Politics 2016

[Zoraptor]

It is an Express article- if their articles are better than the Daily Mail or The Sun's it's mere coincidence. It's also about 2 weeks old as news- eg rather less sensationalist Independent article from 29 Nov. It's only resurfacing now because of the WaPo's 'anonymous source' article and Obama's investigation order.

 

If actually true that Russia is supporting Nazis in Germany it would be the highest form of highly ironic. Retro like August '39.

[Volourn]

"I love it, this is the logic of a Trump victim in action. Not Trump logic, because Trump logic is a finely crafted piece of manipulation in action, but the kind of logic that screams "someone come and make a chump of me".

 

Will a wall do anything? I guess, right? I mean, people are talking about a wall surely it must do something right? Is it worth building? I dunno, who knows? Nobody knows, right? So why don't we build that wall 'cuz it surely will do something right? Right?"

 

Cute.

 

 

 

Hacking and Elections: If Russia hacking and releasing emails is enough to get people to vote against current leaders in the West that is the failure on the West. Nobody has really depusted the factualness of the released emails... just butthurt they got released at all. If Merkel has nothing to hide any Russia 'hacking' should be irrelevant.

 

Trump isn't the enxt president because Russia did some hacking and released some emails. LMAO

Edited December 11, 2016 by Volourn

[licketysplit]

A wall is a great idea, given the U.S and Mexico are exchanging our two worst commodities - drugs and weapons. 

[BruceVC]

A wall is a great idea, given the U.S and Mexico are exchanging our two worst commodities - drugs and weapons. 

Guys come on.....lets be realistic about the validity of this wall

 

We dont want to stop all those hot Mexican women coming to the USA  

[Meshugger]

Funny thing is, "Putin did it" as an argument was a spectacular fail pre-election, why they think it will work now I don't know. Even if they did hack Podesta or the DNC instead of it being Podesta stupidly falling for phishings and Seth Rich it hardly matters, the substance of the leaks was not faked. The stuff that did the damage was stuff that actual democrats wrote, hardly matters whether it was Karl Rove, LoF, zombie Beria or a time traveller from the future trying to stop World War Hillary who leaked it. They lost because Hillary was rubbish, their plan was rubbish and to quote Powell: "hubris". If they'd have picked Bernie it would have been irrelevant.

 

The WP report is also based on 'an anonymous source', again. Everybody seems to be treating it as being an official release though. They'll then be surprised that 'fake news' citing 'anonymous sources' gains traction, for some reason.

 

The intelligence apparatus in one country working in detriment to the interests of another country, well i never!

 

Oby is much cuter than Merkel though.

[Elerond]

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact. 

As usual your insights are 100 %  accurate

 

What you describing is " post-truth   "  , its real and influenced many people in the USA to vote based on emotion and not rational thought. The good news is this disturbing trend should pass as civil society addresses this unexpected dynamic....remember its important people like us who believe in the objective facts continue to do this and not think " post truth " is the new reality of the world 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/15/post-truth-named-word-of-the-year-by-oxford-dictionaries

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/posttruth

[Meshugger]

Yes, how strange when the left loses it's intellectual power and cultural significance that the push of "post-truth" emerges by the very same butthurt leftists. Your lot is like the old people Bob Dylan sang about long ago.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUDdQS2UxA

 

That's what really happening, the logical end result of post-modern world and its response as it loses its grasp on its people. 

[BruceVC]

Yes, how strange when the left loses it's intellectual power and cultural significance that the push of "post-truth" emerges by the very same butthurt leftists. Your lot is like the old people Bob Dylan sang about long ago.

 

 

That's what really happening, the logical end result of post-modern world and its response as it loses its grasp on its people. 

You misunderstand me young grasshopper, I dont think I was wrong.....the ideological objective of  a world where we dont practice bigotry and respect human rights can never be wrong?

 

"Post Truth " is more for you guys to understand how you have been manipulated ....consider this a form of catharsis and introspection ...its constructive 

[redneckdevil]

 

 

Yes, how strange when the left loses it's intellectual power and cultural significance that the push of "post-truth" emerges by the very same butthurt leftists. Your lot is like the old people Bob Dylan sang about long ago.

 

 

That's what really happening, the logical end result of post-modern world and its response as it loses its grasp on its people.

You misunderstand me young grasshopper, I dont think I was wrong.....the ideological objective of a world where we dont practice bigotry and respect human rights can never be wrong?

 

"Post Truth " is more for you guys to understand how you have been manipulated ....consider this a form of catharsis and introspection ...its constructive

Your half right. All parties are being manipulated, democrates/republicans/independent. As u stated I agree, but I also say that it apples to your side as well

Maybe democrates should take a step back as well and instead of pointing fingers and blame at the other side, do that but also take a long hard look at your side as well. One thing that struck me so far after this election is that from what I've seen so far is that whites and Latinos are the ones more pissed off about the election. Whites<-----Latinos<---------------------------<-Blacks. Basically from every black person ive talked to, say they disappointed but really don't care because things aren't gonna change. That it didn't change when Obama was in office and he didn't do anything to better their lives. Latinos I've talked to only seem somewhat concern if they will be deported or family members deported or accidentally be accused of deportation. White people seem to be the most vocal. What does that tell you? The Democratic Party has been shouting rights and equality, but for the most part just seems like empty words just to have a bigger govt that controls more and higher taxes. That seems to be the primary focus thru actions then the equality/rights. Hell the immigration is more in lines with cheaper labor than actual rights.

