[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

[arisboeuf]

How come no1 Made (Based on this Data) an Excel calculator for This? Pretty annoying to do it all by hands. Or Can some1 Share His selfmade?

[Halfadozensixes]

How come no1 Made (Based on this Data) an Excel calculator for This? Pretty annoying to do it all by hands. Or Can some1 Share His selfmade?

Maxquest has shared all the speed calculations, so there is nothing stopping you from making an excel spreadsheet if you would like.

[Boeroer]

Before complaining, look at MaxQuest's signature!

 

He made an excellent webapp. Far better than crappy spreadsheets.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Boeroer

[arisboeuf]

first of all sorry im toto stupid to realize it was on the very top of his post lol. too big

ok now i can calculate very good the attack speed

so let's say i have 200 frames and 10-20 dmg (average 15); do you count it this way: "my dps is 15/200"?
(you probably see, im a big PoE noob)

 

also do we know anything about enemy DRs?

[MaxQuest]

so let's say i have 200 frames and 10-20 dmg (average 15); do you count it this way: "my dps is 15/200"?

Vs 0 DR and assuming that all attacks were resolved as HIT, yes, your auto-attack dps will be 15/200 damage-per-frame, or 450/200 damage-per-second.

 

Vs higher DR (that is not covered by DR penetration) it's more complicated, as at least 20% of (non-lash) damage will always go through.

For example you hit an enemy with 10DR:

10 -> 2

11 -> 2.2

12 -> 2.4

13 -> 3

14 -> 4

15 -> 5

16 -> 6

17 -> 7

18 -> 8

19 -> 9

20 -> 10

 

58.6/11 = 5.327

 

So your average 15 vs 0 DR, becomes 5.327 vs 10 DR.

That's for HITs.

And it becomes more complicated if we start taking misses, grazes and crits into account, their damage modifiers, and also attack quality conversions: graze-to-hit, hit-to-crit and so on.

 

also do we know anything about enemy DRs?

For the main game, there is this table. 

For expansions through, there is no list I am aware of. Although you can take a look into in-game bestiary; and unlock the entries if need be via console (iroll20s -> UnlockBestiary).

Edited June 1, 2017 by MaxQuest

[drithius]

Just now stumbled upon this thread.  SO INCREDIBLY USEFUL!   Thank you!

[limaxophobiacq]

Anyone know what 'type' of attack speed the speed bonus from Spelltongues attack speed drain is? After looking around on the attack speed calculator I saw I could get quite fast attack speed with Spelltongue + Dragons Maw while still wearing Vambraces and having Vulnerable Attack (in my quest to give up neither defense, burst damage with HoF, or sustained damage), but that's assuming it stacks multiplicatively with Frenzy and Bloodlust like Gauntlets of Swift Action.

[MaxQuest]

The Spelltongue bonus is tricky.

 

When you hit the enemy, you get a Spelltongue Buff, and the target is affected by Spelltongue Debuff.

 

Spelltongue Buff belongs to AttackSpeedMult category and it stacks with everything. (and yeap, it stacks multiplicatively with Frenzy, Bloodlust and Gauntlets of Swift Action)

Also since it is a buff, it basically affects both weapons (if you dual-wield), and spellcasting speed as well.

 

There is a problem though, if you durganize your Spelltongue, it will stop applying the Buff completely; and will keep only debuffing the enemy. (see related bug report).

 

P.S. Atm the workaround is:

- keep Spelltongue non-durganized.

- make few attacks with it

- switch to other weapons

Edited July 29, 2017 by MaxQuest

[limaxophobiacq]

There is a problem though, if you durganize your Spelltongue, it will stop applying the Buff completely

 

Welp.

[AlexKidd]

Many thanks for this handy tool.

 

Now let say I wanted to make the stacking rules even more confusing, and modded a modal aura to reduce the armor penalties (random balance suggestions are also welcome).

