What are you playing right now

[Drowsy Emperor]

I don't know why it was so hard for subsequent stealth games to do Thief like gameplay. Its not rocket science, yet when you look at the new Deus Ex or Dishonored, you get the impression it must be.

[quidproquo]

Thief Gold. The perfect stealth game, only matched by its own sequel and boasting unparalleled level design: A map that gives hints that one must extrapolate on and explore instead of being led by the nose. A design that is not insultingly simplified. An atmosphere that has not been matched by many titles at all. Coming back to Thief is always a pleasure and a welcome break from modern dumbing down.

Been thinking of this one. It's the old title from like 20 years ago, right? I loved Blood Money. How does it compare?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Thief Gold. The perfect stealth game, only matched by its own sequel and boasting unparalleled level design: A map that gives hints that one must extrapolate on and explore instead of being led by the nose. A design that is not insultingly simplified. An atmosphere that has not been matched by many titles at all. Coming back to Thief is always a pleasure and a welcome break from modern dumbing down.

I guess I'm one of the dumb modern players. It was all right for a while, but I finally got to a particularly confusing level and quit, at least for the time being.

[Fenixp]

I don't know why it was so hard for subsequent stealth games to do Thief like gameplay. Its not rocket science, yet when you look at the new Deus Ex or Dishonored, you get the impression it must be.

To be fair, neither of those two games really tried to do Thief-like gameplay per se - Dishonored removes emphasis on shadows and instead focuses on line of sight, which in turn means a lot brighter levels (and system which actually makes sense as opposed to Thief's "That guard won't notice me crouching in this shadow right in front of him"). Both Dishonored and Deus Ex also seek to empower the player as opposed to make him feel helpless, while also adding a lot more feasible options to any given situation outside of 'merely' sneaking past everybody. These decisions significantly affect level design and pace of these games while not necessarily reducing complexity (well I'd say level design in Human Revolution is a fair bit weaker than what we can see in Thief games, but not in Dishonored. Dishonored has some amazing level design at display.) So no, neither Dishonored nor new Deus Ex games are particularly good at being Thief, but that's mostly because they don't really intend to.

 

When it comes to recapturing Thief not being rocket science, you might want to take a look at The Dark Mod (which is standalone and no longer really a mod) which mechanically recaptures Thief games perfectly while offering a healthy community of mapmakers producing some excellent levels, albeit most don't even come close to quality of Thief's levels.

 

Been thinking of this one. It's the old title from like 20 years ago, right? I loved Blood Money. How does it compare?

It's two very different stealth games emphasizing very different elements. Hitman is mostly focused on infiltration and blending in to achieve a singular goal whereas Thief games focus on exploring large levels, giving player goals which are relatively unfocused and just letting him do whatever in order to achieve them (there's a big difference between "Kill X" in Hitman and "Find X money" in Thief.) So... Don't go in expecting Hitman - in fact, you can get a fair idea about what to expect if you do play Dark Mod I have linked above. The games are slow and very elaborate while also being extremely atmospheric. Oh and they have extremely intriguing worlds, especially Thief 2, which is the game I'd suggest you get as it is, in my opinion, the peak of the series. Edited September 11, 2016 by Fenixp

[Nonek]

 

Thief Gold. The perfect stealth game, only matched by its own sequel and boasting unparalleled level design: A map that gives hints that one must extrapolate on and explore instead of being led by the nose. A design that is not insultingly simplified. An atmosphere that has not been matched by many titles at all. Coming back to Thief is always a pleasure and a welcome break from modern dumbing down.

Been thinking of this one. It's the old title from like 20 years ago, right? I loved Blood Money. How does it compare?

 

Afraid I don't know, I quit Hitman after the first game and just seemed to miss out on the rest, have to dip the toes sometime.

 

Thief itself (yes it's the old one) is brilliant, excellent use of shadows, sound, organic introduction of mechanics and plot, levels that tell a story in and of themselves, etcetera. Only play on the highest difficulty however, it's the most rewarding and content rich.

