Should the UK leave the EU?

[213374U]

Huh, Ive never seen a zipgun with more than one shot. I would be interested in seeing a picture of it if it ever becomes available.

 

Doesn't need to be a zip gun. Starter pistols can be modified to fire steel ball bearings, which can kill. I don't know about the UK but you can buy those over here without a permit. Not exactly "hand-made", but close enough.

[Chilloutman]

it was defo politically motivated, it doens't mean he was not mentally ill. Still, go Brexit!

[Raithe]

Of course there's that wonderful push of meme's at the moment along the lines of showing Nigel Farage campaigning for Brexit with tags along the lines of "Remember, All racists will be voting to leave" with the suggestion that anyone who wants to vote leave is inherently a racist.

 

Way to go for that psych manipulation.

I have to admit, Farage supporting an issue does kind of have that default "do the opposite" for a lot of people, so I'm surprised I haven't seen that approach used earlier in the campaign.

[Raithe]

Only to be followed by...

 

Buzzfeed - Naval armada's clash on the thames

 

Evening Standard - Nigel Farage and Bob Geldof in River Battle

 

BBC - British politics in flotilla clash

 

 

Mr Farage led a flotilla of fishing boats up the Thames to urge Parliament take back control of British waters.

But his Brexit armada was greeted by a rival Remain fleet carrying Mr Geldof.

The rock star yelled that the UKIP leader was "no fisherman's friend".

Mr Farage accused Mr Geldof of "mocking" impoverished fishermen.

 

The UKIP leader's flotilla, organised by Fishing for Leave, left the Kent port of Ramsgate early on Friday and reached Westminster during Prime Minister's Questions at 12:30 BST.

 

A handful of dinghies and other vessels bearing In flags sought to "intercept" the Leave flotilla as it passed under Tower Bridge, with the vessel carrying former pop star Mr Geldof playing the song "The In Crowd" over loud speakers.

There were reports of brief, light-hearted skirmishes, including the exchange of hose fire and a police launch got involved to keep them apart on the Thames outside Parliament while Prime Minister's Questions took place inside.

 

Addressing Mr Farage over a PA system as his boat, the Sarpedon, pulled alongside the boat carrying the UKIP leader, Mr Geldof called Mr Farage a "fraud".

"Here are the facts about fishing. One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings. Four, you are no fisherman's friend.

"You were on the European Parliament Fishing Committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings."

 

Mr Farage branded Mr Geldof counter protest "just disgusting... disgraceful" and said he wanted the UK to get back the rights to its own fish.

"We used to protest against the establishment, now the establishment protests against us," he said.

"What multi-millionaire Mr Geldof did was to show his absolute contempt for the men and women who have come here from right across the UK asking, demanding, to be listened to as their communities are destroyed by the commons fisheries policy.

"As a spectacle, I think it is pretty disgraceful. And then what he did was show the depth of his ignorance... We are only allowed to catch 20% by value of the fish that swim in what should be our territorial waters. He clearly does not understand that."

 

A group of 30 Leave boats set off before first light, stopping at Southend and Gravesend to pick up passengers before mooring at the Pool of London at 11:00 BST, having passed underneath Tower Bridge.

 

Police vessels and the harbour master were in attendance as the rival vessels circled on the river outside the Houses of Parliament, where the final PMQs before the referendum was taking place.

The Port of London Authority said it had spoken to both sides about "excessive noise" and the risk of disturbance to other river users but that the episode had passed off without any safety issues.

 

Mr Farage rejected claims it was a publicity stunt, saying it was a "full-throttled protest" against what he claimed was the "destruction" of the UK's fishing industry by EU membership.

"There are now many harbours without a single commercial vessel...Compare and contrast all of this with Norway who control all fishing stocks up to two hundred miles within the North Sea and has a booming commercial and angling tourism industry."

 

But Greenpeace said the problem lay not with the EU but the concentration of UK fishing quotas in the hands of a few large operators - some of which it said were part of the flotilla - and successive governments failure to address this.

"The root of the problem lies in London, not Brussels," said the campaign group's director John Sauven. "The distribution of fishing rights within the UK's fleet is entirely the responsibility of the UK's fisheries minister."

"Brexit cheerleaders like Nigel Farage are cynically exploiting the legitimate anger of many British fishermen for political gain."

