Azaven constitution check and Thassilonian Sins

[jolyonb]

So, I'm playing this on heroic, which increases the difficulty to defeat villains by 5 for each villain defeated. Azaven is the last to go, and he wants a difficulty 27 constitution check to begin with? I think this is incorrect - it's not to defeat him, so it shouldn't get the +15...

 

Also, why is this +15? I defeated somebody previously, but he escaped. So he wasn't really defeated. +15 is getting rather seriously mean...

[Borissimo]

The rules are rather famously fuzzy on the "defeat" terminology for villains. My understanding is that when you defeat a villain, he either escapes or he doesn't, but either way he is considered defeated. This makes 5.4 a particularly brutal scenario.

[jolyonb]

The rules are rather famously fuzzy on the "defeat" terminology for villains. My understanding is that when you defeat a villain, he either escapes or he doesn't, but either way he is considered defeated. This makes 5.4 a particularly brutal scenario.

 

Yeah, I am rapidly growing to dislike this adventure. It's going to be a tough nut to crack on legendary.

 

Also oops, I think I meant to put this in the technical support forum ;-)

[runslikeawelshman]

I'm having trouble with this one, too. I've beaten every other scenario on Legendary but can't even crack this one on Heroic. That stacking +5 difficulty just racks up way too high by the end, especially when it applies to Azaven's Constitution check, too. And that transmuter - I swear he's never rolled anything other than a 1 or 2 on that d6. Such a resource drain. I've tried it with larger groups and smaller groups. I've been closest to success with a Lini/Valeros duo. Maybe if I keep trying with them I'll eventually get lucky enough to finish it. Any advice would be most welcome.

[mccrispy]

It's funny isn't it how those 1 in 3 chances come up 9 in 10? I had the same problem with the "CZ" Villain in one of the earlier packs. I think my record is 3 successive Undefeateds (and it probably only stopped there 'cos I was out of ammo)

[Longshot11]

 I had the same problem with the "CZ" Villain in one of the earlier packs. I think my record is 3 successive Undefeateds (and it probably only stopped there 'cos I was out of ammo)

Unlikely. That bastard doesn't even care if you defeat him, so you have no say in the rerolls. My record with him is 6 successive undefeats - even after my hand was wiped and I had no chance to beat him after the first one!

 

On the bright side (for me) - I never rolled 1-2 in probably 6+ encounters with Ordikon...

[cheungie]

I somehow managed to beat Thassilonian Sins on heroic difficulty through sheer luck but have been stuck on legendary for days. I was close twice but was beaten by the transmuter in the last turn on both occasions (he always rolled a 1 or 2 on that d6)!!!! This scenario is too brutal! What is the best strategy for this scenario? My party consists of Lem, Valeros, Lini and Harsk. Valeros is having a really hard time dealing with one of the henchmen and to close some locations due to his poor wisdom.

Edited November 25, 2016 by cheungie

[jolyonb]

Here's my take on Thassilonian Sins on Heroic/Legendary. You basically only want to beat each of the villains once each, because that +5 modifier just keeps growing bigger and bigger if you defeat them and they escape. So, the idea is to try to close off the locations with the henchmen first, and then deal with the bosses. This means you want a party of at least three, so that you can have two characters temp close two locations with bosses while you beat on the third boss.

 

I find that larger parties work better, for a few reasons. Firstly, the first few locations you get are all really tough to close (or worse, temp close repeatedly). The last few locations from bigger parties are much easier. Secondly, having larger parties means that you'll have more blessings to throw around to beat on the really high difficulty checks.

 

The other thing that stands out in this adventure is that the ability to scout is really, really important. Choose characters with abilities to help with this, and stock your decks with cards that help. If you find a henchman somewhere in a deck, pile your characters on that deck to close it as a priority. You really don't want to accidentally run into a boss until you're ready,

 

Meri with delay is really useful, because she can evade a villain and leave him on top. You want Meri to tear through locations as quickly as possible (save all her blessings for explores). I always start her in the location that has no spells and requires you to bury your hand to close, because she doesn't need spells, and can typically discard most of her hand on a combat check so it doesn't get buried.

