HBO Game of Thrones Season 6!

[Lexx]

Btw. funny how the attack of the masters accidentally happened shortly before our never-learing-queen-of-dragons arrived with her army. Especially funny considering if the masters had not attacked before, she probably would have fkd everything or at least something up on her own, with her new shiny army and zero gained knowledge in anything. It was basically a writers ploy to get out of the "peace for years situation", which they would have fallen into.

 

 

I mean, all in all the episode was entertaining to watch. It's just these very stupid moments they *have* to add into every episode now. Almost as if they are doing this on purpose.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

Btw. funny how the attack of the masters accidentally happened shortly before our never-learing-queen-of-dragons arrived with her army. Especially funny considering if the masters had not attacked before, she probably would have fkd everything or at least something up on her own, with her new shiny army and zero gained knowledge in anything. It was basically a writers ploy to get out of the "peace for years situation", which they would have fallen into.

 

 

I mean, all in all the episode was entertaining to watch. It's just these very stupid moments they *have* to add into every episode now. It's almost like they are doing in on purpose.

Yes you shouldn't over-analyze those  events like 2 x dragons crawling out the sand ....unless she did summon them ?

[Oner]

I had hope when he took the bait and sent an opening cavalry charge outnumbered 3 to 1 like an idiot.

 

It wasn't Jon's plan to let the two cavalries fight it out, Tormund just ordered the charge to save Jon's ass after he fell for Ramsey's taunting.

He was in idiot for charging alone, he wasn't an idiot for not giving an order you guys keep crediting him for.

 

 

Yes you shouldn't over-analyze those  events like 2 x dragons crawling out the sand ....unless she did summon them ?

They broke through the walls of their prison. Which was convenient as hell, but hardly "summoned from sand".

[BruceVC]

 

I had hope when he took the bait and sent an opening cavalry charge outnumbered 3 to 1 like an idiot.

 

It wasn't Jon's plan to let the two cavalries fight it out, Tormund just ordered the charge to save Jon's ass after he fell for Ramsey's taunting.

He was in idiot for charging alone, he wasn't an idiot for not giving an order you guys keep crediting him for.

 

 

Yes you shouldn't over-analyze those  events like 2 x dragons crawling out the sand ....unless she did summon them ?

They broke through the walls of their prison. Which was convenient as hell, but hardly "summoned from sand".

 

Okay good point ....but then yes the coincidence would have to be impossible 

 

 

She could have summoned them using telepathy?

[Oner]

I'd say they heard Drogon's roar and decided to leave.

[Gorgon]

So he basically abandoned all semblance of command and control. of and army. during a battle.

 

Anyway those weren't 'reinforcements' not in the sense that they knew they they would be available ahead of time. 

[Rosbjerg]

Jon has never really shown tactical genius- he's lost pretty much all engagement he's been in, except those few where another force (lead by a superior commander) has come to his rescue.. so in that regard what we saw was pretty consistent.

 

Ramsey was similarly a subpar commander and his weakness was indeed his need for cruelty as the tactics he used were only really psychological. Which in the end also cost him the battle when they backfired.

[HoonDing]

Good job running in a straight line in front of a bowman.

[Guard Dog]

 

The episode was meh. N

You guys are almost impossible to please.....seriously   

 

This episode should be considered one of the best single episodes of any series. It had so many exciting threads and ended so many story lines....how can anyone not love it  

 

Well if the show were the only thing we had it would be easier to not be as critical. There characters on the show tend not to hold up well when compared to their book counterparts. Unfortunately there seems to be a underlying theme to Jon is not allowed to be a "hero" in the traditional sense. He can't seem to accomplish anything without help. I suspect book Jon would have kept his cool and not sacrificed his position or his army's movement discipline in an attempt to save Rickon.

 

And if Rickon had any sense he would listen for the sound of Ramsy's bow release then change direction when he hears it. Once an arrow is fired it can't change direction, he can.

[Gorgon]

I think the Bolton - Snow battle was supposed to be sortof a reimagining of The Battle of Cannae. With the Boltons as Hannibal and the Snows playing the romans and the numerical advantage reversed. 

 

First the envelopment and the resulting melee and crush of men which kills many more than the actual figthing and then the presenting of an escape route (climbing atop the pile of bodies) to force a conclusion. 