Granted thankfully obama got the gay marriage passed, but then we point out that bush jr did more for Africa than any president including Obama. But that's about it.

Rights/equality that democrates preach is for special treatment, not equality for the most part just to get votes and cheap labor so that govt can be massive. Republicans are sadly for keeping rights where they already are because they want lesser govt but bigger military.

That's what it boils down to imho that both ideas need to look and reflect. Democrates more for bigger govt (bad) but preaching rights/equality (good) but focus more on big govt than the rights/equality unless it's for cheaper labor.

I think that's why a lot of people are against the EU because while what they overall doing is good, the immigration is shown as a "right moral" thing to do but the overall goal it looks like is more for cheaper labor.

I think it's past time that both parties need to evolve and cast off certain idealology while strengthening and taking on others. With this new age on us, they need to get with the times and change as well instead of being dragged down with outdated and/or wrong idealogy.

Edited December 11, 2016 by redneckdevil

[Meshugger]

 

Yes, how strange when the left loses it's intellectual power and cultural significance that the push of "post-truth" emerges by the very same butthurt leftists. Your lot is like the old people Bob Dylan sang about long ago.

 

 

That's what really happening, the logical end result of post-modern world and its response as it loses its grasp on its people. 

You misunderstand me young grasshopper, I dont think I was wrong.....the ideological objective of  a world where we dont practice bigotry and respect human rights can never be wrong?

 

"Post Truth " is more for you guys to understand how you have been manipulated ....consider this a form of catharsis and introspection ...its constructive 

 

 

Nah, post-truth implies that we lived in a world of truth and facts until Brexit. But keep on rolling and you get the expected answer:

 

[BrotherFerg]

It is a very interesting time. I thought the right would have sought to inch toward the middle and elect someone like Rubio (if you can consider that middleish). Instead the right has shifted to a more populist platform. I think that many left wing workers have had enough of the Democrats only providing lip service to their gripes with globalization and sought someone that actually addressed outsourcing and jumped on that ship, however unstable it is. I want to say that Trump won't deliver on his harsh critique of globalization, but he's proven me wrong time and time again.

 

I am concerned about a new world order that could arise, I think a divided Europe is not good. But I could be wrong. As an American I tend to think that if the EU breaks down that European powers will not cooperate considerably and as time goes on no longer be concerned with the welfare of other Western European countries, especially those on the border with Russia.

 

More than not I favor globalization and economic integration as it tends to bring us closer together and war less likely however as we've seen with Greece it does have its risks. It's said that over three hundred million people in developing countries have risen out of poverty because of open economies. Some of the manufacturing jobs that disappeared in the US didn't disappear at all, they just were replaced by automation (I've seen it in my own city). Many people talk like America is a mere shadow of what it once was, but it's not true. Manufacturing has been growing and it even grew during the Great Recession. We like to compare our growth with China, but it would be very rare for a developed country to grow at 6-9% annually. Bill Clinton had a high approval rating when he left office, but was still replaced by Republicans controlling all branches (I think). Sometimes we just need a change.

 

Things I think we need to focus on:

 

1. Bringing down the total debt. The deficit has been falling since 2011, but spiked again this year. Recessions can be bad as we have experienced, but they are much worse when you are deep in debt and have little resources (or public support) to plug the holes. Another recession will come, probably within the next 10 years and we are almost 20 trillion in debt. I think soon after Trump takes office it will be time to raise the debt ceiling, so hopefully we can come to a solution that is fair for all Americans.

 

2. Stagnating incomes. The median income in the US is barely above what it was pre-recession. The minimum wage is still $7.25. I've read that with respect to inflation American incomes have been stagnate since the late 70s-80s (the bottom end). And we have been overtaken by countries that provide more services to their workers/citizens. Maybe we are still adjusting to the service based economy and need to provide more training/awareness in this sector.

 

Those are my thoughts. I'm glad that we are having a dialogue in this nation about globalization and its discontents. I credit that to Trump because before him I don't think our leaders took it too serious as there was a time when both Republicans and Democrats were signing free trade agreements.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Nothing new about it, you just didn't notice it until now, because your ox got gored. Trump is making truth cool again, among other things. http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/

 

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

Edited December 11, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[BruceVC]

 

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Nothing new about it, you just didn't notice it until now, because your ox got gored. Trump is making truth cool again, among other things. http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/

 

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

 

Sorry WOD snookims but you were equally fooled by Trump, you dropped your support for him because of  sustained daily  criticism, though misplaced, and then finally the sexism incident made you say  " okay this is too much even for me  " 

 

We supported your unexpected SJ sympathies but .....we were wrong in this case, its rare but it happens even to us 

 

You should have stuck by Trump, imagine the moral high gound you would have had on this forum? This would have been one of those almost inexplicable times where if you wanted you could REALLY have gloated because sometimes I think the guys do tease you a little and keep taking what you say literally 

[Malcador]

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Don't think it is new. Social media certainly hasn't helped it, what with sites feeding people what they want to hear and all.

