockdown, stun, root, etc) you have to apply empower, then this system might work ok. That way the best spells (hard CC's) are limited by rest, and may stop too much repetitive spell casting.

Using Slicken as the example again. By itself, it doesn't knock down, it it slows the enemy and reduces something like dex and reflex. However, when Empowered, it has a knockdown added to it. Since Empowering stuff is limited per rest then you still have some tactics required in managing that resource. While simultaneously you are avoiding casters having a limited subset of things to do when they are tapped for spells.

Combine this with more enemy diversity, with different immunities and the like. You might swing this and still keep a decent tactical element. I asked Feargus about last night about enemies. Particularly, since we repeat from level one if they've added new monsters, and he said they have added new monsters, and that they have more types of reoccurring monsters. So we will have new ones, plus more Xaurip types, more beetle types, more Fampyr types, more blight types, etc.

 

I am liking this idea, though I can see it being a nightmare to implement since you're basically designing double the number of spells. Powerful effects still have to be conserved for tough fights, while Wizards/Priests/Druids still have plenty to do during an easier fight.

It does sound daunting, but it is the only thing I can think of that won't lead to incredibly repetitive combat. If empower is just adding to accuracy or damage then it could minimize attributes, but I'd have to see the numbers to be sure. The more I think about it, the more I might prefer what I'm suggesting to Vancian, and that means (with my luck) it won't be this interesting.

[Lamppost in Winter]

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

I was kind of thinking of something similar; what if all spells just consumed the same, per-rest resource, with higher level spells taking more?

[Varana]

The problem with PoE1's pseudo-restriction of camping supplies is that it dresses up inconvenience and boring walking around through empty spaces as "resource management".

Running out of supplies didn't force you to think tactically and save your spells.

What forced you to save your spells, was the inconvenience of backtracking to the nearest inn or vendor. Except for a few special occasions, that was always possible.

Changing that to really restricting rest would heavily increase the possibility of playing yourself into a corner you can't get out of - and that's bad design, as well.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Varana

[tinysalamander]

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

I was kind of thinking of something similar; what if all spells just consumed the same, per-rest resource, with higher level spells taking more?

 

Wouldn’t that make it a mana system? And while I do prefer mana-based systems I haven’t really seen that many pro-mana people in D&D crowds outside of XPH lovers.

[Ganrich]

 

 

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

 

I was kind of thinking of something similar; what if all spells just consumed the same, per-rest resource, with higher level spells taking more?

 

Wouldn’t that make it a mana system? And while I do prefer mana-based systems I haven’t really seen that many pro-mana people in D&D crowds outside of XPH lovers.

IMHO it would definitely be a mana system, and without cold downs you still run into the issue of spamming your best spells with reckless abandon. The only difference is, if you want the REALLY good version of the spell, you are somewhat limited.

[Chairchucker]

Vancian casting blows chunks and I'm glad it's gone.

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

I was kind of thinking of something similar; what if all spells just consumed the same, per-rest resource, with higher level spells taking more?

 

Wouldn’t that make it a mana system? And while I do prefer mana-based systems I haven’t really seen that many pro-mana people in D&D crowds outside of XPH lovers.

 

Basically, just not regenerating like most modern mana systems. Just throwing ideas out there in any case, and I do like Ganrich's idea for Empower better.

 

As for spamming, Vancian allows you to spam (relatively speaking) anyway, just limited by the number of times you can cast a spell/level. This would just consolidate all of them into consuming one resource.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[Infinitron]

 

 

Possible Solution: Make the weakened per-encounter spells use the "Empower" resource too (in addition to their per-encounter limitation!), but far less of it. Noobs get to throw a decent amount of spells, grognards don't get the feeling that combat is an unlimited spamfest.

I was kind of thinking of something similar; what if all spells just consumed the same, per-rest resource, with higher level spells taking more?

 

Wouldn’t that make it a mana system? And while I do prefer mana-based systems I haven’t really seen that many pro-mana people in D&D crowds outside of XPH lovers.

 

Basically, just not regenerating like most modern mana systems. Just throwing ideas out there in any case, and I do like Ganrich's idea for Empower better.

 

As for spamming, Vancian allows you to spam (relatively speaking) anyway, just limited by the number of times you can cast a spell/level. This would just consolidate all of them into consuming one resource.

 

 

The point is that it doesn't allow you to spam everything you've got in one battle and then do it again in your next battle.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Infinitron

[algroth]

TBH I've never liked Vancian casting. It works in tabletop, but in game so far it's come down to spamming a sleep button. Oh no, Aloth ran out of spells again, better sleep in this dungeon surrounded by enemies even though it's the middle of the day. In all practicality it IS per encounter because you can just sleep between every fight, with a slight inconvenience - camping supplies/finding an inn is at most a bit irritating. It's not like dungeon enemies respawn, or at least I've never seen them do it. If I really need more spells I'll go through the irritating slog of retracing my steps, going to an inn, and finding my way back. The only thing encouraging to use less spells isn't strategy, it's annoyance.

This, exactly. I really like the changed being implemented here.

[L4wlight]

Some more information from Josh.

[Lamppost in Winter]

Some more information from Josh.

Edit: nevermind, think I read the post wrong

Edited February 2, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[morhilane]

 

Some more information from Josh.

 

 Huh. Is everyone going to have a Chants/Wounds/Focus thing they have to build up somehow? Sounds kind of annoying, and how many "build up this resource" mechanics could they have up their sleeve anyway?

 

That's not what I got from that answer. I read that as "everything is per-encounter or works like it did in POE1". Or if you prefer, stuff that was per-rest is now per-encounter and stuff that require resource build up remains unchanged.