 

This view was echoed by Labour, which said being in the EU was good for British fishermen as it gave them access to Europe's fishing waters and their boats were able to land and sell their catch in any EU country.

"To protect fish stocks and the livelihoods that depend upon them, we need a European-wide collective approach," said shadow environment secretary Kerry McCarthy, calling for reform of rather than exit from the Common Fisheries Policy.

"We cannot risk a return to the bad old days where fish stocks were declining so fast that there were species on the verge of extinction."

Pressed on the matter at prime minister's questions, David Cameron said British fishermen could not hope to get a better deal outside the EU than they do now.

[BruceVC]

 

Only to be followed by...

 

Buzzfeed - Naval armada's clash on the thames

 

Evening Standard - Nigel Farage and Bob Geldof in River Battle

 

BBC - British politics in flotilla clash

 

 

Mr Farage led a flotilla of fishing boats up the Thames to urge Parliament take back control of British waters.

But his Brexit armada was greeted by a rival Remain fleet carrying Mr Geldof.

The rock star yelled that the UKIP leader was "no fisherman's friend".

Mr Farage accused Mr Geldof of "mocking" impoverished fishermen.

 

The UKIP leader's flotilla, organised by Fishing for Leave, left the Kent port of Ramsgate early on Friday and reached Westminster during Prime Minister's Questions at 12:30 BST.

 

A handful of dinghies and other vessels bearing In flags sought to "intercept" the Leave flotilla as it passed under Tower Bridge, with the vessel carrying former pop star Mr Geldof playing the song "The In Crowd" over loud speakers.

There were reports of brief, light-hearted skirmishes, including the exchange of hose fire and a police launch got involved to keep them apart on the Thames outside Parliament while Prime Minister's Questions took place inside.

 

Addressing Mr Farage over a PA system as his boat, the Sarpedon, pulled alongside the boat carrying the UKIP leader, Mr Geldof called Mr Farage a "fraud".

"Here are the facts about fishing. One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings. Four, you are no fisherman's friend.

"You were on the European Parliament Fishing Committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings."

 

Mr Farage branded Mr Geldof counter protest "just disgusting... disgraceful" and said he wanted the UK to get back the rights to its own fish.

"We used to protest against the establishment, now the establishment protests against us," he said.

"What multi-millionaire Mr Geldof did was to show his absolute contempt for the men and women who have come here from right across the UK asking, demanding, to be listened to as their communities are destroyed by the commons fisheries policy.

"As a spectacle, I think it is pretty disgraceful. And then what he did was show the depth of his ignorance... We are only allowed to catch 20% by value of the fish that swim in what should be our territorial waters. He clearly does not understand that."

 

A group of 30 Leave boats set off before first light, stopping at Southend and Gravesend to pick up passengers before mooring at the Pool of London at 11:00 BST, having passed underneath Tower Bridge.

 

Police vessels and the harbour master were in attendance as the rival vessels circled on the river outside the Houses of Parliament, where the final PMQs before the referendum was taking place.

The Port of London Authority said it had spoken to both sides about "excessive noise" and the risk of disturbance to other river users but that the episode had passed off without any safety issues.

 

Mr Farage rejected claims it was a publicity stunt, saying it was a "full-throttled protest" against what he claimed was the "destruction" of the UK's fishing industry by EU membership.

"There are now many harbours without a single commercial vessel...Compare and contrast all of this with Norway who control all fishing stocks up to two hundred miles within the North Sea and has a booming commercial and angling tourism industry."

 

But Greenpeace said the problem lay not with the EU but the concentration of UK fishing quotas in the hands of a few large operators - some of which it said were part of the flotilla - and successive governments failure to address this.

"The root of the problem lies in London, not Brussels," said the campaign group's director John Sauven. "The distribution of fishing rights within the UK's fleet is entirely the responsibility of the UK's fisheries minister."

"Brexit cheerleaders like Nigel Farage are cynically exploiting the legitimate anger of many British fishermen for political gain."

 

This view was echoed by Labour, which said being in the EU was good for British fishermen as it gave them access to Europe's fishing waters and their boats were able to land and sell their catch in any EU country.

"To protect fish stocks and the livelihoods that depend upon them, we need a European-wide collective approach," said shadow environment secretary Kerry McCarthy, calling for reform of rather than exit from the Common Fisheries Policy.

