What You Did Today

[Raithe]

And prepare for the revenge of the fifth.

 

Although there is a certain argument that its Revenge of the Sixth, not  the Fifth.  Or does the revenge get both days?

 

And condolences TN.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Raithe

[Gfted1]

That stinks, sorry to hear that TN. Best wishes for your neice!

[Leferd]

That sucks, TN. My condolences.

[BruceVC]

South Africa is such a unique and interesting model of how a country is structured after something like Apartheid and we face unusual challengers 

 

We really are unique in a political and social sense, for example can you think of another country where 

 

• A minority group( 10 % ) controlled the majority ( 90 % ) for 50 years
• Then the system ends and the majority becomes the government
• 22 years into the new political dispensation even thought the majority is in charge the minority has most of the economic opportunities and for the majority many of them still are unemployed or have low end jobs 
• The minority  consists of about 20 % who are actually relevant in the economy....the rest of the minority are not really relevant and spend time complaining and whining
• But despite this you still have  the majority of black South Africans who dont blame the whites,arent angry  and say things like " we must be nice to white people " 
• Yet  the fortunate situation that  white people really find themselves in is due to  Mandela  as he said to all the black people who suffered for 50 years   "  we must be nice to white people" 

 

And yet you have stories like this from selfish and ungrateful whites 

 

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/an-open-letter-of-apology-from-matttheunissen-2017866

 

 

And he thinks an apology is enough....he is a disgrace, I wish we could jail this type of person

Edited May 8, 2016 by BruceVC

[Oerwinde]

You wish you could jail people who say something stupid on facebook? Those would be some crowded jails.

[Leferd]

Bruce, there's obviously a vast gulf between what you think is appropriate and inappropriate between S.A. and the U.S and the realities.

 

In the U.S., making such a post would potentially get you stigmatized and could get you all sort of grief in your personal life; potentially lose you your job (depending on the sector); and suffer through all sorts of harassment  --emotional and physical. You'd probably need protection. However, you're not going to jail. First Amendment --free speech.

 

You can be a racist jackass on Facebook, and suffer the consequence of posting it...but not go to jail.

 

This dude was dumb --and knowing the situation in S.A.  --he obviously should not have written it for obvious reasons. But to me, getting incarcerated for expressing unfiltered opinions (that are not threatening murder, crime, or the violent overthrow of government) is a violation of basic human rights in a free and open democracy.

 

[BruceVC]

You wish you could jail people who say something stupid on facebook? Those would be some crowded jails.

 

 

Bruce, there's obviously a vast gulf between what you think is appropriate and inappropriate between S.A. and the U.S and the realities.

 

In the U.S., making such a post would potentially get you stigmatized and could get you all sort of grief in your personal life; potentially lose you your job (depending on the sector); and suffer through all sorts of harassment  --emotional and physical. You'd probably need protection. However, you're not going to jail. First Amendment --free speech.

 

You can be a racist jackass on Facebook, and suffer the consequence of posting it...but not go to jail.

 

This dude was dumb --and knowing the situation in S.A.  --he obviously should not have written it for obvious reasons. But to me, getting incarcerated for expressing unfiltered opinions (that are not threatening murder, crime, or the violent overthrow of government) is a violation of basic human rights in a free and open democracy.

Yes I know this is a extreme point by me, its not law its just my idea

 

For you guys I respect the reality you live in, freedom of speech is important to your way of life and in most countries you would never send someone to jail for what they say

 

But you must understand the reality of South Africa. We have several unique and real social and historical challengers that could undermine the entire transformation of the country ...I dont mean we will end up in the civil war but I mean an entire collapse of the economy 

 

Now racism is part of this and these types of comments are part of that, its been 22 years and many white people are part of the transformation but we have an economic reality where the majority of black South Africans are simply not  part of it 

 

There is a real success story with the growing black middle class and many stories of transformation but I would say they represent maybe 35 % of the total number of black people.

 

Now I am part of the white people in SA who has a good job but is also part of the transformation, most black people who are part of the economically disenfranchised 65 % have become stoical and accept this reality

 

But they are susceptible to populist movements and there is always a slight risk that if a perception gets created  that white people are still racist this  could lead to extreme economic policies like Nationalization....which means the entire economy will collapse

 

This has happened in certain African countries, so when white people demonstrate this type of appalling racism it really could impact the entire country

 

For me I have  no sympathy or inclination in educating any white person like this or being understanding  , they simply need to be removed from society 

 

None of the many white people I know would ever use language like this so its rare but an example needs to be made 

[Guard Dog]

Bruce a moral tyranny is every bit as bad as any other kind. If you believe C.S. Lewis it's actually worse. And once speech, even stupid speech, is punishable you are well on your way.

