Things are not nice in Nice

[BruceVC]

Fair enough, but you know Interpol and the various national agencies have agents, informers and intelligence workers, who are Muslim, rooting out (among many things) extremism in private mosques right?

There are plenty of police officers, government clerks, spies and what-have-you working for your safety right now - who are Muslim.

This is true, there would be Muslim informants and members of the Muslim community who do work with authorities around information gathering and extremist attacks

 

Yes work needs to be done but it is true  

[Chilloutman]

Fair enough, but you know Interpol and the various national agencies have agents, informers and intelligence workers, who are Muslim, rooting out (among many things) extremism in private mosques right?

There are plenty of police officers, government clerks, spies and what-have-you working for your safety right now - who are Muslim.

yeah possible, but you can't deny that there are many people who must knew what some of these terrorists were planning, someone have to give them money, someone have to get them shelter, someone have to connect them to black market to get weapons. There is far too many people involved and no-one sad a thing. From this calculation - for each one terrorist there must be at LEAST 10 or more people who knew or were quite aware of what they are going to do. And if you follow news lately there are these actions on daily basis now, heck now it seems its even twice a day. And of course mosques are monitored (at least I hope so) but even than, what are you going to do? In CZ there is VIDEO from mosque where highest muslim authority preaching about segragation, hatered against apostates, beating children to obey muslim doctrine and even having AK in mosque. And guess what - he is being invited into TV shows to preach how islam is religion of peace.

[Rosbjerg]

It's always a great idea to let idiots dig their own grave- we had a similar situation here and the guy made an ass of himself on tv, causing many moderate muslims to speak out against him and his actions.

 

It seems clear though that the only one who really had a network was the Nice attacker, which is always worrying of course.. but let's go with your estimate and that's as you say 10- out of what though, several tens of thousand? I don't think it's fair to assume guilt on the remaining pool of people just because they share their faith. Just like I don't think socialists should be prosecuted for the actions of Bader Meinhoff etc.

 

Of course Islam should be and is criticized for the rather worrying streak of violence committed in it's name, I'm just not comfortable with the blanket generalizations. Especially not when the vast majority of said generalization are really just trying their best to stay low and not get caught in the crossfire.

 

 

The problem just arises when you start assigning blame on association. As that has a tendency to snowball.. Like blaming men for terror, as it's only really men that commit mass murders etc.

[Chilloutman]

It's always a great idea to let idiots dig their own grave- we had a similar situation here and the guy made an ass of himself on tv, causing many moderate muslims to speak out against him and his actions.

 

It seems clear though that the only one who really had a network was the Nice attacker, which is always worrying of course.. but let's go with your estimate and that's as you say 10- out of what though, several tens of thousand? I don't think it's fair to assume guilt on the remaining pool of people just because they share their faith. Just like I don't think socialists should be prosecuted for the actions of Bader Meinhoff etc.

 

Of course Islam should be and is criticized for the rather worrying streak of violence committed in it's name, I'm just not comfortable with the blanket generalizations. Especially not when the vast majority of said generalization are really just trying their best to stay low and not get caught in the crossfire.

 

 

The problem just arises when you start assigning blame on association. As that has a tendency to snowball.. Like blaming men for terror, as it's only really men that commit mass murders etc.

I share your view, but if those actions are taken in mosques in front of dozens of people, you would expect that those 'moderate' ones would call those imams out no? Or are you suggesting that if you go into *insert place of faith or importance for you* and hear such statements you would not stand against it? Sorry but I don't feel something like that happening in muslim communities.

[Malcador]

I want see ONE muslim in Europe which will report that someone is planning terror attack and then I will reevaluate my view.

Kind of unfair to them to think about it that way.

[Chilloutman]

 

I want see ONE muslim in Europe which will report that someone is planning terror attack and then I will reevaluate my view.

Kind of unfair to them to think about it that way.

 

What do you mean?

[Rosbjerg]

I share your view, but if those actions are taken in mosques in front of dozens of people, you would expect that those 'moderate' ones would call those imams out no? Or are you suggesting that if you go into *insert place of faith or importance for you* and hear such statements you would not stand against it? Sorry but I don't feel something like that happening in muslim communities.

 

Have you been to mosques? or are you basing this on what people who also haven't been to mosques say?

Because I have and I talk with moderate Muslims- who are extremely worried about radicalization etc. 

 

 

It's like saying that your average dude in a church should be vigilant and report any signs of infiltration from the baptist church of westboro or a Jehovas Witness.. It doesn't really happen like that. They are pretty separate and the recruiting happens in a few select mosques that moderates stear very very clear of - and authorities are already aware of.

 

But yeah you of course have the recruiters who intermingle and invite the young and impressionable types into the lion's den.. If we really want to stop giving them propaganda fuel then we should not ask each and every Muslim to distrust his neighbors and friends (guess what happens then?). We should perhaps stop bombing the Middle East to the stone age and actually start dealing with the region like a potential ally, helping them deal with their massive problems with books and know how.. That's would be a figurative bomb under the recruitment effort. Rather than a literal one under the peace effort.