"We cannot risk a return to the bad old days where fish stocks were declining so fast that there were species on the verge of extinction."

Pressed on the matter at prime minister's questions, David Cameron said British fishermen could not hope to get a better deal outside the EU than they do now.

 

I heard on Sky from certain commentators  that the UK fishing industry has been decimated or rather severely impacted  by the EU and there rules but reading this article now I'm not sure if you see what Greenpeace and Geldof have to say the issue seems to lie in the UK?

[Leferd]

 

Not quite Nelson at Trafalgar, but still...

[JadedWolf]

As someone who actually admires many aspects of British culture, and who at the same time thinks that Europe really does need to work together if we don't want our future to be dictated by other foreign powers, it pains me to think that maybe GB really doesn't have a future in Europe. It's so close in the polls that I wonder that even if they do win, could that really be considered a mandate for staying? Say the Remain camp wins but with 52% of the vote and with 48% against, could that really be considered to be a strong mandate for staying in the E.U.?

Edited June 17, 2016 by JadedWolf

[Raithe]

As someone who actually admires many aspects of British culture, and who at the same time thinks that Europe really does need to work together if we don't want our future to be dictated by other foreign powers, it pains me to think that maybe GB really doesn't have a future in Europe. It's so close in the polls that I wonder that even if they do win, could that really be considered a mandate for staying? Say the Remain camp wins but with 52% of the vote and with 48% against, could that really be considered to be a strong mandate for staying in the E.U.?

 

No matter what happens there's going to be some heavy governmental shifts occurring. Half the tories seem to be against Cameron now, and if the Remain wins, it's highly likely that there'll be a vote of no confidence held which Cameron is unlikely to win. Plus, he's said he'll resign if the Brexit side wins the referendum.

So it's good odds either way there'll be a new election come winter.

[Zoraptor]

Cameron saying he'll resign makes me wonder if he's secretly for an exit. Especially since Osborne would have to go as well if that happened.

[BruceVC]

As someone who actually admires many aspects of British culture, and who at the same time thinks that Europe really does need to work together if we don't want our future to be dictated by other foreign powers, it pains me to think that maybe GB really doesn't have a future in Europe. It's so close in the polls that I wonder that even if they do win, could that really be considered a mandate for staying? Say the Remain camp wins but with 52% of the vote and with 48% against, could that really be considered to be a strong mandate for staying in the E.U.?

I appreciate your concern but dont believe the fear mongering, I dont want the UK to leave but its not as serious as it may seem

 

Lets say the UK does leave, we will see 12-18 months of economic instability but then things will stabilize. The UK will still be part of NATO and it will negotiate new trade deals. The EU will persevere but it will obviously miss the UK substantial financial contribution but it will survive 

 

Which foreign powers concern you ?

[Raithe]

And now Putin is wading in claiming that Cameron is attempting to blackmail the EU

msn - Vladimir Putin states Cameron may have called referendum to blackmail Europe

 

 

 

Vladimir Putin has waded into the Brexit debate by suggesting that David Cameron may have called the EU referendum "to blackmail Europe" or "scare someone".

The Russian president, in his first comments on the issue questioned why the Prime Minister had called a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union in the first place.

 

"There is a great problem with Brexit, why did he initiate this vote in the first place? Why did he do that? So he wanted to blackmail Europe or to scare someone, what was the goal if he was against?" Mr Putin said, according to the Press Association, on Friday night.

He denied suggestions that Russia would benefit from Britain's possible decision to leave the European Union.

Speaking at a meeting with the leaders of major international news agencies, Mr Putin said he had an opinion on the matter but would not voice it because it is not "our business at all - it is the business of the people of the UK".

 

"Who can predict it? No one can predict it. I have my own opinion on this matter - whether it is good or bad - but I will refrain from giving the forecast. I think it would be improper on my part to do that.

"Whatever I say will be interpreted to the benefit of either side, that's the business of the EU and the people of the UK.

"Different experts have different estimates about whether Brexit will benefit Great Britain or not, some say it will be to the detriment and some say the EU will be more stable and stronger.

"In the UK itself for example - they are going down in boats saying how hard it is to live with restrictions in fishing. Yes they have a problem, well there are some benefits in other sectors. If you have to weigh all these things it is very complicated."