 

I like having Lem around, because he can close two of the locations that need charisma checks, and can help out on the other closings/big boss battles.

 

Harsk is really good too, because he can deal with the constitution check close and add in bonuses to battles for everybody. Also, his scout the top of the deck ability is invaluable in finding which locations have bosses.

 

Seelah is also really good at scouting locations by discarding the top card. If you're playing this on legendary, you're not looking for cards to pick up, so putting boons on the bottom isn't a problem.

 

Lini is good, because she can almost autoclose some of those locations that need wisdom 12 with the help of an animal (there's three of them, I think, and they're a pain).

 

On Legendary, Amiri is basically a necessity because she can move people around quickly, circumventing the movement restrictions.

 

Some cards I find really helpful:

* Eagle ally - scout the top of any deck

* Mayor ally - see what's in a deck

* Revelation quill / spyglass / magic spyglass / kohl - See what's in a deck and reorganize it

* Wand of treasure finding - can let you look partway through a deck to see if it's got a boss (leave that deck be) or a henchman (go after him!)

 

You will also need to pick and choose which wildcards you're willing to play with. I won't even attempt this mission on heroic/legendary with some sets of wildcards.

[runslikeawelshman]

Great advice! I beat it on Heroic on the second attempt with Merisiel, Lem, Harsk, and Seelah. Admittedly, I got pretty lucky with draws but the strategy of "scouting" and choosing your opponents as much as possible to only face villains when they could be permanently defeated worked really well. Didn't even come close on my first attempt at Legendary, though. Oh well, I'll try some more tomorrow!

[cheungie]

Thank you for your advice jolyonb. Which set of wild cards appeared when you beat this on legendary?

Edited November 25, 2016 by cheungie

[jolyonb]

cheungie: The only time I beat this on legendary, the game borked and thought "You haven't won!" after all locations were closed and I wasn't awarded a victory ( I believe I had "+4 to difficulty to acquire boons" and "One extra monster shuffled into the deck". Legendary is really rough. I think I've tried it 5 times, with one (unrewarded) success?

[cheungie]

cheungie: The only time I beat this on legendary, the game borked and thought "You haven't won!" after all locations were closed and I wasn't awarded a victory

I guess I shouldn't bother with this until the bug is fixed.

 

I am beginning to think 5.4 at legendary difficulty is imbalanced. Is it time to re-balance the diffculty? I have only played the digital version so I am not sure if there is a legendary mode in the original card game. Is this a faithful reproduction of the original game?

Edited November 25, 2016 by cheungie

[runslikeawelshman]

There are no difficulty modes in the tabletop version of the game. The wild card powers and restricted movement were introduced for the digital version.

 

(Unless they were included in one of the other box sets - I only own Rise of the Runelords and Wrath of the Righteous)

 

I agree that the difficulty may need to be addressed. Legendary difficulty should require tactical gameplay and experienced characters (i.e. well-built decks), not near-impossible luck.

Edited November 25, 2016 by runslikeawelshman

[Hannibal_PJV]

If you want to have "original" experience, the normal mode is for that. So if Legendary is too difficult it is not a problem. You just have to avoid plaing with it...

I think that the impossible difficulty is the reason we still go back to legendary... we people Are funny greatures.

Oh, how we Are gonna hate Legendary difficulty in AD6... I can't wait to get there and bang my head against unpassable wall

Edited November 26, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[cheungie]

Thank you for your confirmation. I do enjoy the challenge of the legendary mode in other scenarios. It is just that the difficulty increase in this particular scenario is a bit disproportionate.

