Politics 2016

[licketysplit]

 

 

 

 

 

So you want to tell me that US is a crystal clean democracy, where symphaties of voters actually matter? That there is more freedom and it's not more closer to an actual police state with many shady institutions governing and policing you over which you have no real influence?

 

 

More freedom than in Russia? That's not exactly a high bar to clear.

 

 

Have you been to Russia? I've been there and in the US, so I can compare.

 

Dark you not seriously suggesting Russia is a free society?

 

 

are they not? they have more personal freedoms than people in EU or US. They are not getting shot by the police on the streets, there is less overall surveillance. Sure, on average they have less money, the media are mostly steered by pro-gov powers and it's difficult to get to high positions of wealth and power and there is limited influence of you average citizens or the ones living outside of main hubs for the politics, but is it really that much different from what you are experiencing in EU and US? Isn't this just a matter of perception rather than actual power of the individual. Can you really tell that you actually can have your input on the politics and who represents you and your point of view?

 

The only country that does so fairly well (or at least it seemed like it when i was there) is Switzerland. I'd trade a lot to be a Swiss citizen.

 

@BrotherFerg

 

are they systematically oppressed? is there a law to jail someone for being homosexual? perhaps it's not oppression, but simply lack of extra privileges?

 

 

Yes, we have greater freedoms here in the U.S. than in Russia, especially freedom of expression. Try criticising Putin here, and then in Moscow. See how things pan out in each country. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

There is laws that if you speak about homosexuality you can be jailed, because of spreading homosexual propaganda. These laws are used to jail people carrying rainbow flags etc. symbols of LGBT community, so I would say that they are very much systematically oppressed.

That only mean that they don't have the privilage of running in the streets with their genitals displayed. Russian approach is reasonable and the West is not.

 

 

Apparently flags count as genitals now. Guess you learn something new every day.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

@BrotherFerg

 

are they systematically oppressed? is there a law to jail someone for being homosexual? perhaps it's not oppression, but simply lack of extra privileges?

There is laws that if you speak about homosexuality you can be jailed, because of spreading homosexual propaganda. These laws are used to jail people carrying rainbow flags etc. symbols of LGBT community, so I would say that they are very much systematically oppressed.

That only mean that they don't have the privilage of running in the streets with their genitals displayed. Russian approach is reasonable and the West is not.

 

The Russian approach is just another example of how under  Putin Russia has become an intolerant and insensitive society, it is this type of social development that puts Russia at opposite ends to the West

 

Russia doesnt share certain core values that the West believes in, if you are a bigot and or homophobe then the egregious discrimination in Russia against the LGBT  community will seem rational and reasonable  but for many people it is appalling and contemptuous 

[Blodhemn]

That's nothing new. When Clinton was President, he'd hold two press conferences when addressing the globe. The PC, warm and fuzzy version to Europe, no matter how untrue, and then the blunt and truer version to Russia. It was discovered that Russians respect that method more, while Europe just happily enjoyed being told what they wanted to hear.

[Azdeus]

Apparently flags count as genitals now. Guess you learn something new every day.

 

I don't remember the details to 100% right now, but you can do that if you are alone, but if you have some friend near you (Arbitrarily decided by the police on the scene), you're a crowd and you'll get arrested.

Ofcourse, if you do carry a rainbow flag visibly the chance that one of the many hategroups will see you and will come beat you too a bloody pulp. Since you're alone... And they will get away with it, because the police will not do anything to help you if that is the case. Even if there is photographic evidence.

[BruceVC]

That's nothing new. When Clinton was President, he'd hold two press conferences when addressing the globe. The PC, warm and fuzzy version to Europe, no matter how untrue, and then the blunt and truer version to Russia. It was discovered that Russians respect that method more, while Europe just happily enjoyed being told what they wanted to hear.

Im not following some of your point, what potentially untrue information were the Europeans told and what were the Russians told? 

[Volourn]

"  Putin Russia has become an intolerant and insensitive society"

 

Become.? L0L

[BruceVC]

Thanks everybody, tried looking it up but I'm just seeing a lot of bs so I'd ask y'all.

So it boils down to we need a adversary and Russia fits the bill because they don't wanna play our game and do the same stuff we do but to people we are allies with.

While I LOVE democracy, I'm at least open minded to know that it's not for everyone and that isn't something we should hold against them.

I guess it's to much trouble for our govt to be on friendly terms and give and take with Russia and keep an eye on them like they would to us.

Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?