 

Edit: Be aware that on the highest difficulty you cannot kill else you'll fail the mission, and sometimes cannot even be noticed or blackjack guards, also pay attention to the levels and explore them as they are unmatched in design. There are maps but they will only show what is known of the locations, the unknown areas will remain unmapped, there are no quest markers for holding babies hands, and paying attention, exploring and experimenting will sometimes be required. Also in many modern games if you go above an opponent you will just disappear because of poor AI, on Thief this is not so, do not underestimate guards or anyone.

 

Most of all enjoy.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Nonek

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I don't know why it was so hard for subsequent stealth games to do Thief like gameplay. Its not rocket science, yet when you look at the new Deus Ex or Dishonored, you get the impression it must be.

To be fair, neither of those two games really tried to do Thief-like gameplay per se - Dishonored removes emphasis on shadows and instead focuses on line of sight, which in turn means a lot brighter levels (and system which actually makes sense as opposed to Thief's "That guard won't notice me crouching in this shadow right in front of him"). Both Dishonored and Deus Ex also seek to empower the player as opposed to make him feel helpless, while also adding a lot more feasible options to any given situation outside of 'merely' sneaking past everybody. These decisions significantly affect level design and pace of these games while not necessarily reducing complexity (well I'd say level design in Human Revolution is a fair bit weaker than what we can see in Thief games, but not in Dishonored. Dishonored has some amazing level design at display.) So no, neither Dishonored nor new Deus Ex games are particularly good at being Thief, but that's mostly because they don't really intend to.

 

When it comes to recapturing Thief not being rocket science, you might want to take a look at The Dark Mod (which is standalone and no longer really a mod) which mechanically recaptures Thief games perfectly while offering a healthy community of mapmakers producing some excellent levels, albeit most don't even come close to quality of Thief's levels.

 

A game has to know what its about, you can't sit on two chairs and be good at everything. The stealth in Deus Ex and Dishonored is immersion breaking because most of the time someone or other is looking straight at you in broad daylight and should by all rights be screaming for alarm but they continue staring into you as if they've decided that they're not paid enough to see anything that appears above a chest high wall (or in Dishonor's case, anything that moves above the ground floor).

 

On the flip side you can shoot everyone down but since it has to go both ways the violence is often underwhelming and never actually the primary focus of these types of games.

 

So yes, you get more "options" but the design ends up muddy and inconsistent. I found Human Revolution to be overwhelmingly about ego boosting the player, with the rest of the gameworld being fairly helpless against him in almost every situation. I didn't play enough Dishonored to know how much harder it gets later on, but it had the same superhero vibe at the beginning.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Wrath of Dagon]

I thought Styx: Master of Shadows was pretty similar to Thief games.

[quidproquo]

I thought Styx: Master of Shadows was pretty similar to Thief games.

Hmmm, looks like a weird Hitman Blood Money game. Interest piqued.

 

Blood Money was an excellent game. I think of it as the pinnacle of the Hitman series, but I haven't played the latest one yet. To get the best scores, you had to make everything look like an accident. The riverboat scenario was a brute! I've never played Thief, but I've thought about it. Have to see if I can get it on the cheap at GoG or Steam. I'll try the second first like you lot suggest.

[Fenixp]

A game has to know what its about, you can't sit on two chairs and be good at everything. The stealth in Deus Ex and Dishonored is immersion breaking because most of the time someone or other is looking straight at you in broad daylight and should by all rights be screaming for alarm but they continue staring into you as if they've decided that they're not paid enough to see anything that appears above a chest high wall (or in Dishonor's case, anything that moves above the ground floor).

You also have to suspend your disbelief fairly significantly to get immersed in stealth play when it comes to Thief games. It's very apparent that they were as much tech demonstrations as they were games, with their individual aspects overblown way out of proportion to showcase the engine - shadows being these black holes which captured all light and sight of guards, bizarre footwear of the protagonist which made certain floors explode with sound regardless of how carefully he was moving. Add to that guard AI which was not really stellar because you were supposed to avoid them, not get sighted and ... Well, you get Thief. Don't get me wrong, the games are excellent, but let's not pretend they were perfect.