 

Barack Obama, the US president, strongly supports Britain remaining in the EU. In April, he said Britain would go "to the back of the queue" and would not be able to strike a trade deal with America "any time soon" if it leaves the European Union.

 

Writing in The Daily Telegraph, he said: "As citizens of the United Kingdom take stock of their relationship with the EU, you should be proud that the EU has helped spread British values and practices – democracy, the rule of law, open markets – across the continent and to its periphery.

"The European Union doesn’t moderate British influence – it magnifies it."

 

 

[Raithe]

Bloomberg - Britain's Elite ignore the masses at their peril

 

 

This past weekend, I found myself in the British borough of Luton, pondering a British exit from the European Union. "How did you find yourself in Luton?" you will ask, and I will reply, "That is a long story, and alas, a very dull one, so let’s just proceed upon the assumption that I was indeed in Luton for good and sufficient reasons." And why was I pondering Brexit? Because the penultimate chapter of this dull story involved many hours spent in a horrible third-tier European airport with middle-class Britons heading home from their holidays.

 

The airport was short on seats and power outlets even before flight-delayed travelers were stacked eight-deep along the floors. Perhaps a dozen of us middle-aged folk had wrested a single power outlet from the teenagers who had tethered themselves to all the other sources of battery-life-giving energy in the vicinity. We huddled around this small electric flame in the manner of travelers everywhere, taking what sustenance we could, drinking wine and swapping stories of our homelands. I was asked to explain Donald Trump. And by way of getting my own back, I naturally asked about the referendum on Brexit, which is now just days away.

 

The folks I talked to were from all over Britain, but they had middle age in common as well as, mostly, membership in the petit bourgeoisie. What did they think about leaving the EU?

"I still don’t know how I’m going to vote," said an adult-education teacher from the Midlands, who then proceeded to deliver a long and earnest speech about the cost of providing social services to immigrants, which suggested that she wasn’t really so unsure. Her sentiments were echoed by other people I talked to during that endless layover.

 

These weren't racist diatribes; no one mentioned race or nationality, and, in fact, they were very sympathetic to the plight of immigrants. They just didn’t want to have to accept them into their country -- operative words "have to." The dominant tone was what is often called compassion fatigue, and their arguments were not unreasonable.

 

Riding a refugee-crowded ferry back from the Greek island of Lesvos last fall, my heart broke for every one of the families I saw. But I couldn’t help but ask myself just how many such people Europe could absorb in a short period of time. The people in the airport were asking themselves the same question, and the answer they were getting was "no more, please."

Around 1:30 Monday morning, a budget jet brought me to Luton, where I stayed overnight. The next leg of my travel did not begin until late afternoon, and so I took the opportunity to walk around the area near the Mall Luton, which turned out to be a very good place to think about Brexit.

 

Luton is a city of about 200,000 people on the outskirts of London. It was once known for its manufacture of hats, and in 1905, Vauxhall Motors opened a manufacturing plant in Luton. The company stopped making passenger cars there in 2002, and the town is now -- like so many places in Europe and America -- looking for its post-industrial future. EasyJet, a budget airline, is based there, but as you so often find in similar cities in the U.S., the biggest employers are the local government and the local hospital. It has also had a dramatic shift in population. The Luton council estimates that "between 50% and 75% of the population would not have lived in Luton or not have been born at the time of the 2001 Census." It is now minority white British, and only barely majority white.

 

You can see it in the area around the mall. It’s not a notably prosperous place: multiple dollar stores, not much in the way of upscale retail. The Duke of Clarence pub is closed, having apparently run afoul of the local constabulary; one Polish food store appeared to be doing a land-office business. I wandered into several off-license shops in search of batteries and found that all of them appeared to cater to a significant foreign-born clientele. I bought some Polish sausage and pastry at an off-license, some Indian dumplings and Thai noodles at a couple of food trucks, and I sat on a bench in the mall, listening to people from three continents chat with each other in more than half a dozen languages, none of which I spoke.

As an American, this did not strike me as odd; this is what our cities have been like for centuries, particularly on the coasts. One group of immigrants moves in, creates an enclave, then gets rich, assimilates and moves out, making way for the next group that will throw a little of their food, their language and their customs into our vast melting pot. But this is not normal in most of the world. Nor is it necessarily welcome.