 

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

 

 

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

 

 

[MaxQuest]

(random balance suggestions are also welcome)

I've got a few...:

- Allow cipher to cast Pain Block and Going Between on himself

- Allow cipher to cast Amplified Wave on charmed targets

- Mind Wave prone duration was stealhtly nerfed 5s => 3s. Imho it should be 4s.

- Mind Wave visual cone originates from caster. Should be from target.

- Mind Blades is quite weak in practice: early on there is a high chance to miss/graze which will stop it's propagation.

 

- Make Frenzy instant. It's quite annoying to have to wait for it's animation before using BB/HoF. Not to mention that AI tends to use Frenzy AFTER Barbaric Blow.

- Reduce lvl requirement for rogue's Sap from 11 -> 7 or 9.

- Buff Dirty Fighting: 10% -> 15%. This will increase the extra crit chance from 5% to 7.5%.

- Make Vielo Vidorio speed buff, affect Pallegina as well

 

- Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter

- Ranger's Thorny Roots: single instance of 15 slash + 15 pierce damage -> 5 slash + 10 pierce per 3s

 

- Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush

- Hold the Line talent: +1 engagement => +1 engagement and +1 to endurance-to-hp coefficient OR +200 health.

 

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

Uhh. This -10% armor speed penalty from ZC will definitely stack with Armored Grace (ofc the finaly penalty still won't go below zero).

 

As for stacking with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer's Grip it's hard to say. And it's better to test it.

For example:

- take a naked character with 3 DEX

- equip him in durganized hide armor

- give him two sabres/swords/maces/warhammers

- affect him with this modded Zealous Charge aura

- drink DAoM potion, and watch him attacking

 

If ZC stacks with DurganizedArmor, you will have:

- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 0 frames recovery

 

And if they don't stack:

- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 6.3 frames recovery (you will be able to notice a quick line running for 0.2 seconds; if not you can use fraps)

 

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

No, Armored Grace does not affect reloading duration in PoE1. It probably will in Deadfire though. Edited September 18, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AlexKidd]

Scratch that, I used your tool to check in-game:

 

 

It stacks, but I am not sure how to interpeter that GetArmorSpeedFactor: Eder in the example is wearing 50% plate, and has -20% Confident Aim

[AlexKidd]

Hah you ninja reply, nice timing.

 

- random suggestions: oh my, I meant about zealot charge only Good ones though, I still have to mod ciphers but I definitely missed frenzy cd and vielo vidorio not working on Paly (really? damn weird) So far I just made her base duration 6->10s, its existence also made me reconsider the first zealous charge implementation of +%AtkSpeed.

 

I'm going through many edits atm, and hate every moment of my UABE career. We're going to get decent modding tools for PoE2 right? RIGHT?!?

 

- I'm going to use your tool, never toyed with frame checkers.

 

- Ok so Armored Grace doesn't work for reload, but the same property applied to modal does?

[MaxQuest]

It stacks, but I am not sure how to interpeter that GetArmorSpeedFactor: Eder in the example is wearing 50% plate, and has -20% Confident Aim

You probably meant Armored Grace)

 

The default ArmorSpeedFactor is 1.

When you wear plate you get: 1 - 0.5 = 0.5

Taking Armored Grace results in: 1 - 0.5 + 0.2 = 0.7

And with extra -10% armor speed penalty: 1 - 0.5 + 0.2 + 0.1 = 0.8

 

Later on the game adds (ArmorSpeedFactor - 1) to the recovery coefficient.

 

P.S. As expected, it stacks with Armored Grace. The question is: will it stack with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer bonus.

 

---

I'm going through many edits atm, and hate every moment of my UABE career. We're going to get decent modding tools for PoE2 right? RIGHT?!?

I wish... but Josh has mentioned extracting the stats and storing them in xml format, so at least that will be much easier to edit.

 

I just hope that if there will still be unity3d assets, they will keep them "small" as in PoE1, and won't aggregate as they did in Tyranny.

 

- Ok so Armored Grace doesn't work for reload, but the same property applied to modal does?