[Ganrich]

Still not sold on it stopping people from using the same tactics over and over, but it's good to know more. It seems Empower is just a boost to the spells current effects (damage/duration/buff numbers/debuff numbers/etc). I still think it will lead to less tactical usage of abilities and spells, but always prepared to be surprised. We will see.

[morhilane]

Some more information from Josh.

One of these posts confirms that Wizard don't need to grimoire switch anymore or even need a grimoire equipped to use their spells.

 

I hope there is a limit to how many they can learn...

[Infinitron]

 

Some more information from Josh.

One of these posts confirms that Wizard don't need to grimoire switch anymore or even need a grimoire equipped to use their spells.

 

I hope there is a limit to how many they can learn...

 

 

Without grimoires you can only take spells from level ups, so that's a pretty definite limit.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Infinitron

[HoopleDoople]

Beyond nostalgia, I can't really come up with any good defense of the Vancian spell casting system in video games. It was just terrible for game balance because of how easy it was to abuse by frequent resting. The only way to actually make it balanced is strict resting limitations, but this is a poor solution because most players hate being forced to replay already cleared content. I know that when playing Pillars of Eternity I always have to be very careful to manage my casting frequency - resting too often to spam spells trivializes content while being too conservative with spell usage makes the caster classes too dull.

 

The per encounter casting with per rest empowerment sounds like a promising system, though it does have some potential pitfalls. Finding the right balance of total spells per encounter will definitely be tricky. It also might be worthwhile to experiment with casting cooldowns to allow for a higher maximum number of casts without trivializing shorter battles. I also suspect that spells will need to be more carefully balanced than in Pillars of Eternity in order to prevent one spell from being THE spell at each level. For example, Slicken is pretty overpowered but with 4+ total level 1 spell casts I'm never afraid to cast another level 1 spell that is useful at the moment. If level 1 spell casts were limited to 1 to 2 (albeit per encounter), I'd have a really hard time justifying an alternate cast unless the enemies were immune to prone.

Edited February 2, 2017 by HoopleDoople

[JerekKruger]

Without grimoires you can only take spells from level ups, so that's a pretty definite limit.

 

In particular, if there are some unique spells found in certain grimoires (like Shadowflame in WM1 say), that might mean the only way of ever having access to that spell is to use that grimoire. It's an interested idea I must say.

[morhilane]

 

 

Some more information from Josh.

One of these posts confirms that Wizard don't need to grimoire switch anymore or even need a grimoire equipped to use their spells.

 

I hope there is a limit to how many they can learn...

 

 

Without grimoires you can only take spells from level ups, so that's a pretty definite limit.

 

Misunderstood that part, I though they were all learned. That means level up spells are always known and you add to that the ones from the slotted grimoire (which have less spell than they did in POE1)­.

 

So technically, you want your grimoire to have spells that aren't known. I like that, you go around with the big book because you don't know these spells as much. It also means that multiclassed characters who doesn't use a grimoire can still cast a few spells, but a full Wizard will always have more under his/her shelves.

[Aotrs Commander]

Completly unrelated to the topic: everytime I see Aotrys Commander posting something, I read AndreaColombo.

God, I happen to think that it is possible to spend too much time reading these forums.

 

Well, that's a first, Usually it's just peope misreading (and spelling) "Aorts;" if I had a [unit of currency] for everytime someone writes "Aorts" not "Aotrs¹," I could have funded PoE2 myself (though it is a fascinating study of how human lingual pattern recognition works).

 

"AndreaColombo" is entirely new, though.

 

(Should I know who that is? I feel, from context, I should know who that is. I do not.)

 

 

 

¹It's pronouced "A -oat-ers," by-the-by, not that anyone will actually care.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[ShadySands]

Good riddance!

[Vaeliorin]

So you guys prefer spamming the same spells every encounter? With the vancian spell system you can't just spam the same spells because you run out of casts for that level, with this you will just do the same thing every time.

Forgive me if this is a repeat, but I've read about as much of this topic as I can stomach at the moment..

 

So it's okay if everyone else has to use the same abilities every encounter, but casters should be special?  Why?  Playing a fighter or rogue, in a decent system (D&D is not a decent system) should be just as interesting as playing a mage.

 

Honestly, all Vancian casting means to me is that I never cast anything until I come across a fight that I can't beat without casting something.  Which means outside of boss fights I almost never cast spells.  In PoE, I made lists of lootable camping supplies that I couldn't pick up because I was already at the limit, and yet I think I only went back for one once (and I didn't just backtrack to inns, and I never bought camping supplies.)

 

Personally, I'd prefer a system where all my characters are useful all the time, and aren't super useful (and generally OP) in one or two fights, and almost completely useless the rest of the time.

[SaruNi]

It could be that what used to be Vancian casting now relies exclusively on Empower, with maybe a per-encounter limit on top of that. This could end up being very similar to Vancian casting, except instead of a set number of spells from each spell level, you have per-rest "empower points" that can go towards spells of different levels. So you might be able to cast 1 level 5 spell or 5 level 1 spells, etc. 

[Enoch]

IMO, the primary check against "do the same thing every time" should be encounter design-- different encounters should offer different challenges that reward variations in your approach.  Resource availability has a role to play in helping that along (e.g., limit gimmick builds that spam certain potions endlessly), but I don't see that it necessarily has to include having the vast majority of the class-based abilities for 3 classes be per-day. 

 

I wonder if they're including area-of-effect as the thing that gets "Empowered" for some spells.  E.g., "basic" Blessing as single-target, but Empowered Blessing as AOE.