[Guard Dog]

@TN, I just saw your post from the other day. Deepest sympathies. Losing a friend, even a four legged one, hurts like hell. And we are all pulling with you for your niece's recovery. 

[Gfted1]

Crept out at 0 dark 30 to go pick up a card and flowers for my wife. There were already ~6 other dudes in the flower/card isle doing the same thing.  

[BruceVC]

Bruce a moral tyranny is every bit as bad as any other kind. If you believe C.S. Lewis it's actually worse. And once speech, even stupid speech, is punishable you are well on your way.

Okay well if that story didnt convince you racist words can lead to a collapse of a country then nothing will

 

I'll be honest I think you have to experience it to really understand why I would consider this drastic move 

 

But even if I try to explain I wont do the reality justice....trust me GD its unique but dont think I am complaining, I want to be part of the transformation...thats why I didn't take the US job offer. I remember how excited you were...I was planning on definitely visiting several people on this forum but of course only if it was appropriate

 

If you were fine with that I would have loved to meet your dogs and walked to Cold Creek.....then beers with Mani and Leferd and visited kgambit and others 

[BruceVC]

Crept out at 0 dark 30 to go pick up a card and flowers for my wife. There were already ~6 other dudes in the flower/card isle doing the same thing.

Gfted1 you will be very impressed with me...I had a problem with my geyser, there was no hot water. The plumbers came out and explained I  had to call an electrician as apparently there is switch that controls the hot water 

 

I am not sure if i told you but because my mom raised me and I only saw my dad every third weekend, and he was business man who had staff who did DYI, I never learnt any DYI skills.....like I'm really bad, I havent even mowed the lawn before and sometimes I feel like I  missed out on some passage of boyhood

 

Anyway for 3 days last week I had to take cold showers because I  wasn't able to phone the electrician but yesterday I thought 

 

" what would Gfted1 do in my situation? He would say " get under the hood and take  a look " ...so I took my trusty torch and headed into the roof and guess what ?

 

I fixed the issue  

[Guard Dog]

If the RSA can be destabilized by people posting on Facebook, get out now. The collapse is already inevitable.

[BruceVC]

If the RSA can be destabilized by people posting on Facebook, get out now. The collapse is already inevitable.

No you not understanding this issue properly, its not just you because you guys keep bringing up Facebook which is a trivial, gossip, superficial form of social media 

 

Its fine, you have live here to understand it

[Azdeus]

Sigh. My cat passed away this morning despite €900 worth of tests and treatments and my niece is in the hospital artificially kept in a coma to combat pneumonia right after her liver transplant.

 

Sincerely, this week can go screw itself up the rectum with a spiked rod smeared with burning ghost pepper sauce. Repeatedly.

 

My condolences TN, hope your niece gets better soon!

[Gromnir]

the free speech issue comes up frequent in this place and am suspecting the reason is the rather unique perspective re: speech that is prevalent in the USA. this board understandable has many posters who have US citizenship.  in the US, speech is considered a fundamental right, and while nations in europe, south america, asia and africa also claim that speech is a basic human right, the threshold for protecting speech in the US v. the rest o' the world (with almost no noteworthy exceptions) is different. in the US we accept that speech which can offend a listener is the speech most needing protection, though there has been some slippage on this point in recent years and 'mongst the younger generation. while bruce's perspective strikes us as antagonistic to protecting basic human rights, the rest o' the world is dedicated to the belief that curbing social disruptive speech is essential to protecting rights. bruce is the majority, and it got nothing to do with uniqueness o' sa.  same rationale is given in muslim nations and japan and virtual all o' europe.

 

Americans, for the most part, do not believe that the government has any business deciding if the content o' a speaker's message is worthy o' protection.  we make exceptions for child pr0n because such "speech" cannot be uttered w/o harming a child.  child pr0n is repugnant to the Constitution 'cause o' the damage it causes to a speaker as 'posed to a listener.   is several other limited exceptions, but an American is educated from a young age that speech, and the right to speak one's mind w/o fear o' State interference, is a cornerstone o' liberty and democracy. the Constitution, thankfully, does not protect a speaker from ordinary social pressures resulting from making a complete d-bag outta one's self by spewing hate and vitriol, but is no government power to censor the message o' the unpleasant speaker.  the American perspective, which is current out of favor in near all o' the rest o' the world, is the kinda freedom o' speech that de tocqueville, locke, mills and other giants o' liberty advocated. does it not scare bruce a little that Gromnir can quote john stuart mill when advocating the importance o' keeping speech genuine free?  mill argues that there should be, "absolute freedom of opinion and sentiment on all subjects, practical or speculative, scientific, moral, or theological." from history past, mill pleads with bruce...

