Should the UK leave the EU?

[Meshugger]

Personally I always preferred Jerusalem, or maybe something by Vaughan Williams or Elgar:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8VH0sbEU20

 

Beautiful. But Vaughan Williams you say? Have at it:

 

 

[Zoraptor]

 

I realize this is a hard topic not to derail with everyone's all time favorite subject "How Muslims are the reason for everything bad in the world" ...

 

But let's try shall we? 

 

Fair enough. 

 

RUUUUULE BRITANNIA, RUUUULE THE WAAAVES; BRITONS NEVER WILLLL BE SLAAAAVES!

 

amirite fellas?

 

 

'Fraid not. You've left out a second 'Brittania' after the comma and a couple of 'never's after the first one. And I'm fairly sure it's 'shall' rather than 'will' too.

[BruceVC]

Let's just be frank here: The primary reasons people voted for Brexit is to stop Muslim migration. 

I cant be frank about that statement because its definitely not the only reason for Brexit, its only part of the controlling borders and access to the UK

 

Also I'm not sure if you aware of it but that statement can also be unintentionally insulting to the millions of people who live in the UK who supported BREXIT. That comment takes the numerous reasons for leaving the EU and debases it to a simple " British people wanted to leave the EU because they are racists and dont like Muslims" 

 

I have heard  that sentiment numerous times over the last 48 hours on various South Africans radio shows  but the average South African due to 50 years of Apartheid has very little knowledge of social or political realities outside SA....and I am  not   being condescending the lack of insight is from our past

 

But you seem to be  a  clever person who understands how to find information , I'm not sure why  you haven't spent 3-5 minutes doing a bit of research. Read this link, I have summarized the relevant part to your question 

 

What were their reasons for wanting the UK to leave?

They said Britain was being held back by the EU, which they said imposed too many rules on business and charged billions of pounds a year in membership fees for little in return. They also wanted Britain to take back full control of its borders and reduce the number of people coming here to live and/or work.

One of the main principles of EU membership is "free movement", which means you don't need to get a visa to go and live in another EU country. The Leave campaign also objected to the idea of "ever closer union" and what they see as moves towards the creation of a "United States of Europe".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

 

Finally I am well aware of the various problems that exist within the Muslim world

 

Its not just radical Islam but most Muslim countries need to become more progressive and be more inclusive with there citizens around economic opportunities

 

The reality is the only reason we are seeing the majority of refugees is that  they started coming from the Syrian civil war 

 

And the Syrian war was caused by the Arab Spring which was basically a movement where the Muslim citizens of various countries wanted more rights and a greater say in the economy

 

So ironically the West and places like the UK has inherited the responsibility of having to integrate millions of people  from conflicts that the West is not responsible for  (unless you a conspiracy theorist who thinks the West caused the Arab Spring )

 

And whats worst for me is how many countries in the Middle East like the Sunni states  have refused to house any immigrants ....and these are Muslim countries. Yet people like you and others make these cavalier comments like " the UK is racist  and doesnt want to accept refugees " 

 

 

But fellow Muslim countries dont want to take responsibility.....you see the inconsistency

 

But end of the day you cannot generalize about the whole Muslim community and say things like " Muslims are warmongers and want to conquer the West , its unhelpful and unfair as the majority of Muslims want the same thing everyone  else wants ....peace and stability to raise there families "  

Edited June 25, 2016 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

 

 

I realize this is a hard topic not to derail with everyone's all time favorite subject "How Muslims are the reason for everything bad in the world" ...

 

But let's try shall we? 

 

Fair enough. 

 

RUUUUULE BRITANNIA, RUUUULE THE WAAAVES; BRITONS NEVER WILLLL BE SLAAAAVES!

 

amirite fellas?

 

 

'Fraid not. You've left out a second 'Brittania' after the comma and a couple of 'never's after the first one. And I'm fairly sure it's 'shall' rather than 'will' too.

 

 

Good heavens, that was quite unbecoming of me. I beg your pardon.

[Hiro Protagonist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XYBIUGJvzs

[Hiro Protagonist]

And there's already a petition demanding a second referendum to be done with fresh rules that if the results are less than 60% or so there should be a continual re-do of referendum until there's a clear "winning majority"...

 

Brexit isn't legitimate because of the turnout and low margin for victory.

 

[Orogun01]

Saying that the establishment would abide by the will of the people rather than those who control the whole apparatus was a stretch. Am glad that leaders are feeling that the sword of Damocles is still at their necks, the unrest resulting from the continued disregard suffered could very well blow up into a revolution if the situation continues to deteriorate.

[Darkpriest]

Bruce, but i guess you do consider, that the most recent and glaring inability of EU to protect its interest by protecting its borders from a mass migration of unknown mass of people with dubious interests IS one of the major factors that won that campaign for Leave voters.

 

It was a prime and very visible example of how EU governing institutions regard the opinions of various member countries and their citizens. Politicians made a HUGE error by deciding about an influx of new migrants from outside of EU without asking member states about their citizen's opinion. One thing is to allow several hundred or even a couple of thousands of people a year, and completely different is an "invasion" of several million of people who have zero respect for the local culture. You just don't make such commitments when the citizens of your countries are still recovering from various effects of a large financial crisis a few years back.