[Agiel]

are they systematically oppressed? is there a law to jail someone for being homosexual? perhaps it's not oppression, but simply lack of extra privileges?

 

 

Sounds awfully Orwellian to me. What's next? Food shortages are "ration adjustments?"

[BruceVC]

"  Putin Russia has become an intolerant and insensitive society"

 

Become.? L0L

Its definitely got worse over the last 10 years, the way the Kremlin supports a certain narrative and believes in Russian hegemony is concerning

 

The state sponsored doping and state supported hacking is an example of this 

[Volourn]

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

[BruceVC]

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT  infrastructure of countries is also a relatively  new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum  because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes see 

[redneckdevil]

 

 

Thanks everybody, tried looking it up but I'm just seeing a lot of bs so I'd ask y'all.

So it boils down to we need a adversary and Russia fits the bill because they don't wanna play our game and do the same stuff we do but to people we are allies with.

While I LOVE democracy, I'm at least open minded to know that it's not for everyone and that isn't something we should hold against them.

I guess it's to much trouble for our govt to be on friendly terms and give and take with Russia and keep an eye on them like they would to us.

Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?

I do, but I'm just finding it a bit ironic and a bit funny that USA wont get along with Russia because of difference in beliefs BUT in USA christians and Muslims and atheists are all supposed to get along even though they have difference in beliefs and ideals by LAW.

Just seems a bit hypocritical of USA especially with tolerance being shoved down our throats over here. Why not do what they force their citizens to do, get along and work together even though culture/beliefs/morals are different and go against each other.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Thanks everybody, tried looking it up but I'm just seeing a lot of bs so I'd ask y'all.

So it boils down to we need a adversary and Russia fits the bill because they don't wanna play our game and do the same stuff we do but to people we are allies with.

While I LOVE democracy, I'm at least open minded to know that it's not for everyone and that isn't something we should hold against them.

I guess it's to much trouble for our govt to be on friendly terms and give and take with Russia and keep an eye on them like they would to us.

Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?

I do, but I'm just finding it a bit ironic and a bit funny that USA wont get along with Russia because of difference in beliefs BUT in USA christians and Muslims and atheists are all supposed to get along even though they have difference in beliefs and ideals by LAW.

Just seems a bit hypocritical of USA especially with tolerance being shoved down our throats over here. Why not do what they force their citizens to do, get along and work together even though culture/beliefs/morals are different and go against each other.

 

You are asking a very pertinent question, I have realized people like myself who have been raising this whole 

  

" guys Russia is hacking the USA,.,,,,,,why aren't you getting upset " are not explaining the context or going into the history of cyber-espionage  so it probably seems we are making at times  an unreasonable fuss over something that for many people doesnt appear serious

 

I am going to make a separate post around this to explain in more detail why the Russian hacking is a concern ...I look forward to your comments 

 

 

 

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT infrastructure of countries is also a relatively new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes see

You are talking about new methods and new technology not new mentality. As always you don't dissapoint by being clueless and oblivious to reality and facts. Volourn is right, mentaly Russians didn't change at all for... well it will be a century in March.

 

Oh you guys are talking about the historical behavior of Russia and not what they actually do nowadays....its still inconsistent to the criticism but I see the point 

Edited January 1, 2017 by BruceVC

[redneckdevil]

BruceVC, the reason why we didn't get upset is because we know Putin didn't hack the election, the DNC got hacked. Also the CIA nor the govt have presented any proof whatsoever and with all the fabrication and embellishments we have had to suffer thru as "FACts" and "NEWs", **** them. They've gotten to a point where they can say the sky is blue and people will disagree to spite them because they've gotten ****ed to many times.

From the election, we know what we are getting from the news is not FACTs anymore, but narrative and it's narrative the Democratic Party wants us to think. It fell flat on its ass and right when trump won, many people spoke out and showed how biased and not based on facts but narrative they wanted to push and told them to back off and rethink their approach. They fell on deaf ears with the media and went right back in doing the same exact **** they were before.

 

Think about what being told right now. Russia hacked the election and it was orchestrated by Putin. Pay attention because this is why we aren't upset.

No one "hacked" the election at all.

what got "hacked" and we don't even know if it actually got hacked, was the DNC and emails were LEAKED.

The election wasn't "rigged", hell we did recounts to show that.