 

Most places in Britain are not like Luton, of course. But that’s not quite the point. Anti-immigration sentiment in the U.S. is often found in places that don’t have enormous immigrant populations, and wonks who proclaim this to be irrational seem not to grasp that those people may be looking at the places that have been transformed by immigration and responding with a fervent "No, thank you." There’s a lot to be gained from globalism, the mixing of two or more cultures into something new. But something specific and local and much-loved is inevitably lost at the same time, and the people who feel that loss most keenly are the inward-looking people who stay in place, not internationalist elites.

 

So it’s not that my food was bad -- it was all quite good -- or that there was anything wrong with the immigrants serving and eating it. They all looked like quite nice people. But it was all very different from traditional British food, traditional British people. And no matter how hard we try to argue that it doesn’t matter, it does -- politically, if in no other way. Especially when things aren’t going all that well for the natives.

 

Somehow, over the last half-century, Western elites managed to convince themselves that nationalism was not real. Perhaps it had been real in the past, like cholera and telegraph machines, but now that we were smarter and more modern, it would be forgotten in the due course of time as better ideas supplanted it.

 

That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.

 

It’s therefore not entirely surprising that people are reacting strongly against the EU, the epitome of an elite institution: a technocratic bureaucracy designed to remove many questions from the democratic control of voters in the constituent countries. Elites can earnestly explain that a British exit will be very costly to Britain (true), that many of the promises made on Brexit’s behalf are patently ridiculous (also true), that leaving will create all sorts of security problems and also cost the masses many things they like, such as breezing through passport control en route to their cheap continental holidays. Elites can even be right about all of those things. They still shouldn’t be too shocked when ordinary people respond just as Republican primary voters did to their own establishment last spring: "But you see, I don’t trust you anymore."

 

In some ways, the modernity that we thought was supposed to wash nationalism away on the tide of history made things worse for the cause of mass migration. For the first few centuries of its existence, America had a chronic labor shortage, which eased any frictions with new arrivals. We also lacked a modern welfare state, to which low-skilled immigrants are likely to be net costs rather than net contributors. I heard the strain on the National Health Service cited multiple times this weekend as a sore spot for Brexiteers, and though the "Remain" campaign says "You’ve got it all wrong, the problem is Conservative budget cuts," this rather aggressively misses the point: When things are hard, immigrants compete with natives for scarce government resources, and the natives don’t like the competition.

 

I don't know whether Britain will end up leaving the EU; based on my conversations this weekend, and the polls, I’d put the chances at slightly above 50 percent. But that’s not a very educated guess, and I wouldn’t stake anything important, like money or the future of my country, on its correctness. Even if Remain wins, however, elites will face the question of what to do next. They can decide that they’ve skated by the crisis and may now return to business as usual while they wait for the populist storms to blow over. But there’s a real danger in doing so, in Britain or in any of the other countries that are currently being swept by populist movements. The storm may indeed pass, but it may blow up into a hurricane -- and the majority may go shopping for a new elite, one they trust to take care of people like them.

[BruceVC]

 

And now Putin is wading in claiming that Cameron is attempting to blackmail the EU

msn - Vladimir Putin states Cameron may have called referendum to blackmail Europe

 

 

 

Vladimir Putin has waded into the Brexit debate by suggesting that David Cameron may have called the EU referendum "to blackmail Europe" or "scare someone".

The Russian president, in his first comments on the issue questioned why the Prime Minister had called a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union in the first place.

 

"There is a great problem with Brexit, why did he initiate this vote in the first place? Why did he do that? So he wanted to blackmail Europe or to scare someone, what was the goal if he was against?" Mr Putin said, according to the Press Association, on Friday night.

He denied suggestions that Russia would benefit from Britain's possible decision to leave the European Union.

Speaking at a meeting with the leaders of major international news agencies, Mr Putin said he had an opinion on the matter but would not voice it because it is not "our business at all - it is the business of the people of the UK".

 

"Who can predict it? No one can predict it. I have my own opinion on this matter - whether it is good or bad - but I will refrain from giving the forecast. I think it would be improper on my part to do that.

"Whatever I say will be interpreted to the benefit of either side, that's the business of the EU and the people of the UK.

"Different experts have different estimates about whether Brexit will benefit Great Britain or not, some say it will be to the detriment and some say the EU will be more stable and stronger.