 

On the flip side you can shoot everyone down but since it has to go both ways the violence is often underwhelming and never actually the primary focus of these types of games.

 

So yes, you get more "options" but the design ends up muddy and inconsistent. I found Human Revolution to be overwhelmingly about ego boosting the player, with the rest of the gameworld being fairly helpless against him in almost every situation. I didn't play enough Dishonored to know how much harder it gets later on, but it had the same superhero vibe at the beginning.

Yes, Dishonored definitely does empower the player, there's no doubt about it. It's worth keeping in mind that this is a design goal so it's pretty difficult to list it as an objective disadvantage - as I said, these games are not Thief because they're not attempting to be Thief in the first place.

 

As for the rest of your post - I disagree strongly that this means design of these games is inconsistent. Gunplay/Swordplay transitions smoothly into stealth into calmer sections without really seeing any seams and given the fact they're designed to empower player, these options also make sense.

 

However, it definitely muddies up design, there's no doubt about it. As a rule of thumb, the more features you stuff into a game, the less complex the individual features are going to get. If all you want out of a game is sneaking around levels and not doing anything else, Thief is very likely going to be the game for you as that is its sole focus. That's just not quite enough for me tho, I want more options at my disposal, even if those individual options are slightly less fleshed out, mostly because they lead to some great mechanical interactions (read: Emergent gameplay). I do love Elder Scrolls games after all, and those are a prime example of games with extreme lack of focus.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Fenixp

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

A game has to know what its about, you can't sit on two chairs and be good at everything. The stealth in Deus Ex and Dishonored is immersion breaking because most of the time someone or other is looking straight at you in broad daylight and should by all rights be screaming for alarm but they continue staring into you as if they've decided that they're not paid enough to see anything that appears above a chest high wall (or in Dishonor's case, anything that moves above the ground floor).

You also have to suspend your disbelief fairly significantly to get immersed in stealth play when it comes to Thief games. It's very apparent that they were as much tech demonstrations as they were games, with their individual aspects overblown way out of proportion to showcase the engine - shadows being these black holes which captured all light and sight of guards, bizarre footwear of the protagonist which made certain floors explode with sound regardless of how carefully he was moving. Add to that guard AI which was not really stellar because you were supposed to avoid them, not get sighted and ... Well, you get Thief. Don't get me wrong, the games are excellent, but let's not pretend they were perfect.

 

On the flip side you can shoot everyone down but since it has to go both ways the violence is often underwhelming and never actually the primary focus of these types of games.

 

So yes, you get more "options" but the design ends up muddy and inconsistent. I found Human Revolution to be overwhelmingly about ego boosting the player, with the rest of the gameworld being fairly helpless against him in almost every situation. I didn't play enough Dishonored to know how much harder it gets later on, but it had the same superhero vibe at the beginning.

Yes, Dishonored definitely does empower the player, there's no doubt about it. It's worth keeping in mind that this is a design goal so it's pretty difficult to list it as an objective disadvantage - as I said, these games are not Thief because they're not attempting to be Thief in the first place.

 

As for the rest of your post - I disagree strongly that this means design of these games is inconsistent. Gunplay/Swordplay transitions smoothly into stealth into calmer sections without really seeing any seams and given the fact they're designed to empower player, these options also make sense.

 

However, it definitely muddies up design, there's no doubt about it. As a rule of thumb, the more features you stuff into a game, the less complex the individual features are going to get. If all you want out of a game is sneaking around levels and not doing anything else, Thief is very likely going to be the game for you as that is its sole focus. That's just not quite enough for me tho, I want more options at my disposal, even if those individual options are slightly less fleshed out, mostly because they lead to some great mechanical interactions (read: Emergent gameplay). I do love Elder Scrolls games after all, and those are a prime example of games with extreme lack of focus.

 

 

Thief is eighteen years older than the new Deus Ex and and fourteen years older than Dishonored. Even so, I see it much better at achieving what it set out to do than the other two on the whole. That is what I consider good design.