 

Internet wasn't that great an idea

[Meshugger]

 

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Don't think it is new. Social media certainly hasn't helped it, what with sites feeding people what they want to hear and all.

 

Internet wasn't that great an idea

 

 

It's older than the Internet itself:

 

[Malcador]

Yes, as I said the Internet allows for it to be worse.

[Zoraptor]

Dunno about that, the internet also makes fact checking relatively easy for most things. The ultimate problem is people; we tend to make decisions based on emotion, not have much in the way of critical faculties/ desire to be actually informed and then tend to believe what we want to whatever the evidence shown. The internet has made it far easier to make stuff up and get it looked at, but it has also made it far easier to debunk stuff as well; it's just that no matter how thorough the debunking some will still believe.

 

It certainly doesn't help that the media who should be doing a good job are doing a poor one, I certainly can't blame people for being deeply sceptical when there's so much to be legitimately sceptical of even from supposedly respectable sources.

 

As for being old, it's pretty ancient and almost certainly is a direct consequence of writing. Pharaoh Thutmose's depiction of the Battle of Megiddo certainly fits the general category of propaganda and presents the narrative Thutmose wanted, with no practical way for the average Egyptian to challenge it.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

Well, based on my browsings over the past year, certainly seems the BS ideas outpace the debunking (also has convinced me 90% of Reddit users need eliminating). Never said the Internet was the issue, as you said people being people is the problem, my joke about the Internet aside, it's just the Internet amplifying what's already there.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Malcador

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Nothing new about it, you just didn't notice it until now, because your ox got gored. Trump is making truth cool again, among other things. http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/

 

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

 

Sorry WOD snookims but you were equally fooled by Trump, you dropped your support for him because of  sustained daily  criticism, though misplaced, and then finally the sexism incident made you say  " okay this is too much even for me  " 

 

We supported your unexpected SJ sympathies but .....we were wrong in this case, its rare but it happens even to us 

 

You should have stuck by Trump, imagine the moral high gound you would have had on this forum? This would have been one of those almost inexplicable times where if you wanted you could REALLY have gloated because sometimes I think the guys do tease you a little and keep taking what you say literally 

 

Gloating is stupid because sooner or later everyone face plants. I finally decided to support Trump because doing nothing isn't an option when the good of the country is at stake, despite the moral objections.

[Gorth]

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

I stopped reading at this part 'Even without Iran’s direction and sponsorship of militias killing of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq'... Hands up anyone who believes the Sunni insurgents are supported and backed by Iran?

 

Bonus points if anyone believes Trump is going to tell Boeing to drop the new deal for 80 airplanes destined for Iran.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

It is the new game in town, you don't need facts anymore, you just make narrative that you want and repeat it until people accept it as fact.

Nothing new about it, you just didn't notice it until now, because your ox got gored. Trump is making truth cool again, among other things. http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-just-made-10-things-cool/

 

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

 

Sorry WOD snookims but you were equally fooled by Trump, you dropped your support for him because of  sustained daily  criticism, though misplaced, and then finally the sexism incident made you say  " okay this is too much even for me  " 

 

We supported your unexpected SJ sympathies but .....we were wrong in this case, its rare but it happens even to us 

 

You should have stuck by Trump, imagine the moral high gound you would have had on this forum? This would have been one of those almost inexplicable times where if you wanted you could REALLY have gloated because sometimes I think the guys do tease you a little and keep taking what you say literally 

 

Gloating is stupid because sooner or later everyone face plants. I finally decided to support Trump because doing nothing isn't an option when the good of the country is at stake, despite the moral objections.

 

Wait, what was your moral objection? I guess I missed it.

[Zoraptor]

 

I stopped reading at this part 'Even without Iran’s direction and sponsorship of militias killing of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq'... Hands up anyone who believes the Sunni insurgents are supported and backed by Iran?

 

 

He means the Mehdi Army and similar shia militia. They still weren't significantly supported by Iran since they supported Sadr's rivals Al-Sistani and Nouri Al-Maliki but at least Iranian support for them was plausible and made general sense unlike the ludicrous 'Iran supports Al Qaeda!!!/ Taleban!!!/ ISIS!!!' story some try to push.

 

End of the day Iran didn't even need to do anything to the US in Iraq, as soon as they held an election they'd get a friendly leader. Which is exactly what happened.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Malcador]

 

Edit: Also watch true masters of false narrative at work: http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/09/ben-rhodes-reveals-how-obama-duped-america-into-the-dangerous-iran-deal/

I stopped reading at this part 'Even without Iran’s direction and sponsorship of militias killing of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq'... Hands up anyone who believes the Sunni insurgents are supported and backed by Iran?

 

Bonus points if anyone believes Trump is going to tell Boeing to drop the new deal for 80 airplanes destined for Iran.

He might, just has to bribe them elsewhere. Meshbacks will clap

[redneckdevil]

So what's been going in turkey? Saw something about doing away with prime minister then the next there was explosions.