 

I am more than 100% sure that we would not have this result if not for the migration crisis. If your citizens are bombarded with visuals of how the Calais tunnel to UK is being stormed almost on a daily basis by illegal immigrants, who for some reason trashed the whole area near the tunnel, what do you expect them to think?

 

EU needs to take a few steps back and rethink its policies. It was already hard enough to make these countries, each with over a thousand years of cultural background and conflicts, to co-operate on various initiatives. EU really did not need getting involved with more "social justice / socialist / humanity's saviors" projects. It needs to stabilize its economy, make sure that first and foremost the citizens of EU can actually see the benefits of being in the EU. We really can't be forcing on the people to change their vision of their own culture and country, which was developed for many generations within several years. We still have people who remember the WW2 and EU really helped to heal the Europe and make nations see value in co-operation with each other instead of warring with each other, but it still requires more work. Why would you import more issues when you have not solved the past issues? it's asking for a disaster.

[Hassat Hunter]

Still amused at this independence talk by the English of all people. Not only of it being overdramatic by a small power but just from history's view

 

Shame the next time I visit the lady in the sandwich shop will be a scummy chav rather than a cute Pole.

Still amused at this united Europe talk by the German of all people. Not only of it being overdramatic by a small power but just from history's view

 

Shame the next time I visit the lady in the bradwurst shop she will be a scummy German still.

[Darkpriest]

Saying that the establishment would abide by the will of the people rather than those who control the whole apparatus was a stretch. Am glad that leaders are feeling that the sword of Damocles is still at their necks, the unrest resulting from the continued disregard suffered could very well blow up into a revolution if the situation continues to deteriorate.

 

They cannot really not go with the decision of the most democratic vote, vote of its citizens. But this just shows the weakness of democracy. A vote of a drunkard bum is worth exactly the same as a vote of a noble prize winning scientist. Now, who would you rather have building the country for you? Direct democracy is flawed and even Greeks did not have it that way.

[Hassat Hunter]

Always interesting to see if someone's own view is shown by vote it's "the will of the people", but if they turn they other way? Well, "people are not educated enough to vote.", "democracy is a failure" or "the unlittered masses won now. If only highly educated people and well thinking people (like me, obviously) voted, this would be so different"

...

Every single time again.

[Zoraptor]

18-24 year old turn out was ~36% for the vote. Bit of a rum old do, blaming more senior people for actually turning up to vote when your group couldn't even be bothered to.
 

Good heavens, that was quite unbecoming of me. I beg your pardon.

That's quite all right, my man, it's only your first mistake. Any more though and your tea and biscuit, real ale or tweed jacket privileges may have to be reconsidered.

[Oerwinde]

Always interesting to see if someone's own view is shown by vote it's "the will of the people", but if they turn they other way? Well, "people are not educated enough to vote.", "democracy is a failure" or "the unlittered masses won now. If only highly educated people and well thinking people (like me, obviously) voted, this would be so different"

...

Every single time again.

I would be ok with the vote being taken from those who don't pay taxes. Voting is essentially choosing who decides how your taxes are spent, so only allowing those who supply those taxes a say in how they are spent makes sense to me.

[Malcador]

 

Still amused at this independence talk by the English of all people. Not only of it being overdramatic by a small power but just from history's view

 

Shame the next time I visit the lady in the sandwich shop will be a scummy chav rather than a cute Pole.

Still amused at this united Europe talk by the German of all people. Not only of it being overdramatic by a small power but just from history's view

 

Shame the next time I visit the lady in the bradwurst shop she will be a scummy German still.

 

 

Ah, haven't seen any comments by Merkel of late. But it is a bit of a laugh watching posts by people claiming Britain is now free.  First world oppression, I suppose.

[Malcador]

I would be ok with the vote being taken from those who don't pay taxes. Voting is essentially choosing who decides how your taxes are spent, so only allowing those who supply those taxes a say in how they are spent makes sense to me.

Are these students, SAHM/Hs or the poor really messing up democracy for you ?

[Hiro Protagonist]

I would be ok with the vote being taken from those who don't pay taxes. Voting is essentially choosing who decides how your taxes are spent, so only allowing those who supply those taxes a say in how they are spent makes sense to me.

 

Not sure what you mean by people not paying taxes. Are you talking about the 1%? I'm employed and pay less tax than most people who earn half of what I earn due to tax minimisation. My girlfriend earns more than me and paid no income tax last year. But then she does have a couple of accountants helping her to do her tax.

 

If you're talking about the unemployed, that's a slippery slope. The unemployed do pay taxes when they buy food, clothing, petrol. Also, someone unemployed for the last few weeks may be employed next month.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist

[HoonDing]

More than 10 million ppl didn't even bother voting. They're ultimately the wisest.