 

That said, I'm not criticizing Deus Ex and DIshonored because they're not Thief, I'm critical towards them because they're unconvincing at what they do. I'm more fit to comment on Deus Ex HR since its the only game of the two I completed and it felt underwhelming because it bends over backwards at every juncture just to make the player feel cool.

 

Stealth in Deus Ex HR is bogus - the character model protrudes over cover and is often completely within line of sight of enemies, but hidden because their detection field is more akin to a laser than a cone.  Violence is weak, with the gunplay being somewhat impotent and obviously intended to play second fiddle to stealth and instant kill animations. 

 

Empowerment works when the player feels they've earned the reward through being clever or skilled. It also works when its an upward process and the player's avatar grows in a convincing way. That is not the case in either of these two games - you're empowered because the game simply gives it to you and gimps everyone else - just in case.

 

Not every game has to be from the Dark Souls "kick your face to the curb" school of design, but the core gameplay has to be tight and in a stealth game, the designers should make the stealth part work well and then they can add whatever nonsense they please.

 

I

Edited September 11, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Orogun01]

Satellite Reign

 

This game keeps finding ways to lure me and disappoint me.

I like a challenge but when there are arbitrary rules like one hackable door that allows you to go in but doesn't let your remaining agent go out even though you hacked it then I might get a little mad that my entire plan was ruined by some hack developer who had  a specific idea of how I should play their hacky game.

It is good frustration BTW but I do wish that they had spent more time cleaning up their game and maybe some time reading upon basic game design. Seriously,  all the people I clone have the same bonuses.

 

Edit: Scratch that, it is not even an arbitrary rule is it just a rule that just applied to one mission. I just gone back to the same door and I'm able to leave without even hacking it from the outside. Buggy ****ing mess that this game is.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Orogun01

[Fenixp]

Thief is eighteen years older than the new Deus Ex and and fourteen years older than Dishonored.

Indeed. In Dishonored, I froze time with a power which allows me to do so and moved behind a guard who stood at the edge of a small cliff. I have cut his throat, placed a mine on his back and nudged his body to fall off. When his friends beneath the cliff approach his body to find out what happened, they got sliced in pieces with said mine. It's true that Dishonored came out quite a bit after Thief, and it certainly shows. This example is also why do I prefer more, less polished mechanics to overabundance of focus - they let you come up with a lot more creative solutions to individual problems than tightly focused games, often in ways that developers didn't even quite intend.

 

That said, I'm not criticizing Deus Ex and DIshonored because they're not Thief, I'm critical towards them because they're unconvincing at what they do. I'm more fit to comment on Deus Ex HR since its the only game of the two I completed and it felt underwhelming because it bends over backwards at every juncture just to make the player feel cool.

I would definitely say that Human Revolution has a lot more problems, gameplay-wise, than Dishonored ever did. The cover-based stealth mechanics are especially jarring, true, and I would also agree that at times, it doesn't feel particularly convincing - for more reasons than just gameplay. It's also often lacking in department of mechanical interactions I've been praising in Dishonored just a few paragraphs above. You should probably take my points with a grain of salt tho - for me, Dishonored is a game I've been waiting for ... Basically ever since I played Thief and Deus Ex.

 

With that said, and this also touches upon your other points somewhat, if a game is specifically designed to gratify player and make him feel "cool" as it were, then I'd say that bending its design in such a way that player does feel gratified would be achieving the goals it has set out and is pretty good design as a consequence. You're describing how empowerment works, but it's really a description of how it works for you, specifically.

[sorophx]

tried Divinity Original Sin, and it was exactly as bad as I imagined it would be. the rest of this post will be me venting, mostly, but feel free to point out where I went wrong.

 

anyway, it is supposed to be this great game that everybody likes, the return of the old-school RPG. and I guess that means it's supposed to be badly written and designed to qualify as "old school"?

