what role do monks serve?

[Lychnidos]

Easy way to use Sagani is to simply send the fox around the main ruckus, and have it together with her take care of casters and archers. The fox is fast enough to reach them in no time, and when you are finished flank the main line.

[Boeroer]

 

Is it normal that torments reach has no AOE indicator? In the log I can see the extra crush damage, but I am not sure if it hits other enemies.

 

I don't get one even on a high intellect monk, so I'm guessing for some reason there isn't one for Torment's Reach. It's a tad annoying since I'd like to be able to place it well, but honestly it does such high damage to the primary target it's good even if you ignore the AoE.

 

The Full Attack with dual fists is the secret that makes it even viable if you don't hit adjacent enemies. It's a wasted ability (I'm exaggerating a bit here) if you use it with two handers or single weapons. With double fists it's awesome.

[JerekKruger]

The Full Attack with dual fists is the secret that makes it even viable if you don't hit adjacent enemies. It's a wasted ability (I'm exaggerating a bit here) if you use it with two handers or single weapons. With double fists it's awesome.

 

Yeah, I should have specified that it really only shines when dual wielding, ideally dual fists I guess.

[Crucis]

 

 

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

This is now the second thread that you've ranted about how useless Zahua is.....and now throw Sagani into the mix too? Both are considered too be extremely powerful. Zahua is a very good tank that has good dps capabilities as well, and rangers are simply beasts. From the moment you get Sagani she can be dealing extreme dps which continues to get better and better.

 

Clearly this is a problem of you building and/or playing your characters horribly bad. Stop ranting about things you don't understand and try to learn.

If you have nothing constructive to offer, mind your business and don't reply on my thread. Deal? Your snark and condescension are more useless than Sagani.

 

 

 

Dude, it's NOT "your" thread.  Once you post it, anyone can say that they want, preferably on topic. And IMO Mocker is very much on topic.  And probably quite correct that if you think that Zahua and Sagani are "useless", maybe YOU are the problem and not them.

[Crucis]

Easy way to use Sagani is to simply send the fox around the main ruckus, and have it together with her take care of casters and archers. The fox is fast enough to reach them in no time, and when you are finished flank the main line.

 

Something else you can use the fox for is if you have a cipher in the party, have the fox running around behind enemy lines and target it with one of those beam spells that ciphers use.  This way, you don't have to risk a normal character.

 

Of course, if one has a monk (say, Zahua) in the party with a cipher, monks are quite fast runners and you could so the same thing.  Oh wait.... would that make a monk and/or Sagani (well, her fox) useful?  Oh the humanity! 

[Ymarsakar]

I use sagani's fox like a mini rogue. I restarted POTD with a monk, a rogue, and a barbarian, just to see how they would play in the beginning and learn the updated changes from experience via battle.

 

The monk takes some getting used to, like the cipher and rogue playstyles. Getting a monk at high level, you won't know how to integrate him if you don't know how the class plays. Half the reason I integrated a rogue into my party this early before White March, was so when I slipped in the Devil, I wouldn't be going around like a chicken with its head cut off, wondering why my party tactics are broken.

 

Certainly, for mass crowd control, durance and aloth are pretty important. But a paladin and chanter these days can make up the healing output of a priest, so long as you also have enough melee to form a wall. Chanter technically has "infinite healing" though. Paladins run out of lay on hands 2/encounter and druids/priests run out of spells. Chanters do not, so long as they can keep chanting at least. And their aoe passive heal has been restored to about the same usefulness as around 1.0 if not more useful, limited duration but increasingly more effective heals due to might and levels.

 

To address the OP, a monk's role is DPS and tanking. They combine well, since the monk has to take damage to get wounds, which causes them to do damage. So the more damage=morewounds=more dps output via torment's reach. Unlike other melee classes, they often work better without any enchanted weapons, just fist alone unlocks their potential. I like the fist/shield combo though, especially since the icon turns into a shield now.

 

Anguish is hilariously funny to watch. The AI script doesn't know when to use it, so I have to micro that one.

 

On another note, backstab/escape on the rogue is pretty fun to use. Maybe it'll become boring later, but right now it is pretty good for an initial pull against critical enemies like wizards. Might need to cast a priest stasis spell later on though, for when the rogue can't get away.

 

I've noticed a lot of areas in Act 1-2 of POTD has had their enemies reduced. Used to be, trash mobs were like the RUssians, a quality to quantity all on its own. Had so many enemies that would circle the tanks, that the backlines ended up touching the front. Pulls would get 10, maybe 15 enemies, and that was the time when barbarians and aoe spells shone.

 

I've been practicing a formation with the priest and druid at the center, with a circle of melee around them, using terrain to block off access if feasible. Different from my previous playthrough, which focused more on out ranging people, since I didn't have a priest to heal anybody. And chanter's aoe heal was non existent.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Ichthyic]

Those telling you that you shouldn't use monks as ranged attackers seem to have forgotten the new level 7 skill they have, which is basically a HADOUKEN on steroids.

as for wounds, have your own party toss a friendly fire weak aoe spell on them, and they'll get all the wounds they need.

there's a good video of this kind of build.  let me see if I can find it.

edit:
 

here you go:

Ranged monk build STILL using fists!

....go to youtube, watch this link

/watch?v=EIZya2Qa0NA

Edited March 16, 2016 by Ichthyic

[Ichthyic]

 

Easy way to use Sagani is to simply send the fox around the main ruckus, and have it together with her take care of casters and archers. The fox is fast enough to reach them in no time, and when you are finished flank the main line.

 

Something else you can use the fox for is if you have a cipher in the party, have the fox running around behind enemy lines and target it with one of those beam spells that ciphers use.  This way, you don't have to risk a normal character.

 

Of course, if one has a monk (say, Zahua) in the party with a cipher, monks are quite fast runners and you could so the same thing.  Oh wait.... would that make a monk and/or Sagani (well, her fox) useful?  Oh the humanity! 

 

That strategy also works great with Pallegina built as a runadin, with her huge defensive scores and disengagement aura (which also gives her the same +2 move as a monk), you can have her run right *through* enemy groups trailing the level 3 cipher beam, and she will take little if any damage usually.

 

you can even give her the cloak of the cheat, which turns grazes into misses, and gives her an escape use per encounter, which means zero engagement as she runs through the crowd.

 

 

[Boeroer]

Those telling you that you shouldn't use monks as ranged attackers seem to have forgotten the new level 7 skill they have, which is basically a HADOUKEN on steroids.

 

as for wounds, have your own party toss a friendly fire weak aoe spell on them, and they'll get all the wounds they need.

 

there's a good video of this kind of build.  let me see if I can find it.

 

edit:

 

here you go:

 

Ranged monk build STILL using fists!

 

....go to youtube, watch this link

 

/watch?v=EIZya2Qa0NA

Tried that as soon as I saw The Long Pain. It's really good. I tried to fiddle around with Dangerous Implement to get the wounds by myself, but it takes too long. What you can totally do is combine melee with ranged. First go into melee and get wounded, then zip out with Flagellant's Path and Boots of Speed and start shooting. Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes help a lot. Atm I try to combine that with Scion of FLame, quick switch and four arquebuses with burning lash: When I hit 10 wounds I turn on Lighning Strikes, switch to my guns and do four quick shots with +60% burning lash + 30% burning lash + 25% shocking lash + 20% raw damage (Blood Testament Gloves), then I summon the Long Pain for the rest. Will report how it goes and if all the switching with arquebuses is worth it or if it would be better to simply stick to The Long Pain.

Note that the sandals of the Forgotten Friar also work with the Long Pain (+2 base damage).