No. Armor penalties / penalty reductions do not apply to reloading duration in PoE1.

 

but I definitely missed frenzy cd and vielo vidorio not working on Paly (really? damn weird)

Yeah, Pallegina herself does not benefit from the +20% attack speed buff. Also while I was initially fond of this ability, I've quickly found that it gets suppressed by a lot of things and is useful mostly for party rogues, as they don't have frenzy, time parasite, daom spell.

 

random suggestions: oh my, I meant about zealot charge only

Make it 15% instead of 10% Edited September 18, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

As far as I know armor penalties don't affect reloading, only recovery. So Armored Grace and such can't have any effect here.

[AlexKidd]

Yes, I definitely meant that

 

Thank for the explanation, brainfart moment.

 

 

OT:

 

 

Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush

 

 

One of my first edits actually, back then I was feeling optimistic enough to make it a soulbound weapon before the lack of modding tools killed my mood. I settled to this:

 

 

 

Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter

 

 

And that's an example of why I'm damn reluctant about making anything public, too many controversial approaches to a single player game. I'm a old BG/NWN tryhard and too many per-encounter stuff goes against my desire of having to balance resources between rests. Heck I made HoF/Charge/Sacred Immolation 2/rest, people would riot Seriously, having low-level abilities per-encounter are okay, they help defining classes without letting them auto-attack the whole time; it's just when you have 10+ per-encounter skills that every fight tends to be approached with the same routine.

 

/OT

 

[AlexKidd]

Josh has mentioned extracting the stats and storing them in xml format

Hey that's good news, I'm used to xml from Civ games^^. Even if a Near Infinity successor would be a dream...

No. Armor penalties / penalty reductions do not apply to reloading duration in PoE1.

duh, I skipped the fine print somewhere looks like. Then I just edit ZC description again

while I was initially fond of this ability, I've quickly found that it gets suppressed by a lot of things and is useful mostly for party rogues, as they don't have frenzy, time parasite, daom spell.

I came to the same conclusion while looking at the hastening exhortation, made that one a +50% (still 3/rest); VV seems okay for my poverty/minimal rests runs and is cheap early game, beside making it last a lil longer not sure what's needed there.

It looks like all orders have one "oomph" defining skill and one that can be safely skipped/retrained out though, definitely worth focus on that... after my other 247289 priorities

Make it 15% instead of 10%

15% aoe vs 20% self with Confident Aim Armored Grace, wouldn't be too much? Or you feel AG is weak as well?

 

Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making...

Edited September 18, 2017 by AlexKidd

[MaxQuest]

I am always reluctant when I have to use something per-rest, unless I am 100% that the party will rest after the fight.

When I am looking at Binding Roots... it's either:

- do I really want to use a per-rest resource in in this easy fight? or

- ok this is a boss fight, but the ability is to weak to even get casted

 

 

As for Durance staff: that's great ... but making it priest-only, ohh.. there goes my intent to use it on melee cipher or barbarian)

 

---

I came to the same conclusion while looking at the hastening exhosrtation, made that one a +50% (still 3/rest); VV seems okay for my poverty/minimal rests runs and is cheap early game, beside making it last a lil longer not sure what's needed there.

Make it 15% instead of 10%

15% aoe vs 20% self with Confident Aim Armored Grace, wouldn't be too much? Or you feel AG is weak as well?

 

Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making...

 

Armored Grace is great as is. And a major role in that plays the fact that it stacks with everything. Also it has no opportunity cost.

 

While Zealous Charge does have such a cost - as you can't use Zealous Focus / Endurance at the same time. Also, ZC comes with aura radius. At the same time quite often you would like to place your squishies at 10-12 range, because distance is used in target preferences estimations. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AlexKidd]

I am always reluctant when I have to use something per-rest, unless I am 100% that the party will rest after the fight.