"In the UK itself for example - they are going down in boats saying how hard it is to live with restrictions in fishing. Yes they have a problem, well there are some benefits in other sectors. If you have to weigh all these things it is very complicated."

 

Barack Obama, the US president, strongly supports Britain remaining in the EU. In April, he said Britain would go "to the back of the queue" and would not be able to strike a trade deal with America "any time soon" if it leaves the European Union.

 

Writing in The Daily Telegraph, he said: "As citizens of the United Kingdom take stock of their relationship with the EU, you should be proud that the EU has helped spread British values and practices – democracy, the rule of law, open markets – across the continent and to its periphery.

"The European Union doesn’t moderate British influence – it magnifies it."

 

 

As usual Putin is completely wrong with his assessment of what motivates Western countries 

 

You see his view also highlights how different Russia and the West are, Putin thinks this is  what Cameron wants ...he cant understand  a political reality where its the actual UK citizens who want this vote 

 

He thinks this is driven all from Cameron which is what any authoritarian would assume 

[HoonDing]

 

 

The Lib-Lab-Cons have conspired with a foreign power, the EU, and are all thereby guilty of treason. They have sold Britain, which is the fifth largest economy, illegally into increasing slavery inside the EU dictatorship. Those responsible should be hung by the neck until dead.

Gordon Ferguson

 

With all this vitriol and demonizing of political opponents, not a big wonder some nutter goes full Breivik.

[Raithe]

This is the big problem at the moment. Hell, the last half a year it's gotten that way.

 

The Leave side seems to be pushing the demonising of the Remain with that treason , selling us into slavery, etc etc.,

While the Remain is demonising the idea of Leave as racist, isolationist and the rest of it.

 

It's becoming very much a "If you vote Leave, you're saying you're a racist. If you vote Remain, you just want to be a looked after slave."

[BruceVC]

This is the big problem at the moment. Hell, the last half a year it's gotten that way.

 

The Leave side seems to be pushing the demonising of the Remain with that treason , selling us into slavery, etc etc.,

While the Remain is demonising the idea of Leave as racist, isolationist and the rest of it.

 

It's becoming very much a "If you vote Leave, you're saying you're a racist. If you vote Remain, you just want to be a looked after slave."

Come on dont take it seriously, its hyperbole and people using spurious guilt tactics  

[Raithe]

 

Come on dont take it seriously, its hyperbole and people using spurious guilt tactics  

 

 

I find it more irritating than anything. And while you may say its hyperbole and not to take it seriously..  That is pretty much the campaigns as they've been run for the last few months.

You don't get informed decisions when EVERY side is spending more time demonising the opposition rather than having valid discussion.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Raithe

[BruceVC]

 

 

Come on dont take it seriously, its hyperbole and people using spurious guilt tactics  

 

 

I find it more irritating than anything. And while you may say its hyperbole and not to take it seriously..  That is pretty much the campaigns as they've been run for the last few months.

You don't get informed decisions when EVERY side is spending more time demonising the opposition rather than having valid discussion.

 

I understand your frustration, one of the main reasons for all this hyperbole is no one actually knows what the outcome will  be

 

So economists and other prominent public figures are operating in an unknown reality ..hence the grandstanding and extreme views 

[Valsuelm]

Referring to the EU as an "authoritarian regime" is a bit of a stretch......

 

Only about as much of a stretch a 800 lb person can make in any given direction.

[Valsuelm]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pyfurxrEGw

[Raithe]

First we had a Operation fear;
Then we had a Operation petty name calling;
Now we have Operation Pretending it's only the other side who has behaved appallingly.

This is just the most pathetic political debate I've ever witnessed.

[BruceVC]

First we had a Operation fear;

Then we had a Operation petty name calling;

Now we have Operation Pretending it's only the other side who has behaved appallingly.

This is just the most pathetic political debate I've ever witnessed.