 

**** our media and **** Obama with his tantrums he's throwing. No matter how good or whatever he was, this tantrum is the equivalent of some lil kid who got mad and is crying and pouting off the field while knocking over equipment and trying to break **** so that the other kids can't play because they are done playing with him and wanna play a different game. that's how bad it's gotten really when I'm looking forward to trump coming in and hopefully burning everything to the ground.

 

 

One good thing that I've noticed from this election and from brexit, is that the EU and democrates are a lot alike but they aren't wanting what the image they are putting off.

 

Edit-I still think it's hypocritical that USA can't/isn't getting along with Russia when the USA forces their citizens to work and live and tolerate people with opposing lifestyles but won't practice what they preach.

**** Obama and **** our media, thank god one of them is on his way out.

Edited January 1, 2017 by redneckdevil

[Zoraptor]

 

are they systematically oppressed? is there a law to jail someone for being homosexual? perhaps it's not oppression, but simply lack of extra privileges?

 

 

Sounds awfully Orwellian to me. What's next?

 

Dunno, probably a lot of talk about 'fake news', a lot of talk about the provocations and warmongering of the Old Enemy, and a lot of talk about how there are too many internal divisions due to the warmongering and lying of the enemy and we need increased internal harmony- and the commensurate need to establish entities to correct the enemies' lies, ensure that war does not start and promote internal harmony. Now, if only someone could come up with catchy names for those entities, "Centre Against Terrorism and Hybrid Threats" is just plain unwieldy.

 

(though yeah, 'lack of extra privileges' is a... unusual way to put being thrown in jail for 'promoting' homosexuality. Stupid and oppressive law mostly done to pander to conservatives in the Russian Orthodox Church. Though it doesn't help that most gay rights' groups in Russia have external funders who are not exactly friendly to Russia or Putin)

[redneckdevil]

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

[redneckdevil]

 

 

 

 

Thanks everybody, tried looking it up but I'm just seeing a lot of bs so I'd ask y'all.

So it boils down to we need a adversary and Russia fits the bill because they don't wanna play our game and do the same stuff we do but to people we are allies with.

While I LOVE democracy, I'm at least open minded to know that it's not for everyone and that isn't something we should hold against them.

I guess it's to much trouble for our govt to be on friendly terms and give and take with Russia and keep an eye on them like they would to us.

Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?

I do, but I'm just finding it a bit ironic and a bit funny that USA wont get along with Russia because of difference in beliefs BUT in USA christians and Muslims and atheists are all supposed to get along even though they have difference in beliefs and ideals by LAW.

Just seems a bit hypocritical of USA especially with tolerance being shoved down our throats over here. Why not do what they force their citizens to do, get along and work together even though culture/beliefs/morals are different and go against each other.

You are asking a very pertinent question, I have realized people like myself who have been raising this whole

 

" guys Russia is hacking the USA,.,,,,,,why aren't you getting upset " are not explaining the context or going into the history of cyber-espionage so it probably seems we are making at times an unreasonable fuss over something that for many people doesnt appear serious

 

I am going to make a separate post around this to explain in more detail why the Russian hacking is a concern ...I look forward to your comments

 

 

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT infrastructure of countries is also a relatively new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes see

You are talking about new methods and new technology not new mentality. As always you don't dissapoint by being clueless and oblivious to reality and facts. Volourn is right, mentaly Russians didn't change at all for... well it will be a century in March.

Oh you guys are talking about the historical behavior of Russia and not what they actually do nowadays....its still inconsistent to the criticism but I see the point

I'd like to know, it's always good to get as many sides of the story even if u may not agree with what's being said. Also I'm a bit on edge with RL, so don't take my rants personal lol

[BruceVC]

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

The rise of homophobia in Russia  is not a big factor for the tension between the West and Russia, this would be a minor issue in the world of global-politics. But it creates criticism from some circles towards Russia but this is more on a SJ\equality level

 

The West has a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, they are both united in the war on Islamic extremism. After 9/11 Saudi Arabia didnt care about fighting Islamic extremism until they started getting targeted. So the West and countries like Saudi Arabia have a common enemy

 

We have to ignore the obvious issues around some human rights abuses in places like Saudi because we face a greater threat from the likes of ISIS and Al-Qaeda 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks everybody, tried looking it up but I'm just seeing a lot of bs so I'd ask y'all.

So it boils down to we need a adversary and Russia fits the bill because they don't wanna play our game and do the same stuff we do but to people we are allies with.

While I LOVE democracy, I'm at least open minded to know that it's not for everyone and that isn't something we should hold against them.

I guess it's to much trouble for our govt to be on friendly terms and give and take with Russia and keep an eye on them like they would to us.