[majestic]

So here are my two cents, some points were already raised but yeah, I'll just repeat them as I hold them necessary:

 

• Putting Peter Dinklage and Emilia Clarke in the same scenes just showed how woefully sub-par she is compared to, well, pretty much everyone else on the show. Even Sophie Turner is better and she certainly is on the lower rung.
• The dragons burning the ships was some solid special effects work, but Dany was clearly using some sort of steps or a ladder to climb Drogon.
• Let the Dany/Asha shipping commence (please dear god no, just no).
• You go Rickon, just run in a straight line so Ramsay can play with you. Good boy.
• Hey Jon maybe you should listen to your sister. Sure she's a bit dumb but when she's right, she's right.
• Davos was awesome when suggesting to copy Hannibal's winning tactic of the battle of Cannae. I'm not sure the wildlings would have the necessary discipline for that though. Never mind, didn't happen anway. See, that would have been a nice, logical reason for the lines to break in the wrong way and the battle devolve into a bloody, chaotic mess. *sigh*

 

Which brings me to the battle scene which I found... simply put, well, terrible. I have long since resigned myself to the fact that realistic "medieval" army makeup and equipment will always be sacrificed to the Rule of Cool and that is fine, within reason (e.g. wrong armor or the fact that even lowly soldiers all seem to be able to afford swords), but this fight did a number on my suspension of disbelief.

 

Just how did that mountain of corpses rise from the ground? Did the soldiers climb it so they can f'ing die up there? Or did the same special Bolton commando unit that burned Stannis' siege equipment last season pile it up while everyone wasn't looking? Seriously? And even so, how the hell did Jon's forces end up being pushed behind it? Why isn't Wun Wun breaking the Bolton's newfound hoplite line by using all those corpses as bowling equipment? Why doesn't he at least carry a trunk or something to properly smash Bolton soldiers?

 

And why did they just stand there and watch being encircled just like Aragon did at the end of the Return of the King movie (that was pretty stupid too)?

 

I also get that Wun Wun's presence was necessary so he can smash the Winterfell gates (why are they made of wood by the by? Where's the moat? Or the inner or outer walls? Why does Winterfell's interior look like a stupid barn rather than a fortress? Only D&D know...).

 

Lastly, why is it that every time there is a medieval battle on TV or in a movie that the two armies are deployed two miles apart and then charge each other? Ever tried running a mile in armor with some heavy weaponry and maybe even a shield and then fighting when meeting the other army? Yeah, right. *sigh*

 

Rant over. Still liked the episode for the most part. I can pretend that silly engagement didn't play out the way it did.

[Guard Dog]

Actually Winterfell looked a LOT like Castle Black.

[BruceVC]

Actually Winterfell looked a LOT like Castle Black.

GD is it not possible that some of the criticism towards this season from you guys  is more about confusion around the narrative as there is no book to reference ?

 

It may even be on some subconscious level ?

[Guard Dog]

Ah, that MUST be it. We are confused by the labynthine complexity of a TV show plot. My what poor dim witted wretches we must be! No, seriously they left the books behind in many ways long ago. No the criticism is because of story choices that honestly don't always make sense. But we tune in every week so it is safe to say we all like the show.

[BruceVC]

Ah, that MUST be it. We are confused by the labynthine complexity of a TV show plot. My what poor dim witted wretches we must be! No, seriously they left the books behind in many ways long ago. No the criticism is because of story choices that honestly don't always make sense. But we tune in every week so it is safe to say we all like the show.

Fair enough, I just wanted to raise that consideration ...but it does seem unlikely 

[Zoraptor]

I think the Bolton - Snow battle was supposed to be sortof a reimagining of The Battle of Cannae. With the Boltons as Hannibal and the Snows playing the romans and the numerical advantage reversed.

 

I don't really like the Cannae comparisons. Sure, it's a shorthand reference but Cannae was genius because of the numerical imbalance, remove that and it's 'just' an encirclement/ double envelopment. Which is far, far more common since a larger army 'naturally' outflanks a smaller one by simple dint of being larger.

 

Mainly though, a comparison to Jon or Ramsay would be insulting to L. Aemilius Paulus or G. Terentius Varro, let alone Hannibal. Both bastards were abject morons, at least Varro had a plan based on the little that worked at Trebia and Trasimene and was fighting one of the greatest of all time. Of all time!

[Ganrich]

The biggest issues to me are how shallow it all is, really. They are fine breaking character to shoe horn people in the directing they need the arc to go.