 

the very first fight after the tutorial dungeon almost kicked my ass. I mean, the enemies were all higher level than my party, they were wiping the floor with the friendly NPCs, and the only reason I survived was because my party leveled up after one of the NPCs managed to kill an enemy, and I got the xp for that kill, instantly regaining all of the HP. then I finally make it into the first quest hub, where I'm tasked with solving a murder. and this is where the stupid really begins to show through...

 

I talk with every named NPC I can find, and the only thing I manage to get out of them is that the victim was probably murdered by his wife. I do several circles talking with every NPC multiple times, but this gets me nowhere.

 

I'm stuck. so I think to myself, "OK, I'll just go outside and look for trouble", but that's not what the game wants, of course. the town is on lockdown, nobody can leave. so now I'm literally stuck. I try to call upon my old-school RPG credentials to figure out what to do next. "you should probably loot the whole town empty, some quest item will inevitably show up in all that trash" my intuition tells me. and I happen to have a character that has lockpicking. only I can't pick any locks, the game won't let me, they're all magically "higher level than your skill"... 

 

the only thing left to do is to dig up corpses at the cemetery or talk to the animals in town. so I finally get a break by doing both: I find out that the victim's body is missing from his grave and his dog tells me he can sniff out the killer if I bring him something belonging to the suspect. great! oh wait... I can't take anything from NPCs' homes.

 

OK, there's a hole in the ground at the cemetery, let's go down it and see what's there. oh, hi there mister skeleton-with-a-flamethrower, let me hit you with my sword... *the party is wiped by the blast, only leaving the mage standing against three skeleton archers* - *uninstall Divinity Original Sin*

 

all of that frustration could've been avoided if the game was designed by an experienced team. instead it felt like playing a mod for NWN made by a first-time modder just learning the ropes. let's just go step by step:

 

1) the fight on the beach: the game throws two casters, 2 damage sponges and a bunch of archers of levels 2 and 3 against a party of 2 randomly picked classes, both level 1. what would be the most common outcome in that fight? probably a lot of reloads. the combat mechanics aren't any good to warrant these odds! I kept struggling to position my rogue exactly behind the enemy because the game doesn't show you where you can or cannot go, you have to drag the mouse and figure it out by trial and error. would it have killed them to add a grid to combat? and then some of the abilities take 3-4 turns to reset, but the flippin' characters don't even live that long at level 1. they had barely over 100 hp combined, and one hit by the enemy would inflict anywhere from 20 to 30 damage. and I only have two healing potions... who the hell designed this encounter?

 

2) the murder mystery quest: now I know I probably missed some obvious step and got stuck because I just didn't look hard enough. but this is the very first quest you get in the game, it's supposed to showcase how the rest of the game will be. if the game is all about multiple possible approaches to solving problems then show me at least two from the start. it should be obvious what to do instantly in a game that doesn't have any quest markers, otherwise the player will just be running in circles - exactly like I was. I got two hints: examine the scene and talk to some officer. did both, and then the information just dried out. if I hadn't played Fallout 2 - read: hadn't had a rich experience of digging up graves - I would've never even picked up that shovel that I found. 

 

and if the part with the victim's dog was obligatory to solve the murder... than that's the worst quest design ever: forcing me to pick a seemingly optional skill to progress in the game is just... unacceptable.

 

3) the cave fight: this is just an obvious way to get the player to reload and come back later. the enemy is guarding the exit from a long narrow corridor, so there's no way of just avoiding him. he immediately spawns 3 additional enemies and proceeds to incinerate whomever from the player's party is closer. he explodes on death, leaving behind a cloud of poison which also detonates, burning and poisoning everyone inside the radius for 4 turns. so unless the party has a couple of ranged characters with high damage of an appropriate type (the thing resisted crushing damage, which made no sense to my RPG brain poisoned by DnD standards) I don't see how this fight can be won without casualties. 

 

that was the last straw...

 

there are many little things I found annoying: like the constant popping up of exclamation marks above my characters' heads, demanding I'd talk to myself for a +1 raise to a random stat, or the quality of the writing, which had be just skipping through these walls of text and reading summaries in the quest log, or that ridiculous rock-paper-scissors mini-game - I cannot imagine ever returning to this game. what a complete waste of time that was...

 

edit: spelling

Edited September 11, 2016 by sorophx

[Hurlshort]

To be fair, Larian has always had 'quirky' writing.  It's bad, but in a campy way.  

[sorophx]

if only writing was the weakest part of D:OS

[HoonDing]

Just click through all the D:OS dialogue quickly.

 

And even the combat is not that great once the 'teleporting barrels lol' gets old.

 

EDIT: Divinity 3 in the style of Dragon's Dogma pls or no buy

Edited September 11, 2016 by HoonDing

[Keyrock]

@sorophx - For me the combat in D: OS is the highlight of the game.  It's certainly not the best turn-based combat system I've ever seen, but I do find it to be pretty solid.  The battles can definitely be challenging, especially if you're not used to the system.  You really need to pay attention to the environment around you and take advantage of barrels, puddles, and other things that can be exploited to damage, debuff, or split up your enemies.  Initiative is of key importance, I always made sure I kept Bairdotr's speed relatively high so that she would regularly be the first one to act in combat, allowing me to use one of the special arrows to stun a key enemy, like a spellcaster or archer, or fire the bouncy arrow (I forget what the skill is called) to hit a bunch of enemies right off the bat.

 

The murder mystery quest, at least for me, was a long term affair.  I wouldn't get too hung up on completing it right away, it has a bunch of steps to it.  Do a bunch of other stuff (there is plenty to do in and around Cyseal) if you're stumped and you may stumble upon something that moves the quest forward in the process.

 

As for the writing, yeah, it's terrible.  At first I found the humor to be a little bit endearing because the game wasn't taking itself all that seriously and there was a bunch of 4th wall breaking and meta jokes and it was "cute" or whatever.  That wore thin quite quickly as the quality of the constant barrage of jokes never evolved past terrible and it got quite grating.

[sorophx]

the thing is I couldn't figure out how to get out of Cyseal, so I decided that it wasn't worth the trouble

 

and you reminded me of something: when I met that ranger girl, she didn't have any weapons on her. so I gave her the only extra weapon I had - a two-handed sword. I couldn't afford any good gear at that point in the game. and I didn't feel like going all around town again and looking for a seller that had a ranged weapon in stock... basically, the starter town is laid out terribly and I got tired of having to walk everywhere 

Edited September 12, 2016 by sorophx

[Drowsy Emperor]

I found the combat tedious and so did my girlfriend so we quit the game relatively quickly. And not just the combat, the game doesn't really motivate you to push forward with anything.

[Keyrock]

the thing is I couldn't figure out how to get out of Cyseal, so I decided that it wasn't worth the trouble

It's been a while, but you can leave even though they warn you you might be too low level.  I think once you speak to the commander or the mayor or the cat dude they will open the gates for you after warning you.  It's been a while so I'm not sure if that information is correct.

[sorophx]

all this talk makes me want to replay Fallout 2

[Keyrock]

and you reminded me of something: when I met that ranger girl, she didn't have any weapons on her. so I gave her the only extra weapon I had - a two-handed sword. I couldn't afford any good gear at that point in the game. and I didn't feel like going all around town again and looking for a seller that had a ranged weapon in stock... basically, the starter town is laid out terribly and I got tired of having to walk everywhere 

She has starting gear you can get back.  I forget where it is, but you can get it back easily.  She has hide armor and a bow.

 

Edit: I think you talk to somebody and they give you her gear back, or it's in a chest nearby or something.  It's been a while.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Keyrock

[Orogun01]

The only problem I had was when I got the portion with the spiders and afterwards and that was only because the game decides to pit you against 20 enemies on a turn based game. Which mean that a lot of the combat was just watching enemies take their turn while I bit my nails that I couldn't do anything.  Other than that people have no reason to complain.

[HoonDing]

Even Blackguards had less torturous turn based combat.

Edited September 12, 2016 by HoonDing

[sorophx]

I have Blackguards, maybe I should give it a go