[Malcador]

 

 

I want see ONE muslim in Europe which will report that someone is planning terror attack and then I will reevaluate my view.

Kind of unfair to them to think about it that way.

What do you mean?

Just that the reasons for lack of reporting are the same for no one knowing of another killer. Also, doubt the police are going to advertise that kind of information.

 

In an odd way these radical mosques are useful to hang around, flame for moths. I know Britain used them in such a way, leave the imam alone and just watch people coming to him.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Malcador

[Guard Dog]

I wish I could say I was shocked to read the details: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3708394/Two-men-armed-knives-people-hostage-French-church.html

 

If they tried that at the First Baptist Church in Covington TN they would have been shot a dozen times over before passing the first pew.

[Chilloutman]

 

I share your view, but if those actions are taken in mosques in front of dozens of people, you would expect that those 'moderate' ones would call those imams out no? Or are you suggesting that if you go into *insert place of faith or importance for you* and hear such statements you would not stand against it? Sorry but I don't feel something like that happening in muslim communities.

 

Have you been to mosques? or are you basing this on what people who also haven't been to mosques say?

Because I have and I talk with moderate Muslims- who are extremely worried about radicalization etc. 

 

 

It's like saying that your average dude in a church should be vigilant and report any signs of infiltration from the baptist church of westboro or a Jehovas Witness.. It doesn't really happen like that. They are pretty separate and the recruiting happens in a few select mosques that moderates stear very very clear of - and authorities are already aware of.

 

But yeah you of course have the recruiters who intermingle and invite the young and impressionable types into the lion's den.. If we really want to stop giving them propaganda fuel then we should not ask each and every Muslim to distrust his neighbors and friends (guess what happens then?). We should perhaps stop bombing the Middle East to the stone age and actually start dealing with the region like a potential ally, helping them deal with their massive problems with books and know how.. That's would be a figurative bomb under the recruitment effort. Rather than a literal one under the peace effort.

 

Yes I have spoken with few muslims who are long time integrated in EU. And they are scared by mass immigration of muslims because those integrated are becoming minority. Just look how many of newly arrived were protesting in UK to get sharia law legalized. They are scared what is creeping into their life style. They can't talk to other muslims because they dont know if they will not be 'reported' and then excluded from their community or even family. I really dont fear terrorists - they are stupid. They are actually making it harden for true enemy. Whole point was to have as much muslims in EU which are not secular that those secular will be scared to act. And then our own pride will be our doom - democracy. Just look at Turkey

Edited July 26, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

I want see ONE muslim in Europe which will report that someone is planning terror attack and then I will reevaluate my view.

Kind of unfair to them to think about it that way.

 

What do you mean?

 

Just that the reasons for lack of reporting are the same for no one knowing of another killer. Also, doubt the police are going to advertise that kind of information.

 

In an odd way these radical mosques are useful to hang around, flame for moths. I know Britain used them in such a way, leave the imam alone and just watch people coming to him.

 

agree, but again, its interchanging cause with consequences. Would not be easier for everybody to just not allow those who are radical or lets say orthodox in at all?

[Rosbjerg]

Problem is how do you tell them apart? What if the radicalise after they migrate here? Legally it's problematic in the extreme to reject someone on assumed association etc.

[Chilloutman]

Problem is how do you tell them apart? What if the radicalise after they migrate here? Legally it's problematic in the extreme to reject someone on assumed association etc.

Strange that they are not getting into US, they probably have better immigration policies. There is also truth/lie detectors (I know they are not 100% correct) but surly its not that inhuman to ask immigration on detector if he thinks that killing apostates is ok, if its ok to beat your wife etc. Also as we know that most radicals are from poor background so maybe let in only these which have assumptions that will find decent job? I dont have all answers but its still better to do something than just sit on our hands and turn a blind eye on all of these problems. I dont want to end up in situation where I have to choose between dictator or islamic ruler

[Wrath of Dagon]

Less immigration = more assimilation.

[213374U]

I dont want to end up in situation where I have to choose between dictator or islamic ruler

You think you have a say in the matter? That's rich.

[BruceVC]

 

Problem is how do you tell them apart? What if the radicalise after they migrate here? Legally it's problematic in the extreme to reject someone on assumed association etc.

Strange that they are not getting into US, they probably have better immigration policies. There is also truth/lie detectors (I know they are not 100% correct) but surly its not that inhuman to ask immigration on detector if he thinks that killing apostates is ok, if its ok to beat your wife etc. Also as we know that most radicals are from poor background so maybe let in only these which have assumptions that will find decent job? I dont have all answers but its still better to do something than just sit on our hands and turn a blind eye on all of these problems. I dont want to end up in situation where I have to choose between dictator or islamic ruler

 

"Islamic ruler " ...  

 

That is never going to happen in established Western democracies....there is no chance of that. 

[Darkpriest]

I wish I could say I was shocked to read the details: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3708394/Two-men-armed-knives-people-hostage-French-church.html

 

If they tried that at the First Baptist Church in Covington TN they would have been shot a dozen times over before passing the first pew.