 

"the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race… if the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth produced by its collision with error."

 

does it not worry bruce a little that the giants o' liberty, even those who is arguing pragmatism, would be so clear 'bout the importance o' keeping speech free?  instead, folks such as bruce has gotta argue that their situation is unique, or that times has so changed such that john stuart mill is no longer relevant? has fundamental notions o' liberty changed since the 19th century? if so, how? 

 

bruce speaks o' uniqueness o' his situation, but it ain't.  the rationale he embraces is tragically widespread... almost ubiquitous.  where speech has a tendency to cause social unrest, the speaker can be silenced.  when speech offends ethnic or religious groups, the speaker must be silenced. doesn't matter if is sa or sweden or japan, is not gonna be difficult to find examples o' speech being limited when social stability is the interest the State is protecting. bruce sees sa as being different.  is not.  is no different than arab nations, which were likely european colonies in recent historic times, imposing harsh penalties 'pon speakers who would offend islam or arabs or the state government.  is more than a few former colonial nations in the middle east, northern africa and asia that can boast similar scenarios in which a minority exerted power over a disproportionate majority.  

 

is particular disconcerting that in a place such as south africa there would be such widespread willingness to abridge basic human rights.  how many people were imprisoned (or worse) by the apartheid government for no reason save that they expressed the wrong ideas too often or too loud?  one woulda' hoped that a people so long deprived o' personal liberties woulda' been more protective o' their hard won freedoms.  liberty has never been a gift.  the people o' south africa, as did the people o' the US, paid for their liberty in blood.  for the people o' south africa to throw such liberty away makes Gromnir weep. 

 

again, it should be axiomatic that the only speech that needs protection is speech which has a tendency to offend.  what is the point o' protecting speech that does not anger or offend? to use fears o' unspecific social unrest to abridge speech freedoms is making those freedoms impotent.  

[BruceVC]

the free speech issue comes up frequent in this place and am suspecting the reason is the rather unique perspective re: speech that is prevalent in the USA. this board understandable has many posters who have US citizenship.  in the US, speech is considered a fundamental right, and while nations in europe, south america, asia and africa also claim that speech is a basic human right, the threshold for protecting speech in the US v. the rest o' the world (with almost no noteworthy exceptions) is different. in the US we accept that speech which can offend a listener is the speech most needing protection, though there has been some slippage on this point in recent years and 'mongst the younger generation. while bruce's perspective strikes us as antagonistic to protecting basic human rights, the rest o' the world is dedicated to the belief that curbing social disruptive speech is essential to protecting rights. bruce is the majority, and it got nothing to do with uniqueness o' sa.  same rationale is given in muslim nations and japan and virtual all o' europe.

 

Americans, for the most part, do not believe that the government has any business deciding if the content o' a speaker's message is worthy o' protection.  we make exceptions for child pr0n because such "speech" cannot be uttered w/o harming a child.  child pr0n is repugnant to the Constitution 'cause o' the damage it causes to a speaker as 'posed to a listener.   is several other limited exceptions, but an American is educated from a young age that speech, and the right to speak one's mind w/o fear o' State interference, is a cornerstone o' liberty and democracy. the Constitution, thankfully, does not protect a speaker from ordinary social pressures resulting from making a complete d-bag outta one's self by spewing hate and vitriol, but is no government power to censor the message o' the unpleasant speaker.  the American perspective, which is current out of favor in near all o' the rest o' the world, is the kinda freedom o' speech that de tocqueville, locke, mills and other giants o' liberty advocated. does it not scare bruce a little that Gromnir can quote john stuart mill when advocating the importance o' keeping speech genuine free?  mill argues that there should be, "absolute freedom of opinion and sentiment on all subjects, practical or speculative, scientific, moral, or theological." from history past, mill pleads with bruce...

 

"the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race… if the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth produced by its collision with error."

 

does it not worry bruce a little that the giants o' liberty, even those who is arguing pragmatism, would be so clear 'bout the importance o' keeping speech free?  instead, folks such as bruce has gotta argue that their situation is unique, or that times has so changed such that john stuart mill is no longer relevant? has fundamental notions o' liberty changed since the 19th century? if so, how? 