When I am looking at Binding Roots... it's either:

- do I really want to use a per-rest resource in in this easy fight? or

- ok this is a boss fight, but the ability is to weak to even get casted

I think up to level 9, with no-game changing abilities, a per-rest option is actually okay, so would probably try that. I have to be honest though, I never played a ranger on PoE so a bit clueless here I'm probably one of the few people happy about the max party limit of 5 in Deadfire... 6 feels clunky and 6+pet (or more!) is too much for me

As for Durance staff: that's great ... but making it priest-only, ohh.. there goes my intent to use it on melee cipher or barbarian)

I give with one hand... and take away with the other It's nice for the Magran's feat to work with that but having it usable by anybody would probably make it the best weapon ever. At least can roleplay some player-made priest stealing it. Heck I toyed with making it undroppable but that made it impossible to switch weapon set, quite sad.

Armored Grace is great as is. And a major role in that plays the fact that it stacks with everything. Also it has no opportunity cost.

 

While Zealous Charge does have such a cost - as you can't use Zealous Focus / Endurance at the same time. Also, ZC comes with aura radius. At the same time quite often you would like to place your squishies at 10-12 range, because distance is used in target preferences estimations.

I'd say that then the opportunity cost of Armored Grace is not being able to take Clear Out at the same level, or something you skipped earlier, and if those picks are that much inferior to AG, then it's about buffing them a lil or tone down the latter. With the aura being a defining ability of the Paladin on the other hand, I can be more generous with buffs there.

 

 

Too much OT now, about that Community Balance Patch...

Edited September 18, 2017 by AlexKidd

[AlexKidd]

 

 

Test done, -ArmorPen modal stacks with durgan refined armor (that's with a breastplate - base 0.6 ArmorSpeedFactor), or Pilf's gloves, not both (well that would have been obvious, if only I checked your tool earlier).

[MaxQuest]

Am I understanding it right?:

0.6 - base

0.7 - with just ZC

0.85 - with ZC and DurganizedArmor

0.85 - with ZC and DurganizedArmor and Pilferer Gloves

 

Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

 

 

Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making...

Indeed I had such an idea.

Wanted to gauge first how useful will community find those bug fixes, and collect feedback.

So far I've decided to check/fix/tweak stuff that affects my party directly; as it's quite time consuming.

 

P.S. Btw, when you write OT, do you mean OnTopic or OffTopic?)

Edited September 18, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AlexKidd]

Am I understanding it right?

yes

Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

yes

P.S. Btw, when you write OT, do you mean OnTopic or OffTopic?)

yes, I mean, Off Topic. And when you type ), do you mean ?

 

 

 

Edit:

 

Wanted to gauge first how useful will community find those bug fixes, and collect feedback.

Very. I already halved Dragon Trashed damage And it's still good I rolled my eyes a bit at the 'total overhaul' comment, wonder how my stuff would rate. Now toying a bit with having different phrase count requirement for invocations belonging to the same tier, and generally aiming at having a class that doesn't just do 2-3 things good and is left on autopilot /rant.

Edited September 18, 2017 by AlexKidd

[MaxQuest]

 

Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

yes

 

Great)

 

And when you type ), do you mean ?

Unless there is an opening bracket before it, it means that I smile, yes) But not from ear to ear like this one: Rather like this one:

 

Very. I already halved Dragon Trashed damage And it's still good I rolled my eyes a bit at the 'total overhaul' comment, wonder how my stuff would rate.

Hah, calling it an overhaul was a big stretch.

 

Now toying a bit with having different phrase count requirement for invocations belonging to the same tier, and generally aiming at having a class that doesn't just do 2-3 things good and is left on autopilot /rant.

I was always thinking that it would be great if chanter started at 1, instead of 0 chants count. Edited September 18, 2017 by MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

I was always thinking that it would be great if chanter started at 1, instead of 0 chants count.

 

It's actually kind of odd that they don't. For every phrase after the first you get your chant point as soon as you start it, but the first phrase doesn't give you a chant point at all.

[Lampros]

It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand!