JOSH SAWYER REGRETS: Hard counters, sillier companions, and more

[Fenixp]

They did actually show on the 'little window thing' on the bottom right part of the screen - there are two tabs, one for combat log and the other for conversation log.

[Loren Tyr]

To make it even worse, the companion-to-companion interactions (as opposed to player to companion) were played as sound snippets in the background, which ensured they had to be brief, typically AB or ABA structured. That severely restricted the possibilities for both serious and silly inter-party debates.

 

To be honest, I rather prefer it this way; the banter is much more naturally integrated in the game, they're just snippets of conversation that go on in the background to lend flavour rather than obtrusively triggering dialogue windows for dialogue that the main character isn't even part of. I like the non-party NPC variant of that as well actually, with the sideways comments on quests, tragic knife accidents and other goings on in the background. They should do more of that, frankly. Perhaps also in a more non-verbal sense. Livens up the place.

[kanisatha]

They did actually show on the 'little window thing' on the bottom right part of the screen - there are two tabs, one for combat log and the other for conversation log.

@Fenixp thanks, but see that's the thing. I always keep that window open and tabbed to the conversation log and I check that box whenever I think I heard someone say something (including NPCs not speaking directly to me) but there's nothing there. Only things spoken with my character show up. Do the lines in the box go away after a few seconds or something like that?

[Sedrefilos]

Silly characters are silly. No thanks

[rjshae]

A big part of what I found enjoyable was that PoE took itself seriously. Inserting silly characters is pointless without providing a suitable rationale for why they are silly. I found Hiravias a bit silly at times, but it was done in a completely acceptable manner.

[anameforobsidian]

I could do with more characters like Eder and Hirviras and less like Grobnar when designing humorous characters.  Writing silly characters is hard, especially in a game with so relatively few npc choices.  

 

I would say the best silly character I played with from a game like this is Deekin, despite NWN1 being mediocre.  The characters need a real motivation and real concerns.  Minsc wasn't really afraid.  Jan had a better quest, but his characterization was too different in his banter and in his quest.  Imoen was light-hearted, not silly.  I didn't touch Korgan because he was evil and that was a pain in the ass.  Khelgar was just dumb.

 

And that brings me to a real concern; does Obsidian have the writing talent to pull of silly characters?  It's a different skill.  Mitsoda (VtMB) left a while back.  Avellone (FNV:OWB) also left.  Are there still over the top humor writers kicking around Obsidian?  Anyone who had a large part in OWB?

 

If not, that's fine.  I think the game would be served with more characters like Hirviras and Eder.  Eder's cynicism is grounded in the setting, and is a great contrast to flashes of the somewhat innocent person he was.  Hirviras' intentional vulgarity and cynicism are also grounded in the setting, and even mechanics in his case.  I think its fine if your best characters are humorous but realistically so.

[Multihog]

I, too, agree about the silly characters point. Then again, I loved the over the top, tongue in the cheek attitude of Divinity: Original Sin, so my opinion is strongly influenced by personal taste for that kind of a style. 

 

The early game lore dumping was kind of irritating as well. 

[Gromnir]

josh has a curious sense o' humor.  he says he likes funny, but is tough to get outta him what, if anything, he genuine thought were funny in a game-- any game.  likely how some developer messed up roman history or the inquisition or somesuch.  "silly," we suspect, is josh being dismissive o' humor he don't like.

 

am personal not a fan o' silly, but we do like humor, particularly in entertainment that has a duration o' tens o' hours.  be dour and serious for +20 hours is cruel. am thinking one genuine needs humor in lengthy crpgs.  am not a fan o' silly or cheap laughs, but +20 hours o' serious is reminding us o' a few o' our least favorite university courses, or german stand-up comedy. 

 

 

is sawyer german?

 

elmore leonard observed that he were an admirer o' hemingway, an author who made writing look so easy.  'course leonard noted that he had to give up on hemingway as a role model 'cause ernest had no sense o' humor.  am not being critical, but is nobody current (or past) writing at obsidian who were anywhere near talented as hemingway.  clear ain't anybody writing as part o' a collaborative writing effort can be deadpan serious for entirety o' a game such as were the length o' poe without the stories and characters becoming oppressive.

 

"silly" is the wrong freaking word, but poe2 likely could use more humor... just don't let josh decide what is and ain't funny. to Gromnir, the best humor is the stuff that don't seem like it is trying to be funny, but such subtlety is gonna be difficult in a crpg, particular without the deceased elmore leonard doing story and characters for the game. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am thinking that there is also some bass ackwards reasoning at work on his conclusions 'bout hard-counters... 'least 'til we hear him explain.  absent hard counters were only problematic 'cause o' accuracy bloat.  see a need for hard counters when the actual problem were a flaw in combat maths is intellectual dishonest.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Gromnir

[SkySlam]

One-dimensional, forced silliness would be hard to bear after the first playthrough, but I'm sure they can make interesting, deep characters even hidden under a silly facade, so I'm not worried about our future companions.