 

Nerd Commando did a mistake: Outlander's Frenzy doesn't Stack with Swift Stikes - at least the last time I checked. And Penetrating Shot is not a multipier - it just gets substracted. So maybe it is worth taking. Didn't do any math though.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Boeroer

[Braven]

That is an interesting strategy, Boeroer.  Seems like the guns would do quite a bit of damage with all the lashes.  While waiting for the wounds, you could use quick slot items or talent abilities like aspirant's mark.  With a couple buffs from potions or scrolls, and enemy debuffs, you will be even more deadly when unleashing the bullets.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Braven

[Crucis]

Those telling you that you shouldn't use monks as ranged attackers seem to have forgotten the new level 7 skill they have, which is basically a HADOUKEN on steroids.

 

When I played my monk PC, there was a point where she was taking more damage than she could reliably handle as a front liner.  So I moved her to the second row and did the following.  I armed her with a hunting bow, since it's in the same weapons group as fists.  And I'd have her take a few shots, to give the battle time to develop.  And when I saw an opening or a spot where the monk's hand to hand skills could be best put to use, I'd have her switch back to fists and run right into the fray.  If it happened to be a battle where the enemy had some spell casters in the rear, I'd often have my monk run straight for those casters instead of supporting the front liners, because 1v1 a monk almost always makes mincemeat out of any caster.

 

The point was that I didn't view this monk as a ranged combatant.  She was only using a ranged weapon as a means of doing something useful while I allowed the battle to develop, before I sent her into melee.  Also, I suppose that I could have had her use a harder hitting ranged weapon, but I wanted to stick to the roleplaying (and her weapon group) and use the hunting bow.  OF course, she was lightly armored and could produce a very nice RoF.  But I suppose that if one was playing a more heavily armored monk and using this tactic, maybe a harder hitting weapon might make more sense.

[MaxQuest]

The Full Attack with dual fists is the secret that makes it even viable if you don't hit adjacent enemies. It's a wasted ability (I'm exaggerating a bit here) if you use it with two handers or single weapons. With double fists it's awesome.

It seems to be good with dual weapons as well, if they have some effect on them (like stunning).

 

---------------

 

I decided to test how good Torment's Reach can actually be. And:

- Made a test lvl 16 monk. With 40 int / 200 per / 15 mig.

- Took Turning Wheel, Apprentice Sneak Attack and Enervating Blows.

- Equipped Glittering Gloves, We Toki with freeze lash, and stunning Cladhaliath with corrode lash.

- Issued the monk to hit with Torment Reach a swamp spore (with two spores behind it)

Here is the combat log (from that 1 hit):

 

 

 

 

 

Notes:

- Both the stun and prone were applied to everyone screenshot 1

- If you expand all those closures, the total damage is actually higher: screenshot 2 (all those add up to 613.4 dmg)

- Dazzling (from the gloves) was applied only to the main target

- Weakened (from Enervating Blows) was applied only to main target

- Because Weakened is applied first, it's easier to stun the main target

- When you activate the ability, it does two cone attacks. Offhand first. Then using main hand.

 

What I don't understand through, is: why each weapon makes 4+1 attack... Looks like two back oozes are hit twice.

Edited March 18, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

 

Those telling you that you shouldn't use monks as ranged attackers seem to have forgotten the new level 7 skill they have, which is basically a HADOUKEN on steroids.

 

as for wounds, have your own party toss a friendly fire weak aoe spell on them, and they'll get all the wounds they need.

 

there's a good video of this kind of build.  let me see if I can find it.

 

edit:

 

here you go:

 

Ranged monk build STILL using fists!

 

....go to youtube, watch this link

 

/watch?v=EIZya2Qa0NA

Tried that as soon as I saw The Long Pain. It's really good. I tried to fiddle around with Dangerous Implement to get the wounds by myself, but it takes too long. What you can totally do is combine melee with ranged. First go into melee and get wounded, then zip out with Flagellant's Path and Boots of Speed and start shooting. Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes help a lot. Atm I try to combine that with Scion of FLame, quick switch and four arquebuses with burning lash: When I hit 10 wounds I turn on Lighning Strikes, switch to my guns and do four quick shots with +60% burning lash + 30% burning lash + 25% shocking lash + 20% raw damage (Blood Testament Gloves), then I summon the Long Pain for the rest. Will report how it goes and if all the switching with arquebuses is worth it or if it would be better to simply stick to The Long Pain.