 

Arya has shown she is smart enough in prior seasons to not galavant around Braavos tossing gold bags, but for suspense they force the character to do it.

 

Sanaa's arc change has been abysmal. They should have kept her in the Vale.

 

The Dorne plot was, and is, laughable at how it's handled. It's one of the weaker parts of the later books, but Doran Martell is a character I expected some interesting stuff from. Nope. Just get out the eraser on that one.

 

Jaime's arc would have been fine had Tyrion told him about Cercei's infidelity. That single line "She was ****ing Lancel, the Kettlebacks, and Moonboy for all I know." That conflict plus Brienne makes him on of my favorite book characters, and it would have added to his scenes.

 

The North forgot.

 

Ramsay is a cartoon villain.

 

I was hoping for Val, too.

 

They have taken a book series that is probably the single most detailed fantasy series of the past 100 years and made it as shallow as a puddle in a light drizzle. I expected it to not be as deep as the books, but the past two seasons have been too far a contrast for my liking.

 

As an avid reader, and having a solid grasp on character development, I am sorry that I can see bad writing when it's in front of me, Bruce. The rule of cool gets mighty mundane after many books, tv shows, movies, and games use it at the detriment to their characters and stories. They have been abusing the rule of cool for years, and it gets old. Interesting characters make a story better than cool stuff, fan service crap like this battle, and too many dragons.

[Longknife]

On a scale of 1 to 10, how dumb can Jon Snow still become?

 

This is exactly why I'm very jaded with our protagonists and Jaime continues to be my favorite. At least he does some self-reflection and tries to improve. Everyone else is either derp, a complete jerk, or both.

 

I think at this point I'm really more or less just interested in Bran's Story and King's Landing (aka Jaime, Cersei, Margaery). Those are the ones that they seem like they could go any direction, whereas Dany and Jon just herpaderp about but win anyways becuz plot armor.

[Zoraptor]

The biggest issues to me are how shallow it all is, really. They are fine breaking character to shoe horn people in the directing they need the arc to go. [..]

 

The Dorne plot was, and is, laughable at how it's handled. It's one of the weaker parts of the later books, but Doran Martell is a character I expected some interesting stuff from. Nope. Just get out the eraser on that one.[..]

 

I think Dorne epitomises the TV show's problems. The equivalent part of the books was not well received and elements of it (Darkstar, he's of the night, r00fles) were pretty cringeworthy. Show has managed to make it look like the height of tight, believable plotting and characterisation. At least we got the 'fire and blood' speech and promise of better to come from Doran as pay off in the books, in the show the plot line was taken out behind the wood shed and dispatched summarily, excluding perhaps the single most ridiculed part of the show in the Sand Snakes. That may have been a good thing given how poorly executed (heh) the plot was but it looks clumsy at best given how much time was wasted in Dorne last season.

 

I still think we'll get Manderly eventually for the same reasons I did previous- the Freys have to be dealt with and going full Mrs Lovett on them has shock attraction. Maybe Jon will send Davos to visit them and we'll get the 'full' Davos/ Manderly plotline, just delayed and with little logic since the Boltons aren't a factor any more. But it's the sort of thing that should be a slow burn and not randomly appear an episode or two before it becomes relevant- introduce Manderly, have Davos meet him, have some Freys visit. Doesn't take much preparation. And really, the battle would have made so much more sense if it had been Manderly, a (more or less) local guy who Ramsay was expecting to turn up with his army as an ally, instead of Petyr 'mass teleportation' Baelish who can apparently avoid Bolton scouts and supply his army etc despite not being local in any way. It would also have the added value of being how Ramsay won Winterfell in the first place, by stabbing someone who expected him as an ally (General Sideburns) in the back. You could even retain feeding him to the dogs if you wanted to.

[Ganrich]

 

The biggest issues to me are how shallow it all is, really. They are fine breaking character to shoe horn people in the directing they need the arc to go. [..]

 

The Dorne plot was, and is, laughable at how it's handled. It's one of the weaker parts of the later books, but Doran Martell is a character I expected some interesting stuff from. Nope. Just get out the eraser on that one.[..]