As you know I'm very vocal about my support for things like the West. But I understand that  not everyone, even a resident of a country, may want to debate politics 

 

But Im glad you are invested in this thread as it is important  but it also highlights how divisive the whole BREXIT campaign has been

 

So my family as I mentioned have ties to the UK so you and I are in the same boat, I believe in the EU but its a trading block and even if the UK leaves it wont impact any military alliances 

 

So my first loyalty has to be to the UK and what the citizens decide. The UK is in a unique position to leave the EU and to recover and sustain itself economically but this will take 10-18 months 

 

But if the UK leaves these are the things that will 90 %  happen, so when they do happen dont stress and think  OMG !! We made a destructive and fatal decision. This is to be expected but some newspapers will make  a big deal about it 

 

• If the UK leaves the pound will suffer some loss as low risk investors pull out and some speculators sell currency. Maybe 10-18 % maximum. But remember the UK economic fundamentals are solid within 12 months it will recover 
• Yes certain corporations are indeed holding back on investment to see how things work out....this is also normal so dont see this as serious
• Will the EU allow the UK access to the free trade zone ?Impossible to predict but the UK will prudently renegotiate other deals
• You may hear stories of " international companies leaving the UK " . I dont buy this one for one second, why do business make major investments in the UK? Its because of London and the reality of the UK being an excellent overall choice. These business wont now just pack up and leave ..in fact the large ones will see this as a way to renegotiate things like tax with the UK

 

Finally to our friends who are part of the EU dont think if the UK leaves this is the end of the EU dream, absolutely not. The EU will continue to be a successful  union but with less overall revenue which it will address

 

And new trade deals will happen with the UK who will always be part of Europe in principle 

[JadedWolf]

Finally to our friends who are part of the EU dont think if the UK leaves this is the end of the EU dream, absolutely not. The EU will continue to be a successful  union but with less overall revenue which it will address

 

 

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps...

[BruceVC]

 

Finally to our friends who are part of the EU dont think if the UK leaves this is the end of the EU dream, absolutely not. The EU will continue to be a successful  union but with less overall revenue which it will address

 

 

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps...

 

I  am very glad you are asking these questions, sometimes I feel you guys in the EU just dont care or realize how beneficial the EU is 

 

So I agree, its not a nice thought to think of someone like the UK leaving but the reality is no other country can just leave because of the single currency and the fact the majority of countries in the EU have had to sacrifice old financial structures to integrate. This is also normal and what was required

 

You may not believe me but I promise you its very relevant....there is no leaving the EU unless a country is prepared for a economic meltdown....thats why the UK is different 

 

Now being forced to stay may not seem ideal but it is, so people will  complain but no one will leave. 

 

To be honest I hope we see  a reaffirming of commitment and loyalty from some EU members, like PIGS countries,  and they contribute towards the deficit from the UK leaving

 

But to be fair you cant expect the East Europeans to fix the gap but never forget the loyalty of the Scandinavian countries

 

The EU will adapt and survive but yes it will be a initial revenue impact  

[JadedWolf]

 

 

Finally to our friends who are part of the EU dont think if the UK leaves this is the end of the EU dream, absolutely not. The EU will continue to be a successful  union but with less overall revenue which it will address

 

 

Yes, well, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland and Denmark may feel quite a bit more uncomfortable in an E.U. without GB to balance out Germany and France, so I wouldn't be too sure things will be business as usual. Especially since GB's contributions to the budget will fall away, and that money will have to come from somewhere. And it sure won't be coming from those nice Eastern European chaps...

 

I  am very glad you are asking these questions, sometimes I feel you guys in the EU just dont care or realize how beneficial the EU is 

 

So I agree, its not a nice thought to think of someone like the UK leaving but the reality is no other country can just leave because of the single currency and the fact the majority of countries in the EU have had to sacrifice old financial structures to integrate. This is also normal and what was required

 

You may not believe me but I promise you its very relevant....there is no leaving the EU unless a country is prepared for a economic meltdown....thats why the UK is different 

 

Now being forced to stay may not seem ideal but it is, so people will  complain but no one will leave. 

 

To be honest I hope we see  a reaffirming of commitment and loyalty from some EU members, like PIGS countries,  and they contribute towards the deficit from the UK leaving

 

But to be fair you cant expect the East Europeans to fix the gap but never forget the loyalty of the Scandinavian countries

 

The EU will adapt and survive but yes it will be a initial revenue impact  

 

 

I can't speak for other countries, but as someone who lives in the Netherlands I can assure you that you shouldn't underestimate the possibility of people actually voting parties in power that want to leave the E.U., no matter how bad the economic consequences would be, if the people in charge of the E.U. don't start offering solutions rather than more problems real soon.

 

Whatever happens, things are going to need to change.