 

This will only get worse. It's been getting worse over the last decade, and it will be getting worse. I remember times after attacks in Madrid. "Do not worry, we will get this resolved" and now we have attacks increasing in frequency.

[Malcador]

I wish I could say I was shocked to read the details: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3708394/Two-men-armed-knives-people-hostage-French-church.html

 

If they tried that at the First Baptist Church in Covington TN they would have been shot a dozen times over before passing the first pew.

Something odd about attending church packing heat.

[ShadySands]

Gunliness is next to godliness 

 

Yeah, no. That one got away from me

[Namutree]

 

I wish I could say I was shocked to read the details: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3708394/Two-men-armed-knives-people-hostage-French-church.html

 

If they tried that at the First Baptist Church in Covington TN they would have been shot a dozen times over before passing the first pew.

Something odd about attending church packing heat.

 

The point is to not live by the sword; living by the gun has a John Wayne quality that I'm sure God appreciates.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Problem is how do you tell them apart? What if the radicalise after they migrate here? Legally it's problematic in the extreme to reject someone on assumed association etc.

Strange that they are not getting into US, they probably have better immigration policies. There is also truth/lie detectors (I know they are not 100% correct) but surly its not that inhuman to ask immigration on detector if he thinks that killing apostates is ok, if its ok to beat your wife etc. Also as we know that most radicals are from poor background so maybe let in only these which have assumptions that will find decent job? I dont have all answers but its still better to do something than just sit on our hands and turn a blind eye on all of these problems. I dont want to end up in situation where I have to choose between dictator or islamic ruler

 

"Islamic ruler " ...  

 

That is never going to happen in established Western democracies....there is no chance of that. 

 

 

Power of the plebs and poor? that's never going to happen in our established Monarchy (EU A.D. 1400)

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Problem is how do you tell them apart? What if the radicalise after they migrate here? Legally it's problematic in the extreme to reject someone on assumed association etc.

Strange that they are not getting into US, they probably have better immigration policies. There is also truth/lie detectors (I know they are not 100% correct) but surly its not that inhuman to ask immigration on detector if he thinks that killing apostates is ok, if its ok to beat your wife etc. Also as we know that most radicals are from poor background so maybe let in only these which have assumptions that will find decent job? I dont have all answers but its still better to do something than just sit on our hands and turn a blind eye on all of these problems. I dont want to end up in situation where I have to choose between dictator or islamic ruler

 

"Islamic ruler " ...  

 

That is never going to happen in established Western democracies....there is no chance of that. 

 

 

Power of the plebs and poor? that's never going to happen in our established Monarchy (EU A.D. 1400)

 

But the only realistic and conceivable way you will ever have Islamic governments  in Western countries like the EU is if the citizens of those countries vote for an Islamic political party

 

And generally the only time citizens of   particular country would vote for an Islamic political party is if the citizens are Muslims or believe in the Islamic rule of law, so we are talking about Sharia Law

 

And if you consider just the push back on these forums from people living in the EU against the perceived threat of the  Islamification of the EU its highly unlikely the average citizens of the EU will convert or support Islamic law

 

It would be like me asking you " Dark why dont you convert to Islam "?  Of course you wont for  a variety of reasons 

[HoonDing]

Radical Islam - Taqiyya= "Moderate" Islam

 

Harsh but fair

[Hassat Hunter]

Kinda odd Mosques are protected but churches aren't...

 

Also the entire area knowing about the whereabouts of the Paris attacker for MONTHS and no-one saying a thing kinda defies the whole discussion of the last 2 pages. Apparently it's a no-no to report the murderer of hundreds to the government of the nation you live in for all your life cause... religion. Uhuh.

On the other hand we got plenty of people of Turkish origin here who just love to snitch and boycot Gülen-supporters to "their government". You know the one at the entire other side of Europe?

 

That kind of stuff makes it VERY hard for me to believe it's "just a few radicals" or integration is actually going properly.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Hassat Hunter

[Rosbjerg]

All right, there's a ****load of bias hidden under that remark HH, I hope you see that.. For one you focus solely on what 4-5 instances and extrapolate a general view on how every single Muslim regards democracy in relation to his/her religion. Where it's obviously and extremely complex and personal thing for each and every one- simply based on the many political parties and interest groups etc who seem to disagree .. a lot .. Are the majority anti-democratic? Perhaps, I don't really know, but it seems unfair to conclude that on such a small sample size.

 

By your definition of 'integration' it also seems clear you mean complete assimilation, where the immigrant must give up all personal beliefs that are incompatible with your idea of what our society is.

 

And on top of that - I hold views that would be regarded as extremely subversive and disruptive to the status quo by the current leading party of my country.. Am I then anti-democratic? Am I then a threat, in response to the fact that others who have held a similar view in the past have committed terrorism?

 

I think it's cool and essential that we actively criticize anti-democratic movements and sentiments - there's just historical precedence for being careful of not associating everyone in a group with the extremism it can produce. Especially when that association becomes politically motivated.