Note that the sandals of the Forgotten Friar also work with the Long Pain (+2 base damage).

 

Nerd Commando did a mistake: Outlander's Frenzy doesn't Stack with Swift Stikes - at least the last time I checked. And Penetrating Shot is not a multipier - it just gets substracted. So maybe it is worth taking. Didn't do any math though.

 

Ok - I tested it and realized that at some point in the past htey made Turning Wheel melee only. Atm you don't get the burning lash bonus if you use ranged weapons - Long Pain included. It only works in melee now. Very sad - there goes my idea...  

[Ymarsakar]

Barbarian and monk and even fighter seems pretty focused on melee. But for monk, these days I just eat engagement attacks and it's instant wounds when I need em.

 

Harmful aoe spells like the druid is also good. This time, it's a good thing if it doesn't avoid hitting friendlies.

 

It's amazing how much the early game has gotten easier. I did the Medreth fight outside Dyrford, and with a level 5 party, they were easily killed. Of course, my knowledge of the game has increased by several orders since then.

 

They really need to add more priests to their parties and have them do the buff tactic, copied from players.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Brimsurfer]

Monks are frontline power houses, kind of like dual wielding full offensive fighter in heavy plate.......except they use fists and have some aoe spells.....in this game you can't roll with monks in light or no armor on higher difficulties, at least I couldn't but once I gave her some decent DR she is absolutely rocking the battlefield......I also couldn't play with Zahua effectively myself, the first time I played WM1.....

 

Give your Monk good DR, Might and Constitution and then watch him level the battlefield, I haven't tried retaliation on my monk yet but I am thinking it would work nicely on her, since she gets hit quite a lot. 

[Reent]

i dont know what all of you do... but i play a min/max monk... try it out: create a monk, cheat him 26 int - use "god"... go to the rogue and attack him - get wounds, position yourself so you can torments reach someone and the cone hits towards the caravan members - play PC monk with ring of overseeing and max int all the way... never look back.

 

 

 

I dont know - is it a bug? is it a feature? However it looks like (if you have enough AOE+) every enemy hit with the cone of torments reach activates a new cone - making for ridiculous aoe...

(jeah, 100% a bug - is it new in the beta patch or did no one see it before (okay, it isnt that likely to occure - when do you get your monk to attack enemys that are in a line before him? If someone can test it too - without beta would be best... posted it in the technical support subforum)

Edited March 17, 2016 by Reent

[Crucis]

Monks are frontline power houses, kind of like dual wielding full offensive fighter in heavy plate.......except they use fists and have some aoe spells.....in this game you can't roll with monks in light or no armor on higher difficulties, at least I couldn't but once I gave her some decent DR she is absolutely rocking the battlefield......I also couldn't play with Zahua effectively myself, the first time I played WM1.....

 

Give your Monk good DR, Might and Constitution and then watch him level the battlefield, I haven't tried retaliation on my monk yet but I am thinking it would work nicely on her, since she gets hit quite a lot. 

 

Yeah, one of the challenges with Monks is trying to find the right balance between having enough DR that you still get wounds and having too much DR which can cause you to get too few wounds (and perhaps slow your character down too much to be effective).  And when I played my monk PC, it seemed like a never ending adjustment because what might be the right balance at one point in the game might be wrong later on in the game.

[Ymarsakar]

Adjusting armor for encounters applies for the entire party, however. Higher DR armor is essential in the longer fights, but the people who use range weapons can usually go at max medium armor. -30 or -35.

 

Generally for fights against less than 5-6 enemies, medium or light armor can be good. Fights against higher level enemies that are few but strong, bosses, or more than 6+ equivalent enemy formations, might take some time and thus higher DR helps. The higher dr is a force multiplier. The more endurance and heals you get, the more effective it is, especially when it can turn a 2 hit ko into a 3 hit ko or a 1 hit ko into a 2 hit ko. It allows time for recovery and reaction or a tactical change up.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Ymarsakar