 

 

I think Dorne epitomises the TV show's problems. The equivalent part of the books was not well received and elements of it (Darkstar, he's of the night, r00fles) were pretty cringeworthy. Show has managed to make it look like the height of tight, believable plotting and characterisation. At least we got the 'fire and blood' speech and promise of better to come from Doran as pay off in the books, in the show the plot line was taken out behind the wood shed and dispatched summarily, excluding perhaps the single most ridiculed part of the show in the Sand Snakes. That may have been a good thing given how poorly executed (heh) the plot was but it looks clumsy at best given how much time was wasted in Dorne last season.

 

I still think we'll get Manderly eventually for the same reasons I did previous- the Freys have to be dealt with and going full Mrs Lovett on them has shock attraction. Maybe Jon will send Davos to visit them and we'll get the 'full' Davos/ Manderly plotline, just delayed and with little logic since the Boltons aren't a factor any more. But it's the sort of thing that should be a slow burn and not randomly appear an episode or two before it becomes relevant- introduce Manderly, have Davos meet him, have some Freys visit. Doesn't take much preparation. And really, the battle would have made so much more sense if it had been Manderly, a (more or less) local guy who Ramsay was expecting to turn up with his army as an ally, instead of Petyr 'mass teleportation' Baelish who can apparently avoid Bolton scouts and supply his army etc despite not being local in any way. It would also have the added value of being how Ramsay won Winterfell in the first place, by stabbing someone who expected him as an ally (General Sideburns) in the back. You could even retain feeding him to the dogs if you wanted to.

Manderly's appearance will be less satisfying after the Bolton's are gone. I don't see the Starks riding down south to the Twins and killing Freys. I expect The BwB, the Hound, and maybe Arya to do that. Manderly's presence in the books was basically a small glimmer of hope to people like myself who want to see the North step it up a bit, and get revenge for the Red Wedding. It'll be anticlimactic after taking Winterfell. Just like that battle was a bit weak because of Jon's resurrection giving him at least a season's worth of solid plot armor.

 

A betrayal of Ramsay would have been better. I wish they hadn't killed GreatJon, and the other two Umbers and Manderly had been working on ships like in the books. That way the Umbers and Manderly could at least have turned the battle. It wouldn't have required Littlefinger, and it would have been more satisfying all around. Manderly potentially minting a Northern coin and building ships with the Umbers also gives more credence to the Bolton betrayal. This is because the Boltons have the Umber north of him and Manderly to the south. It would slowly burn away house Bolton's power, or at least given that perception to Roose.

 

I didn't just want Manderly, but the potential for something on the level of the Red Wedding for the north. I expect we will see that either next week or next season via the Riverlands story and the Freys. We will see.

 

I agree with you on the Dorne story, though. It is an extreme example of what is wrong with the show, but this season the north is as well.

[Volourn]

"Even Sophie Turner is better and she certainly is on the lower rung."

 

She is one of the best on the show. PERIOD.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Volourn

[Lexx]

What I've asked myself all the time while the battle: Why the hell does the giant not haul stones or something at the enemy? Why doesn't he grab the punny spears and throw around some people? Why didn't he pick up anything, like all the bodies, and hauled it over the lines? They could have more or less easily broke that circle, if he had hauled some dudes into it. Instead he stands there, waves his arms a lil bit and looks like a big, dumb fool. (probably to save on CGI costs? It really looked like he couldn't grab a single *not moving* spear in front of him)

 

/edit: And in the end it felt to me like they killed the giant to save future cgi costs, or so they don't have to use him in a future plot. Heh. :D

Edited June 21, 2016 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

What I've asked myself all the time while the battle: Why the hell does the giant not haul stones or something at the enemy? Why doesn't he grab the punny spears and throw around some people? Why didn't he pick up anything, like all the bodies, and hauled it over the lines?

 

This made me laugh, its true what you suggest. Its like the giant said " in this massive battle what is the MOST ineffective way I could use my size to ensure my size became the easiest target " ...

[Guard Dog]

 

Ah, that MUST be it. We are confused by the labynthine complexity of a TV show plot. My what poor dim witted wretches we must be! No, seriously they left the books behind in many ways long ago. No the criticism is because of story choices that honestly don't always make sense. But we tune in every week so it is safe to say we all like the show.

Fair enough, I just wanted to raise that consideration ...but it does seem unlikely 

 

If we didn't like the show we wouldn't talk about it at all. It would just be ignored. You know like we did with Enterprise.

[Fighter]

I feel like the closer to the end the more messy it will be. They will cram in resolutions to various plots and not all will be given the necessary space.