 

I especially loved party banter in PoE, I think most of it was perfect, in the sense that it had a good balance of serious/fun/philosophical/joke elements and it was also plausible: that's how I really expected my companions to talk, and it made them feel alive to me.

I only hope they'll drop those flying, disappearing text and adopt a system closer to the IE games, where I could actually STOP and READ the banter. I don't know how many times I had to reload to read it (and of course a different one triggered!). I'm sucker for party banter!

 

The only thing I'm not going to negotiate is the party size. Four people (including the MC) is way too low, limiting in every aspect; I wonder how Josh came out with that strange idea that reducing the party could possibly be good for the series!?

[Loren Tyr]

I like the floaty party banter, if you actually get dialogue windows it's much more intrusive. It's a conversation between the NPCs after all, it's supposed to be a bit of a background thing. Not sure it would add anything either, if you want to read it back you can just switch to the conversation log. 

[Multihog]

Yeah, I liked the floaty banter too. It doesn't interrupt whatever you're doing. 

[Uni]

A big part of what I found enjoyable was that PoE took itself seriously. Inserting silly characters is pointless without providing a suitable rationale for why they are silly. I found Hiravias a bit silly at times, but it was done in a completely acceptable manner.

Yea, i think there was easily enough comedy. Eder wants to pet all furry things and kana is very happy go lucky guy with puppy like attitude. Zahua is also kind of silly and as much of a joke concept as id like to see in a game like this.

 

I like that the humour is more grounded and comes from different personalities clashing. Pallegina is a very serious character, but has really funny banter with eder because of that.

[evilcat]

PoE isnt that serious. Barters about pet pevee was funny. Or some comments on locations (Durance other staf and such). Havent missied the humour. Maybe one or two funny companions would be better. (like Minsc or Jan Jansen) but i dont miss them. However Hilvaris or Durance arent that serious. Eder also had his country jokes.

 

Good luck with next iteration.

Edited September 8, 2016 by evilcat

[mindswayer]

I don't think by "silly" he meant "funny/lolsorandumb" characters. I think he meant "more light-hearted" characters, such as Minsc. Every character in PoE was terribly serious.

But then again, we did get Zahua, who spouts "DUDE WEED LMAO" everytime he opens his mouth, so maybe that's just my wishful thinking. His quest was still cool as **** though, so it's ok.

Edited September 12, 2016 by mindswayer

[Sedrefilos]

Am I the only person that never adventured with Minsk? I felt he was so annoying, I dropped him out of the party at first chance :D

[ArnoldRimmer]

Am I the only person that never adventured with Minsk? I felt he was so annoying, I dropped him out of the party at first chance :D

I hated him and that boo that took up an item slot... Minsc was one I could do without - I never used him ever.

[Barbedbeat]

Am I the only person that never adventured with Minsk? I felt he was so annoying, I dropped him out of the party at first chance :D

I can barely stand him. I can barely stand any of BG's companions, actually. Except for Xan. Xan is cool, and he's he only one who's exaggerated cartoony-ness manages to actually sound -ironic-.

 

Also, Xzar's occasional outbursts are quite fun the first couple of times you hear them. Same thing applies to Khalid, even though I tend to have a soft spot fir that hysterical bundle of nerves.

 

 

 

... Sorry.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Barbedbeat

[Barbedbeat]

 

Am I the only person that never adventured with Minsk? I felt he was so annoying, I dropped him out of the party at first chance :D

I can barely stand him. I can barely stand any of BG's companions, actually. Except for Xan. Xan is cool, and he's the only one whose exaggerated cartoony-ness manages to actually sound -ironic-.

 

Also, Xzar's occasional outbursts are quite fun the first couple of times you hear them. Same thing applies to Khalid, even though I tend to have a soft spot for that hysterical bundle of nerves.

 

 

 

... Sorry.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Barbedbeat

[IndiraLightfoot]

The tone and world lore was frigging brilliant! No need to even open the second-guessing drawer, Mr. Sawyer! Be proud, rather!

 

I like Divinity: Original Sin, but it was more or less like Asterix to me, without the Latin and Roman Empire-references.

 

Silly characters, well no. I do recall annoying characters in NWN2, and they were bad as it was, but please - nothing silly.

 

As for varied locations. I'm not sure. They were pretty varied - I'd rather have loved to have seen more complex scripted encounters, both combat and NPC-talk-quest-thingies. A few exotic environments may of course be included, but it must be in keeping with the story and lore- and then not be there just for the sake of it- that would be contrived.

 

There simply must be 6 party in my group, nothing less. Well, kidding, sort of, but 4 seems a bit Wizardry to me.

 

And those pesky attributes, the extremely lengthy discussions on these forums got so heated, it was bisarre. I'm afraid that there is a solution, and that's to leave that system behind. Make the brave descision, and add some more detailed and diverse background skills which we can enhance instead. Then, we'd have a smorgasbord of like 65 parameters to tinker with, slowly, as we progress in level. As they stand now, the attributes are confusing and almost Inspector Gadget-like: Wowzers!  

Edited September 13, 2016 by IndiraLightfoot