 

bruce speaks o' uniqueness o' his situation, but it ain't.  the rationale he embraces is tragically widespread... almost ubiquitous.  where speech has a tendency to cause social unrest, the speaker can be silenced.  when speech offends ethnic or religious groups, the speaker must be silenced. doesn't matter if is sa or sweden or japan, is not gonna be difficult to find examples o' speech being limited when social stability is the interest the State is protecting. bruce sees sa as being different.  is not.  is no different than arab nations, which were likely european colonies in recent historic times, imposing harsh penalties 'pon speakers who would offend islam or arabs or the state government.  is more than a few former colonial nations in the middle east, northern africa and asia that can boast similar scenarios in which a minority exerted power over a disproportionate majority.  

 

is particular disconcerting that in a place such as south africa there would be such widespread willingness to abridge basic human rights.  how many people were imprisoned (or worse) by the apartheid government for no reason save that they expressed the wrong ideas too often or too loud?  one woulda' hoped that a people so long deprived o' personal liberties woulda' been more protective o' their hard won freedoms.  liberty has never been a gift.  the people o' south africa, as did the people o' the US, paid for their liberty in blood.  for the people o' south africa to throw such liberty away makes Gromnir weep. 

 

again, it should be axiomatic that the only speech that needs protection is speech which has a tendency to offend.  what is the point o' protecting speech that does not anger or offend? to use fears o' unspecific social unrest to abridge speech freedoms is making those freedoms impotent.  

Okay remember this idea of jail time for extreme racism is not legal or very well supported, many black people are against it 

 

But white people like myself and other black people are pushing for extreme measures, your post has had the impact of  exaggerating what I want but you also are right because yes this is a unique situation and yes I would argue  john stuart mill didnt understand Apartheid legacy 

 

But I am pushing for this to protect human rights....not to abuse it but then you could argue it could be abused 

 

I dont really agree with how you Americans all support free speech where you believe "there are no exceptions " , in SA we know certain words are very hurtful and symbolic and remind people of the past. So we ban those words, its no problem but then we still have isues like this 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/south-african-woman-faces-criminal-charges-racist-tweets

 

So I guess I need to explain an Apartheid story, Gromnir I seem to be echoing what you said earlier but what black South Africans went through is unique. Your life story is really about you facing numerous challengers and events like racism in the early days but end of the day you became a much stronger person...and now you can give input which is interesting and thought provoking ...but I still say even you are underestimating the mental trauma of Apartheid ...but give me time to write this story 

[ShadySands]

Played basketball this morning for the first time in a few years. Felt so good to be back out on the court again but my shot was more like a total stranger rather than an old friend. I swear the stupid basketball ring    was also plotting against me

 

Another round of layoffs at work, nobody on my immediate team this time though

[Gfted1]

I cant even run and dribble at the same time. I guess thats how I earned the nickname "that dude is travelling like a mo-fo".

[Hurlshort]

I've got my summer trip planned out and booked.  We are starting in Yellowstone, then spending a couple days in Deadwood around the 4th of July.  We've got a bus tour scheduled for Mount Rushmore, then we head down to Denver.  I bought tickets for the Rockies and booked a tour for New Belgium Brewing.  It should be a good one.

[Oerwinde]

I'm going camping with the rest of my family last week of June, then leaving the kids with my parents for 2 weeks. It is going to be amazing. We might even get the house clean.

[Calax]

Going back to Cali at the end of the month to visit with the nuclear fam for about 2 days before the extended family reunions in Yosemitie.

[Hurlshort]

We will be in Yosemite during Memorial Day weekend.  I'm not quite looking forward to it, given the likelihood of crowds, but I have a buddy that wanted us to go and he doesn't have the breaks that us teachers get.  It will still be a nice warm up trip to make sure everything is in order.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Starting to take Wednesday's off due to having too many holidays accrued (5 months up my sleeve already) and trying to get it down.

 

Day off and fairly productive day. Run along the beach. Counted and bagged all my coins that I accumulated in a jar and deposited a few hundred dollars at the bank. Bought some jeans, business pants and shirts. Took the car to a car wash and sat back and read the newspaper with a cappuccino. Installed a digital certificate on my girlfriends laptop so she can access some .gov site. Confirmed our tickets to Hawaii in March next year ($350 return flights - yeah!) and went through the itinerary staying at the Big Island, Kauai and Oahu (also managed to get a $300 discount on accommodation). Finalised my ski trip later this year.

 

Sitting back and watching some TV episodes. Caught up on the latest with Arrow, Blindspot, Flash, The 100 and The Blacklist.

 

Time to get some lunch.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist

[BruceVC]

I have had a good week but very busy at work, we have some new potential opportunities at customers so I'm busy with that

 

Almost no time to chat on the forums