[Oerwinde]

 

 

I would be ok with the vote being taken from those who don't pay taxes. Voting is essentially choosing who decides how your taxes are spent, so only allowing those who supply those taxes a say in how they are spent makes sense to me.

Not sure what you mean by people not paying taxes. Are you talking about the 1%? I'm employed and pay less tax than most people who earn half of what I earn due to tax minimisation. My girlfriend earns more than me and paid no income tax last year. But then she does have a couple of accountants helping her to do her tax.

 

If you're talking about the unemployed, that's a slippery slope. The unemployed do pay taxes when they buy food, clothing, petrol. Also, someone unemployed for the last few weeks may be employed next month.

I didn't even think of sales tax. That changes things. What I was thinking was anyone who didn't pay income tax during the term prior to the election. And yeah that means people who managed to avoid paying any tax due to creative accounting.

 

But yeah, sales tax makes that whole idea moot.

[Volourn]

"British people wanted to leave the EU because they are racists and dont like Muslims" 

 

Hating Muslims is no more racist than hating Christians. HOLY MOLY. WHY CNA';T PEOPLE GET THAT SIMPLE CONCEPT!?!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Volourn

[ktchong]

[Hiro Protagonist]

Peter Hitchens nearly cracking a smile...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCvl2T_o5o

[ktchong]

Rotherham voted 68-32 for Leave.

 

Rotherham has had enough of Muslim rape gangs.

[213374U]

18-24 year old turn out was ~36% for the vote. Bit of a rum old do, blaming more senior people for actually turning up to vote when your group couldn't even be bothered to.

What?! You mean votes on Twitter weren't counted? What's the world coming to?

 

Oh, I am so pissed right now. I'm going to write the angriest 140-character post ever, just you watch.

 

edit: oh great. He's at it again.

Edited June 26, 2016 by 213374U

[BruceVC]

Bruce, but i guess you do consider, that the most recent and glaring inability of EU to protect its interest by protecting its borders from a mass migration of unknown mass of people with dubious interests IS one of the major factors that won that campaign for Leave voters.

 

It was a prime and very visible example of how EU governing institutions regard the opinions of various member countries and their citizens. Politicians made a HUGE error by deciding about an influx of new migrants from outside of EU without asking member states about their citizen's opinion. One thing is to allow several hundred or even a couple of thousands of people a year, and completely different is an "invasion" of several million of people who have zero respect for the local culture. You just don't make such commitments when the citizens of your countries are still recovering from various effects of a large financial crisis a few years back.

 

I am more than 100% sure that we would not have this result if not for the migration crisis. If your citizens are bombarded with visuals of how the Calais tunnel to UK is being stormed almost on a daily basis by illegal immigrants, who for some reason trashed the whole area near the tunnel, what do you expect them to think?

 

EU needs to take a few steps back and rethink its policies. It was already hard enough to make these countries, each with over a thousand years of cultural background and conflicts, to co-operate on various initiatives. EU really did not need getting involved with more "social justice / socialist / humanity's saviors" projects. It needs to stabilize its economy, make sure that first and foremost the citizens of EU can actually see the benefits of being in the EU. We really can't be forcing on the people to change their vision of their own culture and country, which was developed for many generations within several years. We still have people who remember the WW2 and EU really helped to heal the Europe and make nations see value in co-operation with each other instead of warring with each other, but it still requires more work. Why would you import more issues when you have not solved the past issues? it's asking for a disaster.

Dark I'm going to respond to this in detail

 

Question : Do you care if you EU survives or fails and please be honest and detailed if possible 

[Valsuelm]

 

c) It was almost exclusively Christians (albeit not all of them, for quite some time), mostly of the Protestant flavor that fought tirelessly, bled, and died for the liberties which you now enjoy. Not Muslims, Not Jews, not Animists, Buddhists, Hindus, or whatever else. Christians.

 

Historical context, please. The forward Christian thinkers that fought for religious tolerance and the separation of Church and state were a product of the aftermath of the incredibly bloody massacres that were perpetrated in Europe by Christians, for -on the surface- religious reasons, for over a hundred years. It is not possible to understand modern Western culture without the religion wars of the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

So yeah, Christians. But only after they figured out that maybe, maybe, burning the heretic, killing the mutant, purging the unclean wasn't the best way to go about it.

 

How about we try to foster the same kind of self-reflection within Islam rather than going full-on Der Stürmer at the drop of a hat?

 

---

 

Regarding the Muslim rape gangs. While appalling, it's a drop in the ocean, sadly. Look up the numbers of child sex trafficking involving Eastern Europe. Hint: the mafias controlling that trade are run by white kingpins, and directed mostly at Western European white customers.

 

edit: sure guv'nor, no more talk of Muslims. For all the good it does anyway...

 

 

In the vast majority of the posts I ever make on any given topic on this forum, historical context is considered (frankly, hence my point of view on many things as I have deep knowledge of the history (I generally don't opine when I don't know, I listen)). The one you reference, is not one of the exceptions.

 

I'm more than well aware of the situations which you bring up, however, in the context in which I was writing, they are a combination of acknowledged and irrelevant to the point I was making.

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Valsuelm