Red just to be clear, do you want to know why this perceived animosity and suspicion exists towards Russia?

I do, but I'm just finding it a bit ironic and a bit funny that USA wont get along with Russia because of difference in beliefs BUT in USA christians and Muslims and atheists are all supposed to get along even though they have difference in beliefs and ideals by LAW.

Just seems a bit hypocritical of USA especially with tolerance being shoved down our throats over here. Why not do what they force their citizens to do, get along and work together even though culture/beliefs/morals are different and go against each other.

You are asking a very pertinent question, I have realized people like myself who have been raising this whole

 

" guys Russia is hacking the USA,.,,,,,,why aren't you getting upset " are not explaining the context or going into the history of cyber-espionage so it probably seems we are making at times an unreasonable fuss over something that for many people doesnt appear serious

 

I am going to make a separate post around this to explain in more detail why the Russian hacking is a concern ...I look forward to your comments

 

 

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT infrastructure of countries is also a relatively new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes see

You are talking about new methods and new technology not new mentality. As always you don't dissapoint by being clueless and oblivious to reality and facts. Volourn is right, mentaly Russians didn't change at all for... well it will be a century in March.

Oh you guys are talking about the historical behavior of Russia and not what they actually do nowadays....its still inconsistent to the criticism but I see the point

I'd like to know, it's always good to get as many sides of the story even if u may not agree with what's being said. Also I'm a bit on edge with RL, so don't take my rants personal lol

 

I enjoy your views and dont see your posts as rants, rather as honest manifestations of frustration around some societal dynamics

[Elerond]

 

Nonsense. It's always been like this. That has always been Russia's way.

Highly unlikely as the state doping was only implemented after the bad results of the Russian athletes after the Vancouver 2010 games and the ability of Russia to interfere in the IT  infrastructure of countries is also a relatively  new phenomena ....we have seen this the last 10-15 years maximum  because hackers lacked the resources to implement the types of disruptions we sometimes see 

 

 

It was today 27 years ago when PSInet launched their alternative for Internet's backbone that would grow to one of the networks that we today know as Internet. Meaning that we haven't had that long IT infrastructure that can be targeted by hackers.

[Elerond]

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

 

Don't worry Turkey is part of Nato, and they also like systematically oppress their people. So you know how much freedom means for freedom army 

[BruceVC]

 

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

 

Don't worry Turkey is part of Nato, and they also like systematically oppress their people. So you know how much freedom means for freedom army 

 

 

Yes Turkey has made some controversial political choices but they also a very important strategic partner to the West in the region so we cannot be too judgemental

 

For example, one of the many benefits Turkey provides is the processing area for refugees attempting to get to Europe 

[Zoraptor]

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

 

You can't. Those with a few smarts will actually agree and say that Saudi is reprehensible as well, but that should not detract from Russia's flaws which is perfectly true. Otherwise, call it 'whataboutism' (lazy, pathetic, abject term that it is), since we're talking about how horrible Russia is and nothing else, or accuse someone bringing it up of being paid by Russia in lieu of an actual argument.

 

I'd say that gay rights is well down the list of things that don't make the US and Russia friends though (since they are friends with Saudi etc; being active geopolitical rivals is enough for dislike pretty much by definition), that's primarily used as part of a 'smorgasbord' approach where you lay out all the bad things about [entity] and people can choose which bits they individually are outraged about. That's actually how 'fake news' works too except there the smorgasbord has lots of 'fake' dishes to pick from and the aim may also be to confuse and obfuscate. Practically, both have some true/ false stuff mixed in with them- eg 'fake news' from WaPo of Russians hacking the power grid or CNN that Russia was going to deprive US children in Russia of an education by shutting their school down. While corrections are issued there's still an effect and the selective reporting has lead to 50% of Clinton voters believing that Russia literally hacked and altered votes in the election despite Obama and everyone else actively shutting that idea down.

[Malcador]

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

And why should they be friendly with Russia ? You're one of those people that are friendly with everyone until you have a reason not to ?

[BruceVC]

 

okay, people's rights. Russia is against homosexuality and don't give the LGBT community rights like other citizens.....

So how can we use that as an excuse for not being on friendly terms with Russia when Obama and USA is GREAT friends with Saudia Arabia?

And why should they be friendly with Russia ? You're one of those people that are friendly with everyone until you have a reason not to ?

 

Russia has hot strippers ......isnt that a reason to be friendly to Russia