[Nym]

Definitely the hardest Legendary yet. Even setting aside the myriad technical issues, you have to strike a very delicate balance between closing locations and not allowing the stacking villain bonus to get too high. But, like every other challenging Legendary up to this point, the best solution is more scrying. Quill, Amulet, Scry, Augury, anything you can get your hands on. I think this might be the first scenario where I'd put Harsk in the recommended lineup. In most other Legendaries encountering the Villian is no big deal and often just results in a fairly quick location closure, but the careful timing required in Sins makes even Harsk's anemic scouting tool invaluable.

[Longshot11]

 Even setting aside the myriad technical issues, you have to strike a very delicate balance between closing locations and not allowing the stacking villain bonus to get too high. But, like every other challenging Legendary up to this point, the best solution is more scrying.

Except, if you're playing a solo character - good luck with that. BEST case scenario, the final villain will have +20 to defeat. I don't think Obsidian actively tried to make it impossible for solo - they just didn't care enough.

[mccrispy]

You raise a good point about OBS not caring enough. I'm not sure that it's that exactly, but I'm sure that they don't test properly. Of course if they do test properly, then you are right: they don't care, because then they *know* about the quality issues but release anyway. Of course you could say that they don't care because they don't test properly. That may be true, but I suspect that it's more of a financial decision at a more senior level (but still not caring, but at a layer removed from the folks we deal with). In my experience the things most subject to feeling the financial pinch are (in my experience and having worked in all these areas): documentation, training, security and quality.

[Amentep]

I don't know anything with respect to the development of this game, but my memory from backing the game is that Obsidian's PILLARS OF ETERNITY was designed - and thus tested - to expect the player to use as full a party as they could. They didn't prioritize soloing the game or making sure it was possible.

 

The physical card game is playable one player, but has the caveat iirc that not all characters were equal for solo play. My guess (perhaps wrongly) is the additional modes were tested with likely parties rather than solo play.

 

Again no special knowledge, so I could be wrong.

[Nym]

 

 Even setting aside the myriad technical issues, you have to strike a very delicate balance between closing locations and not allowing the stacking villain bonus to get too high. But, like every other challenging Legendary up to this point, the best solution is more scrying.

Except, if you're playing a solo character - good luck with that. BEST case scenario, the final villain will have +20 to defeat. I don't think Obsidian actively tried to make it impossible for solo - they just didn't care enough.

 

 

Probably going to be pretty hard with someone like, say, Lem but I think it's still achievable for the stronger heroes with the right deck lineup. Quills to scry the location decks quickly so that you have time to sit and cycle your deck to set up the correct combination of cards for tackling a given villain. Blessings of Lamasthu would probably be essential for the last couple villain attempts.

 

Hardly guaranteed, but I don't know about impossible.

 

Edit: Just gave it a try with as solo Seoni. Took six attempts, not counting instant re-rolls for bad wild card draws.

 

Deck:

Disintegrate

Haste

Gozreh's Trident (2)

Scrying (2)

Emerald Codex

Revelation Quill

Wand of Enervation (2)

Evangelist

Poog of Zarongel (3)

Blessing of Pharasma (5)

Favor of Pharasma (2)

 

Deck could be optimized a fair bit more, but it did the job. The clear order was Maze > Vault > Crypts because the one card per check limit in Festering Maze of Sloth makes going the other direction impossible. There are a few random things that you're really looking to dodge while clearing,

 

1. Don’t encounter Arzaven early. Ideally, you don’t want to see him more than once, since there’s no way to beat his first check, and you can’t afford to have 1d4+1 cards just ripped out of your deck more than a couple of times.

2. After clearing the first location, don’t have the villain flee to the Vault of Greed. If you lose this coin-flip it means fighting an extra villain, which is no good.

3. Beat Ordikon on the first try whenever you encounter him. You just don’t have the resources to handle multiple huge checks.

 

Maybe you can have one of those three happen and still have a chance, but if you encounter two or more, then you should probably start over. Was definitely harder than clearing with a six character party, but it made for a nice change of pace as usually a larger party makes for the more challenging scenario.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Nym

[jolyonb]

Ok Nym, I'm seriously impressed.

[Darkren]

The staff of hunger and shadows is the key to beating this one